Jump to content


Photo

NBN - Is it too expensive?


  • Please log in to reply
2069 replies to this topic

#41 Guest_xyzzy frobozz_*

Guest_xyzzy frobozz_*
  • Guests

Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:02 PM

I'm old enough to remember getting a 9600 baud modem. At the time 14,000 baud (from memory) modems were available but, at the time, nobody much bothered with them because they were very expensive and, well, nobody will EVER need that much bandwidth..... That was only about 20 years ago. Hell, 56k was only about 13 years ago....

Edited by xyzzy frobozz, 07 August 2013 - 07:06 PM.


#42 Cybes

Cybes

    Titan

  • Atomican
  • 18,055 posts
  • Location:Where I am

Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:20 PM

I'm old enough to remember getting a 9600 baud modem. At the time 14,000 baud (from memory) modems were available but, at the time, nobody much bothered with them because they were very expensive and, well, nobody will EVER need that much bandwidth.....

That was only about 20 years ago. Hell, 56k was only about 13 years ago....

My first was a 2400. Wanted quite a bit before that, but couldn't afford it - which was probably just as well considering how much time there was between the 300 and the 2400, and how much they were asking back then.

"Reality does not care what you think." - Dr Richard Feynman
"There is no "I" in team." - "True.  I will not be found in any team."


#43 AccessDenied

AccessDenied

    Guru

  • Hero
  • 12,482 posts

Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:22 PM

My first was a 2400. I was a Sysop at a BBS that had a blisteringly faster 14.4k I remember downloading Jazz Jackrabbit on 2400 AD
I can make my own woggle! Bet you can't woggle yours.

#44 Guest_xyzzy frobozz_*

Guest_xyzzy frobozz_*
  • Guests

Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:23 PM

I'm old enough to remember getting a 9600 baud modem. At the time 14,000 baud (from memory) modems were available but, at the time, nobody much bothered with them because they were very expensive and, well, nobody will EVER need that much bandwidth.....

That was only about 20 years ago. Hell, 56k was only about 13 years ago....

My first was a 2400. Wanted quite a bit before that, but couldn't afford it - which was probably just as well considering how much time there was between the 300 and the 2400, and how much they were asking back then.

Oh jeez I have no idea, I was still pretty young - dad handled all that stuff. I do remember them not being "cheap", but I really have no idea.

I miss the old ring tone, squeal, higher pitched squeal, squelch, beep - CONNECTED!

#45 aliali

aliali

    Titan

  • Super Hero
  • 24,411 posts

Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:40 PM

I miss the old ring tone, squeal, higher pitched squeal, squelch, beep - CONNECTED!

Or in my case for 56k dialup squeal, higher pitched squeal, squelch, beep - CONNECTED - DROPPED and repeat. That was till I figured out how to use AT commands on the Swann external modem to force it to connect at 33.6K where it would generally be fairly stable and this was only 13 years ago.
God knows how much Telstra spent on my line complaints trying to fix induced noise from electric fences and bad joints. Had Telstra bods out here at least every month till they sent up a senior tech from Hobart who spent most of a day on my line alone. Finally got it sorted with several noise coils placed at strategic places on the phone line to reduce the hums and clicks so I could hold a 33.6K connection.
All came off when I went 128K ISDN of course.

Of course you are my bright little star,

I've miles and miles of files pretty files of your forefather's fruit,

and now to suit our great computer. You're magnetic ink.


#46 Caelum

Caelum

    Titan

  • Hero
  • 17,009 posts

Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:01 PM

&fx3.... Sad that i still remember it...
6hax

#47 Cybes

Cybes

    Titan

  • Atomican
  • 18,055 posts
  • Location:Where I am

Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:20 PM

&fx3....



Sad that i still remember it...

+++
ATAT

<murk> I seem to recall changing this section a bunch anyway.

ATH0
ATZ



And no, I have no idea why the Attention line repeated, just that it did.

"Reality does not care what you think." - Dr Richard Feynman
"There is no "I" in team." - "True.  I will not be found in any team."


#48 Caelum

Caelum

    Titan

  • Hero
  • 17,009 posts

Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:14 PM

Star wars, duh.
6hax

#49 Cybes

Cybes

    Titan

  • Atomican
  • 18,055 posts
  • Location:Where I am

Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:12 PM

Star wars, duh.

LOL!

Now I'm picturing the startup sequence for Imperial Walkers:

Masters On. Fuel on crossfeed. Pumps on. Sensors on. Gyros to speed. Comms oDOOOO-KEEEEEEEEEE-KSHSHSHSHSHSHSHSHS

"Reality does not care what you think." - Dr Richard Feynman
"There is no "I" in team." - "True.  I will not be found in any team."


#50 fredzfrog

fredzfrog

    Guru

  • Hero
  • 12,597 posts

Posted 08 August 2013 - 12:15 AM

Come on Mac Dude, You havn't been retired that long mate! Although in either case, more fiber is a good thing. :P :D Sure, faster porn, uncles named torrence, etc etc, but with education, imagine the colaborations between campuses, post grads in perth and sydney working on the same paper, super high def live video confrences with outback school kids to.. museums? rocket launches? the syncotron? parlament? imagine the boost to science literacy if the csiro sent a "Chris Hadfield"to the ISS to talk to and inspire kids. sure, we can now, but what schoolkid wants to see a streamed 240p blurry vid of that? I could go on.. SCIENCE! EDUCATION! But your all probebly bored about that now.
Increases your chance of love by 75.3%

#51 kikz

kikz

    Titan

  • Hero
  • 19,502 posts
  • Location:Your Mums' place ;)

Posted 08 August 2013 - 07:27 AM

Ugh. So just found out i need to get my house restumped as well as the roof fixed. The restump is going to cost $15k, and i need a roof or i am pretty much fucked. Yeah, i know i will save money in the long run if i get the whole roof done now but i really cant afford it, so a roof patch will have to do while i ensure my house is liveable for me and my family.

#52 TinBane

TinBane

    Super Hero

  • Mod
  • 21,537 posts

Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:05 PM

Just playing devil's advocate from both sides: If you have to borrow the 10 grand, then the longer you defer the 20 grand subsequent cost, the better it looks from a financials perspective. However, if you are going to "save" a lot on that 10 grand, then odds are you are doing it by deferring it a lot longer than you are publicly acknowledging. As in, it's not going to be 5 years till you fix the rest of the roof, you might be limping along for another 10+...
Romans 10:3 absit iniuria verbis

#53 .:Cyb3rGlitch:.

.:Cyb3rGlitch:.

    Hero

  • Mod
  • 21,368 posts

Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:42 PM

Having a fast, reliable and scalable Internet connection has another major benefit. You can replace TV stations with an on-demand streaming equivalent and reclaim the frequencies for other uses such as mobile broadband.

"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan
"I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it." - Mark Twain
 
An open mind is willing to consider new ideas, while provisionally accepting those backed by empirical evidence, and provisionally rejecting those without.


#54 DaCraw

DaCraw

    Master

  • Atomican
  • 599 posts

Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:40 PM

Just playing devil's advocate from both sides:

If you have to borrow the 10 grand, then the longer you defer the 20 grand subsequent cost, the better it looks from a financials perspective.

However, if you are going to "save" a lot on that 10 grand, then odds are you are doing it by deferring it a lot longer than you are publicly acknowledging. As in, it's not going to be 5 years till you fix the rest of the roof, you might be limping along for another 10+...


Well, don't forget that the cost of borrowing does vary, and is dirt cheap right now. Assume that you can borrow the $10k now at 2% /year (non-compounded for ease of maths) for 5 years, but if you wait 5 years the interest rate will be 5%. (in reality the difference in likely borrowing costs is actually larger than this.) So you're looking at $11k now or $24K later.

Deferring the cost also saves more if the inflation rate is high. As it stands, it looks likely that it will remain low for quite some time.

As Keynes said, the boom, not the bust, is the time for austerity. Right now we have a weak(ish) economy (that could use the stimulus), very low borrowing costs, and low expected inflation. These are ideal conditions for a major infrastructure project. That may not be the case in 15 years when they get around to completing the transition.
Avatar adapted from www.xkcd.com

#55 chrisg

chrisg

    Immortal

  • Super Hero
  • 34,750 posts
  • Location:Perth

Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:58 PM

Now THAT, is an interesting and totally valid economic argument, I would also note that the NBN in its current form is already generating defraying revenue - I know, my office, well, I quit last week, is paying for superb service :) Cheers
"Specialisation is for Insects" RAH

#56 Guest_xyzzy frobozz_*

Guest_xyzzy frobozz_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 August 2013 - 07:54 PM

I'll say this - we are connected to fibre here in our part of Western Australia, and I no longer think about the internet, I just do it. Whatever I want, whenever I want. Even with a good ADSL2+ connection, where we lived literally next door to the exchange, I couldn't say that. I'd have to plan certain activities at certain times depending on bandwidth and network congestion.

Now I just fire up the computer and off I go.

Posted Image

Edited by xyzzy frobozz, 08 August 2013 - 07:56 PM.


#57 Caelum

Caelum

    Titan

  • Hero
  • 17,009 posts

Posted 08 August 2013 - 09:04 PM

Not NBN... But NBN speeds... and i tell you, it does make a massive difference to the 'usability' of the 'net, as frobozz mentions above...

Posted Image
[Limited to 100mbit throughput as it is daisychained through a voip phone]

At home i get maybe 4mbit on a great day... typically 2mbit, and frequently 2mbit with lots of dropouts. I live in the inner suburbs of perth...
6hax

#58 Mac Dude

Mac Dude

    Immortal

  • Super Hero
  • 36,561 posts
  • Location:Melbourne

Posted 08 August 2013 - 09:21 PM

Just playing devil's advocate from both sides:

If you have to borrow the 10 grand, then the longer you defer the 20 grand subsequent cost, the better it looks from a financials perspective.

However, if you are going to "save" a lot on that 10 grand, then odds are you are doing it by deferring it a lot longer than you are publicly acknowledging. As in, it's not going to be 5 years till you fix the rest of the roof, you might be limping along for another 10+...


but if you only have to borrow 2/3rd the amount because the roof, for people like myself, is not going to be any better, why replace it all straight away?

Do you always replace all four tyres on your car at the same time? Of course you don't because why would you replace something that works? Sure, if you do replace all four tyres rather than just the ones that need it you could probably notice the difference in grip - you cant beat the feeling of all new tyres. And, it may be cheaper per tyre because you may get a bigger discount than on just buying one or two. But most people aren't going to replace all four because of the opportunity cost.


Enough with the analogies :)

Replace what doesn't work or doesn't exist, maintain what makes sense to maintain.

My only beef with the NBN has always been that the existing cable network may be serviceable for quite a number of years to come. People who have access to that should be at the bottom of any new technology rollout, where it makes design sense.

Do we need a national broadband network? YES! Do we need it all to be new? Was there any analysis done of the existing capability?
(The answer to the second question is obviously no, otherwise some of the issues that have come up in the past 6 months would have already been raised)

I don't even know why we are discussing it, no matter who gets in after September the NBN will continue...

Edited by Mac Dude, 08 August 2013 - 09:25 PM.

Karl Kruszelnicki - No, I’m fully prepared to believe in the “Church of God the Utterly Indifferent who sets the universe going and says you’re on your own kids.

#59 DaCraw

DaCraw

    Master

  • Atomican
  • 599 posts

Posted 08 August 2013 - 10:04 PM

but if you only have to borrow 2/3rd the amount because the roof, for people like myself, is not going to be any better, why replace it all straight away?

Do you always replace all four tyres on your car at the same time? Of course you don't because why would you replace something that works? Sure, if you do replace all four tyres rather than just the ones that need it you could probably notice the difference in grip - you cant beat the feeling of all new tyres. And, it may be cheaper per tyre because you may get a bigger discount than on just buying one or two. But most people aren't going to replace all four because of the opportunity cost.


The problem with that analogy is that it implies that it costs the same to replace one tire now and the others later as it does to replace all four now. Suppose instead that each tire costs $100, but the mechanic charges a fee of $250 to even look at your car (and the tires can only be changed by this mechanic) regardless of how many tires he changes. Suppose also that your front tires need replacing now, while the back ones are pretty worn down but could make it for another year. Do you replace all four now ($650) or the front ones now and the back ones later ($450 now, $450 in a year, for a total of $900)?

To take that one step further, suppose that the interest rate is low now, but is likely to be much higher in a year. Do you lock all of the expense in at the low rate, or do you wait a year and pay the higher rate on the back tires?

Edited by DaCraw, 09 August 2013 - 02:16 AM.

Avatar adapted from www.xkcd.com

#60 aliali

aliali

    Titan

  • Super Hero
  • 24,411 posts

Posted 08 August 2013 - 11:15 PM

Do you always replace all four tyres on your car at the same time?

using that analogy Mac the copper network is bald on all four corners with only the spare having some tread and that's a pretty perished 80Km/h limited temporary use spare tyre.
:P

As far as HFC goes it is close to the same boat as the PSTN network. Both HFC owners have spent minimal dollars on maintenance, and from all reports the Optus HFC in particular is nasty being way over subscribed.

As far as

People who have access to that should be at the bottom of any new technology rollout, where it makes design sense.

Well a lot of MDUs in particular can't get HFC despite being in HFC areas so most if not all HFC areas need some FTTH run, so rather than doing a building here and there and then going back to expand the FTTH coverage it makes sense to do the whole area in one hit.

Of course you are my bright little star,

I've miles and miles of files pretty files of your forefather's fruit,

and now to suit our great computer. You're magnetic ink.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users