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Police and lethal force - what's so hard to understand?


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#101 Nich...

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 01:17 AM

I dare say people who have taken leave of their senses to the point of provoking the police to pull their gun might be suffering a mental illness a bit more severe than depression.

Oh, I didn't mean tot trivialise it, just point out that 'mental illness' is a massively broad descriptor.

Why would they shoot out a teenager with a knife's knees when they could just glomp him and hug him until he drops the knife?

Ummm, maybe because he has a knife?

To do the above you must close the range to contact. Ouch!

While being hugged you can still stab someone. Even with minimal wrist action you can work a knife into someones innards and wriggle it about without haveing to "stab".

As if. A big hug from someone in a nyancat costume, with the tune playing in the background, and it'd be all cuddles and giggles.

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#102 MrFriendly

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 07:40 AM

In a later article it says the dead guy was given a " clean bill of health " that is of course before he was tasered. He probably thought, "it's cool to resist as it's not a gun being aimed at me, plus I'm innocent "


I can only hope that NSW government and police wake up and realise these things can actually be lethal and should be treated as such before they start zapping people who dare glance at them sideways like they do in the US.

I remember a number of years ago Taser had the balls to try and have a coroners findings thrown out of court because it would fuck up it's marketing strategy that its product is non lethal. Of course, the man with the heart condition didn't die from the hundreds of thousands of volts being sent through his body, his heart just stopped because God willed it to be so. Never mind the sadist police officers felt the need to Taser the guy more than 20 fucking times even after he pleaded with them to stop and agreed to comply.

The reason I'd prefer cops to have guns is because people on either end of it have absolutely no illusions of the stakes. Unless of course they're just plain old crazy.
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#103 Hlass

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 07:53 AM

A large proportion of the population has or will or is dealing with depression.

It seems a little circular. What mentally stable person is going to provoke a bunch of cops to pull and use their guns?


Many do apparently. Only 40% of the people who get (fatally) shot are "mentally ill".

Edited by Hlass, 28 March 2012 - 07:55 AM.

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#104 Elfarch

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 10:39 AM

As if. A big hug from someone in a nyancat costume, with the tune playing in the background, and it'd be all cuddles and giggles.


I think you may be suffering from a potentionally fatal delusion.

These circumstances are likely to send me into a frothing homicidal frenzy. ;{p
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#105 xnatex

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 10:49 AM

I do think its funny how people think cops should have the aim of Max Payne mid dive in bullet time. Contrary to hollywood movies, pistols are actually not that accurate and are hard to aim. Cops have lot more on their plate other then being a gun slinging sharp shooter straight from the wild west

Edited by xnatex, 28 March 2012 - 10:51 AM.


#106 seehund

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 11:01 AM

I do think its funny how people think cops should have the aim of Max Payne mid dive in bullet time.

Contrary to hollywood movies, pistols are actually not that accurate and are hard to aim. Cops have lot more on their plate other then being a gun slinging sharp shooter straight from the wild west


Which is why most police shootings are usually fatal. If you're shooting with a handgun *at* someone, you aim for the largest part which is centre of mass.

/derp

#107 Kothos

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 11:07 AM

http://www.abc.net.a.../01/3443486.htm

It's not so easy to obey police commands when you're mentally ill, and it's not so easy to obey police commands when they don't give any commands, they just freak out and shoot.



You know, while I agree that what happened is fucked up, after 20 minutes of that show, I had to stop. There was no way it was going to be unbiased reporting when they spend the first half of the show making you feel sorry for the guy that died.


Fair point, I got sucked in when watching it because I didn't know what it was about until half-way through.

Still a sad conclusion, the saddest of which is that the cops won't own up to the fact that they just make mistakes sometimes.
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#108 Kothos

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 11:35 AM

I may be mistaken, but thats not how i'm reading it. From his last post, it appears he wants cops to "Understand WHY someone threatened with their own death chooses that path", which would lead to the cops not shooting in that situation - and perhaps adopting the pepper spray vs sword wielding maniac showdown you mentioned.

Again, i could be mistaken but thats how he comes across to me.


Understanding is always good though.

In the link I mentioned earlier, the basic story was this:

- mentally ill man tries to commit suicide by stabbing himself in the chest
- father stops him and calls ambulance and cops (or maybe the ambos do)
- cops come and clear everyone out, father, ambos etc
- one cop watches while other cop talks to ambos/father
- man gets up, grabs knife and starts stabbing himself again, with his back to everyone
- cop freaks out, calls other cop
- other cop enters, freaks out and shoots him

In the "when to shoot handbook" it may well have been written that this kind of situation is dangerous enough for cops to shoot (I don't know one way or the other), but it could have said that instead, the cops should NOT take charge and kick everyone out, and listen to the experts on hand at the time, who can tell them if the person is dangerous or not. This is why understanding and training might help.

I understand now that they also target for the largest center of mass for accuracy reasons. So why aren't they continually trained so they can make disabling shots such as the knee-caps?


Unfortunately this is practically impossible.

As an exercise, pick your favourite type of football, and go and watch their star kicker/forward/whatever kick goals or tries in practice. He'll get them every time.

Now watch a few games and see him miss easy shots under pressure.

Now imagine the pressure is also time pressure, and that his life is in danger.

In a sudden firefight, even crach shots can miss completely at point-blank range.

E.g. When the Iranian revolution started, the Shah's private bodyguards had all joined the revolutionaries. When they turned on him to shoot him, he managed to do a runner, and they ALL missed, even with multiple shots from 3m away. AIUI he was lucky enough to get to a car and get away, but it shows you what pressure and distraction can do even to experts.
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#109 eveln

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 10:51 PM

In a later article it says the dead guy was given a " clean bill of health " that is of course before he was tasered. He probably thought, "it's cool to resist as it's not a gun being aimed at me, plus I'm innocent "


I can only hope that NSW government and police wake up and realise these things can actually be lethal and should be treated as such before they start zapping people who dare glance at them sideways like they do in the US.

I remember a number of years ago Taser had the balls to try and have a coroners findings thrown out of court because it would fuck up it's marketing strategy that its product is non lethal. Of course, the man with the heart condition didn't die from the hundreds of thousands of volts being sent through his body, his heart just stopped because God willed it to be so. Never mind the sadist police officers felt the need to Taser the guy more than 20 fucking times even after he pleaded with them to stop and agreed to comply.

The reason I'd prefer cops to have guns is because people on either end of it have absolutely no illusions of the stakes. Unless of course they're just plain old crazy.

Ohhh there's no need for guns... not with the new beaut model !

"One man who is certain of their value is George Hateley, who distributes Tasers in Australia.
He says officers do not always hit their target with the first shock.
"In some cases - and people have to understand this - these incidents are very emotional, a lot of adrenalin is pumping and sometimes an officer may miss," he said.
"If he does miss he's got a follow-up shot immediately which is really important in a situation where it could be dependent on someone's life."

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#110 xnatex

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:00 AM

who would have also shot these kids as they where running people over on the side walk ?

http://www.heraldsun...2-1226335920552

Edited by xnatex, 23 April 2012 - 10:01 AM.


#111 Cummings

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:17 AM

I've got no issue with shooting an offending driver in order to save an innocent pedestrian. Tasers and spray are pretty useless when the offenders are behind glass, and they have less chance of subduing the offender quickly enough to save the victim. The actions after the shots though seemed too rough. Was he resisting that much (after being shot) that he needed to be hit in the head rather than to try and stop the obvious bleeding? Even then, I think it's important to understand that the police officer should not have to place their lives in unnecessary danger for the sake of an offender, guilty or otherwise.
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#112 unco_tomato

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:40 AM

I agree with everything the Police are alleged to have done in the story posted by Xnatex. In the same situation I would have shot the driver to stop him further injuring or killing pedestrians. We don't know what caused the officer to punch the offender in the head, for all we know he was resisting further force from the Police and it was necessary to keep him down. If it was simply a punch in the head because the officer felt that shooting him wasn't enough, then yer, arguably over the top, but it would be hard to not punch a dick-head like this teenager. Sounds like their parents are real fuckwits too, it's not too hard to see where their kids went wrong. Blaming the Police for saving a trapped womans life from their lunatic children, if the kids don't get charged for any of this (being minors) I sure as hell hope the parents do.
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#113 smakme7757

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:48 PM

Sometimes it's hard to say.

I remember a story where a 15 year old boy was shot dead by police. The boy was thrashing at the police with 2 knives. He was shot dead because the police said they wouldn't have been able to bring him under control with suffering serious injuries to themselves.

In a situation like that what do you do when numerous warnings don't stop a voilent out of control person with deadly weapons..?

You can choose not to shoot the kid and try to disarm him yourself and risk getting a knife in the neck (15 year olds aren't that small anymore. Most people forget this, they think of a little innocent boy.) or you can shoot him and risk geting fired due to public outrage.

I would hope that had the opportunity arrised to subdue the boy without shooting him the police woud have taken that action. Unfortunately they shot him dead.

what do you do?


I might also add on here that police are not allowed to fire wounding shots and are taught to shoot for the chest. The priary reason is if they MISS they might then shoot some poor pedestrian 100m down the road.

Edited by smakme7757, 23 April 2012 - 06:50 PM.


#114 eveln

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:17 PM

who would have also shot these kids as they where running people over on the side walk ?

http://www.heraldsun...2-1226335920552

No xnatex. Their car pinned one woman under the wheel. All the other pedestrians managed to get out of the way.

The article doesn't say as much ... but I'm assuming the driver stopped the car when the woman was pinned ... I'm also assuming that's why the foot patrol did not actually do anything till the woman was hit.
I can't understand why they ( police ) waited till someone was hurt, after all the car was travelling on the footpath.

What good would tasering or spray have done, unless the police were actually able to aim the taser or spray through an open window, if the window/s were open ?

I wouldn't know how I'd react unless I was there.

What would you have done xnatex ?

Edited by eveln, 23 April 2012 - 07:27 PM.

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#115 Sir_Substance

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:25 PM

Here's a hot tip: If police are pointing guns at you and are telling you to do something - do it.
If you don't know how dangerous the situation is and get killed trying to fight back, then im sorry but the gene pool will be better of without you.

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Edited by Sir_Substance, 23 April 2012 - 07:26 PM.

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#116 xnatex

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:23 PM

I would have let them do what ever they want and blame what ever damage they do on society and its lack of support for troubled children, then I would sue the NSW government for damages

#117 Hlass

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:32 PM

I would have let them do what ever they want and blame what ever damage they do on society and its lack of support for troubled children, then I would sue the NSW government for damages


Slow down and try to make some sense when you are ranting.

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains

And the women come down to cut up what remains

Roll on your rifle, blow out your brains

And go to your God like a soldier.


#118 turgid

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:07 PM

who would have also shot these kids as they where running people over on the side walk ?

http://www.heraldsun...2-1226335920552

Problem is, it wasn't fatal.

#119 xnatex

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 05:22 PM

who would have also shot these kids as they where running people over on the side walk ?

http://www.heraldsun...2-1226335920552

Problem is, it wasn't fatal.


and even still people criticise the use and say they should have tried to shoot the tyres... max payne bullet time included




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