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NBN - Is it too expensive?


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#2041 Nich...

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 02:47 PM

ursobadleo


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#2042 Leonid

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 03:50 PM

ursobadleo


Give me my edit rights back and I'll fix it :)
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#2043 Nich...

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 03:57 PM

Try posting it again and I'll delete the double : )


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#2044 Leonid

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:05 PM

Try posting it again and I'll delete the double : )


Wouldnt it just be easier to give me my edit rights back so I can correct it and future autocorrect bugger-ups?
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#2045 Master_Scythe

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:16 PM

Nope, I disagree with all of your counterpoints entirely.

None of that was demand.

It was all oversupply leading people to pseudo demand.

BIG difference.

 

I had typed a 400 word response, but honestly you're blinded by the obvious IMO; Just taking one example:

 

-People upload 10MB photos at 25MP to show on a 4~5" Screen.

Was because some secret society of nerds told them that a 4" photo needed to be 25MP or some shit?

You're kidding yourself.

Who demanded this?

There was no demand for 25MP 4" photos. 25MP billboards? maybe.... but not uploads to facebook.

It was an oversupply.

That oversupply created the pseudo demand for more bandwidth.

 

More bandwidth wasn't supplied, which THEN let manufacturers think "hey, lets increase the MP count arbitrarily through a tiny lens for lolz!"

Cameras came first.

 

 

CPU's the same.

Funny how Notepad, a program that's practically identical takes up less resources in Windows 95 than in Windows 10, huh?

CERTAINLY demand, couldn't possibly be oversupply of computing power leading to lazier coding.

 

 

What about the Windows DEV who admitted one of the games is programmed entirely in LOLCODE couldn't possibly be that there is an oversupply of processing power, resulting in people wasting cycles on high level languages? Nah people demanded the program be written with 'CanHaz std.io'

 

Besides, if money is your only argument, it's moot.

Cost, unless it bankrupts the entire Australian Economy shouldn't come into consideration.

I said it before, and I'll say it again; They're going to do this ONCE, look at Japan, look at South Korea, look at (most) of the USA.

Do it once, do it right.

Cost is NOT an issue; we're one of the highest taxed countries, use it.

 

You're fucking the entire infrastructure for your great great great grandkids.


Edited by Master_Scythe, 15 November 2017 - 05:18 PM.

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#2046 Nich...

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:43 PM

I like how you seem to think anything not in asm and hitting bare metal is lazy programming.


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#2047 @~thehung

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 06:00 PM


MS, you started veering off planet earth with the national fridge bandwidth emergency, but this line

It's not uncommon for someone to be watching youtube, when someone rings the doorbell. It's not a stretch at all.


damn near killed me XD

i agree about the costs though. waiting for the most cost-effective spend possible has its own costs. we will get it all back.

and whilst ive always wanted NBNCo to target FTTH/B/P as an end goal, ive never had any issue with FTTN being the logical first step. its like if you were settling a new land. of course youre going to rationalise the costs of arterial roads first.
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#2048 Master_Scythe

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:14 AM

I like how you seem to think anything not in asm and hitting bare metal is lazy programming.

 

Yeah, I'm very oldschool I know.

It's from my father; He believes a boat is shit unless the wood for the hull is hand bent over a few months; won't buy a prefabbed hull.

If it's important, I'm a very strong believer in doing it once, doing it right, regardless of time\cost.

I enjoy high level programming, but I admit, it's because I'm being lazy and don't want to go back to Basic or learn assembly.

I guess it's the equivalent of why my father bends the hulls but still buys pre cut wood; there's a level of 'sensible convenience' you're just silly to reject.

 

MS, you started veering off planet earth with the national fridge bandwidth emergency, but this line
 

It's not uncommon for someone to be watching youtube, when someone rings the doorbell. It's not a stretch at all.


damn near killed me XD

i agree about the costs though. waiting for the most cost-effective spend possible has its own costs. we will get it all back.

and whilst ive always wanted NBNCo to target FTTH/B/P as an end goal, ive never had any issue with FTTN being the logical first step. its like if you were settling a new land. of course youre going to rationalise the costs of arterial roads first.

 

 

Yeah well, ghoulish overkill is a gift, lol. I've been here a while :P

People are aware I swing wide and reach far for examples. haha.

 

But in all seriousness, most modern display homes have been conned into the 'Ring' door ecosystem, and that data stream from them is woefully uncompressed.

And since it goes to your mobile phone, unless you're running wifi at home, it has to exit your WAN and come back via 4G. I'm sure they'll fix the protocol up some more, but in its first iteration it was pretty funny. In early days, You'd saturate a wifi link with it, let alone WAN.

 

No argument that it sounds fucking ridiculous, but when you work customer facing for as long as I have you learn that it's those exact issues that geeks (who you'd expect would want more) are OK with! They understand bandwidth.

However the average Joe will be on the phone instantly, and 'Rage Quitting' your company when you tell him "Yep, your movie will drop quality if someone video calls you".

I hate it, I think it's ludicrous. But it's the lay persons mindset.

 

If someone wants tech, to their minds, it's either flawless or I should have slit my wrists and bled to death rather than provide it to them.

There is no middle ground.

 

I'm probably just disillusioned to the whole FTTN thing because of the tens of sites we manage, none of them can sustain their promised speed, and even QoS is so poor, that phone calls drop if you flood the connection.

Until I see it work for anyone I know, rather than just 'hear stories about it working in magic land, a whole state away' I'll continue to push for "The Best" regardless of time or cost commitment.


Edited by Master_Scythe, 16 November 2017 - 09:23 AM.

Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

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#2049 aliali

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 08:11 AM


Besides, if money is your only argument, it's moot.

.

Well considering the cost of FTTN/HFC has blown through the roof compared to original claims, FTTP makes even more sense as the cost of FTTP installation is going down around the world, and even the original NBN where finding major cost savings in the FTTP rollout.

http://www.smh.com.a...904-10cgdg.html

 

Add in the OPEX costs of FTTP are several orders of magnitude less than FTTN, is much much more reliable and is easily expanded to higher speeds with reasonable trivial upgrades and FTTN is economically a dead end and a complete waste of money.

 

 

This was known right back in 2013 so hardly new news.

https://www.ebmag.co...g-to-all-fiber#

 

 

https://www.theregis..._going_allfttp/


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#2050 Jeruselem

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 12:01 PM

Nbn are running more optic cable in Darwin city. Contractors are feeding more cable into the ducts.

Having trouble with A [?]OS11.1?

 

2018 FIFA World Cup Russia - Australia in but Italy, Chile, Netherlands, USA = FAIL.


#2051 @~thehung

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 02:36 PM

to be fair, aliali, comparative population density must be a significant factor effecting how compelling those examples are with regard to australia.


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#2052 @~thehung

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 02:56 PM

But in all seriousness, most modern display homes have been conned into the 'Ring' door ecosystem, and that data stream from them is woefully uncompressed.


a very poorly optimised door bell system with ramifications for 0.01% of the population makes for a very weak example of national need indeed.

however, i will give you this: it is an example of many products that want to exist in the mainstream. i mean, why not have slapdash real time HD multimedia comms flying around from home to remote server to phone if youve got the bandwidth headroom to ensure the experience is seamless?
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#2053 aliali

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 04:32 PM

to be fair, aliali, comparative population density must be a significant factor effecting how compelling those examples are with regard to australia.

Sure our suburbs tend to be less dense than a lot of other countries (battler blocks and the like) but this makes FTTP an even better option than FTTN because line distance is a huge issue with FTTN, not so much with FTTP. So with the average Aus building block size you need far more nodes per sq KM than other more densely populated cities.

As far as MDUs and high density towers yes FTTB probably does make more sense than FTTP because rewiring these sorts of buildings with fibre to each apartment would be a bit of a nightmare. And that's ignoring the whole access/strata/management issue.

 

As far as intercity or intertown backhaul goes this is the same for every technology.


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#2054 @~thehung

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 04:46 PM


but they are not mutually exclusive are they? i would imagine the cost of extending to FTTC/P/B/H from 'too many' FTTN nodes would be minimal/negligible/justifiable, no?
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#2055 aliali

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 10:05 PM

but they are not mutually exclusive are they? i would imagine the cost of extending to FTTC/P/B/H from 'too many' FTTN nodes would be minimal/negligible/justifiable, no?

Well from what I have read FTTN cannot be changed over to FTTP at the node, the FTTP network has to go back quite a bit deeper in to the network (to the fibre access node?). This has been born out by the few people who have managed to get NBN to do an individual premises switch despite the cost. They are not connected to the node but back further in the network.

 

Add in that an FTTN network layout is really not suitable for FTTP (far less cabinets needed for starters) and "upgrading" is a massive misnomer. Total bypass surgery would be more like it.

 

I think FTTdP (FTTC) can be upgraded to FTTP but I don't know the ins and outs of it. I would assume sufficient fibre would have to be run to the distribution point so the DP could be bypassed and then an optical splitter fitted next to the FTTdP, then fibre run to the premises. Still it's getting awfully complex with a typical FTTC  distribution point only serving 4 to 8 connections and each DP having to be reverse powered from the customers premises. 

https://www.itnews.c...or-fttdp-451943

 

it's all so bloody messy and hodge podge, without even taking in to consideration the complete balls up of the money spent on the Optus HFC network that has been abandoned because it was to degraded to be worthwhile repairing.

 

So you have to ask how many times do we want to rip out or bypass an existing network to upgrade it?

If the Coalition had stuck with FTTP they could have claimed any cost reductions due to the improved rollout procedures where their doing and they could have gone all superior on having rescued the ALPs effort from failure.

Instead we are being lumbered with an already outdated technology that will cost a lot of money just to keep operating, has very limited revenue growth due to technical limitations and will need replacing in the not too distant future.

 

See this is the thing with FTTP, speed upgrades are a relatively simple matter of replacing the optical splitters with newer fancier units and replacing the Fibre NTDs in the premises, the fibre itself does not need touching.

 

This

https://www.itnews.c...ith-fttc-460212

shows just how craptacular the FTTN rollout has been. If it was so good then NBN would not be switching to FTTC in so many areas.

It's basically an admission of failure of the technology no matter how you look at it.

 

Even if FTTC works reasonably well we are left with paying for, administering and maintaining a complete mess of different technologies with varying performances and maintenance requirements.

 

It was all so clean and simple under the old plan. FTTP for urban, FW for regional and Satellite for remote areas.


Edited by aliali, 18 November 2017 - 10:06 PM.

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#2056 Master_Scythe

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:17 AM

We have another 2 sites go live with NBN this week.

One is achieving a nice 300kbps down, and 100kbps up. (paying for 25/1)

and One is achieving 5 down, and 0.2 up (paying for 25/1)

 

Also, when I phone the ISP, apparently this new vDSL thing (thanks to the vectoring)  doesn't support 'noise profiles' and not even local SNR tweaking.

This means that BOTH of those sites are SIGNIFICANTLY worse off, than they were with my custom Billion ADSL2 solution (High SNR profile with the ISP, falsely reporting low SNR at the modem == reliable 'Fastest possible low speed' ADSL; both were on a solid 4 down 0.5 up before).

 

As I said, I'm OK with there being a discussion about this; but so far, I'm yet to see a positive outcome of FTTN

Also, when\if I do, if it's not better than the old ADSL, I'll still sit there asking why we bothered.

I'm still convinced we're not going to "Re Do this" rollout within the next 5 years, so I can't accept money as being any form of limit to this; it has to work, and be better.

 

Even worse though, we recently had a backhoe go through a fiber run (to the node) in Ipswich; turns out, unlike Telstra, NBNCo are NOT held to a consumer level\facing SLA of any sort.

Meaning that it didn't matter that we went for 6 weeks as a large organization without Internet. And unlike Telstra, we can't claim for loss of business due to breaching SLA on a business account.


Edited by Master_Scythe, 20 November 2017 - 10:19 AM.

Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#2057 aliali

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 04:06 PM

Damn you are having a sucky run M_S.

As far as the FTTN/VDSL speeds go a lot of people on the whirlpool forum are getting significant speed improvements if the phone wiring is tidied up.

That is all phone points except one are disconnected and the remaining point goes straight to the outside world with no joints except at the exterior joint box/NBP (if present).

Main thread is here

https://forums.whirl...s.cfm?t=2598431


Edited by aliali, 20 November 2017 - 04:06 PM.

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#2058 chrisg

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 04:38 PM

Always the way with copper as I'm sure you know Ali, the less joins the better and the less unused spurs the same.

 

Fibre had it's own issues for a time when 50 and 62.5 vied for dominance, if you were not careful and mixed the two you had 2db of loss at each interconnect, fortunately we seem to have settled on 50 Micron and 62.5 is disappearing. It's just as well the fibre manufacturers are pretty religious about labeling the jacket, or you would never know, until your loss results looked poor :)

 

Cheers


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#2059 Master_Scythe

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 09:21 AM

Damn you are having a sucky run M_S.

As far as the FTTN/VDSL speeds go a lot of people on the whirlpool forum are getting significant speed improvements if the phone wiring is tidied up.

That is all phone points except one are disconnected and the remaining point goes straight to the outside world with no joints except at the exterior joint box/NBP (if present).

Main thread is here

https://forums.whirl...s.cfm?t=2598431

 

Great in theory; and for me personally I'd be able to do that.

But when we're talking a business with 30+ phone points running over 'oldschool' PABX it's not going to happen.

 

Actually..... I don't see why it wouldn't be happening already....

Because the lines themselves are now 'Virtual' so all the PABX system goes into the NBN router, not connected to the initial copper run....

Most of our buildings have needed new copper from the street; since all lines are ISDN.

 

Also, To be fair, we only have about 25 sites out of 150+ on NBN so far, but none of them have managed a usable speed.

So it's not even a 25% 'fail' yet... but it's still not good.

 

The cost to the business is fucking ridiculous too, as we quickly send out Unlimited 4G modems;

Thank fuck for Vivid ($90pm Unlimited 12/1).

The only reason we're keeping an NBN plan at all is because we have to, to have working bulk phone lines; ISDN is no longer an option once converted.

 

It's been nearly 6 months since our first site converted with less than 1 down 1 up, and NBNCo keep telling us "They'll get to it", but as I said, no customer focused SLA, so we're expecting within the next 3 years to see someone (and for once I'm not joking).

 

OK, the town has no roads, and a weekly offroad bus only.

That said, this never stopped Telstra from flying in, within their 3 day SLA;

NBNCo? Well.... still waiting.


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#2060 aliali

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 10:18 AM

 

But when we're talking a business with 30+ phone points running over 'oldschool' PABX it's not going to happen.

 

Actually..... I don't see why it wouldn't be happening already....

Because the lines themselves are now 'Virtual' so all the PABX system goes into the NBN router, not connected to the initial copper run....

Most of our buildings have needed new copper from the street; since all lines are ISDN.

That sounds ok then. What I was referring to is the phone line comes in and splits off to multiple sockets that are all still connected to the outside world, so to speak, so you could set your VDSL modem up on any socket you wanted.

If all the phone ports connect back to a PABX on the customer side of the modem then this is not going to affect FTTN speeds at all.

 

 

It's been nearly 6 months since our first site converted with less than 1 down 1 up, and NBNCo keep telling us "They'll get to it", but as I said, no customer focused SLA, so we're expecting within the next 3 years to see someone (and for once I'm not joking).

 

OK, the town has no roads, and a weekly offroad bus only.

That said, this never stopped Telstra from flying in, within their 3 day SLA;

NBNCo? Well.... still waiting.

 

Ye NBN seems to have forgotten all about maintenance and customer support. Seems they are totally geared as an installation company with no thought to fault repair/maintenance. Suppose that would cost money and adversely affect their bottom line and rollout stats.

Doesn't matter if those connected have a barely usable or totally unusable connection, you are connected so a tick for their checklist.


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