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What does Linux need to steal market share?


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#41 Sir_Substance

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 04:15 PM

But you also seem to be saying that people are lazy for not wanting to be "computer people", which is exactly the viewpoint keeping desktop Linux in the domain of nerds.

That's a more elegant way of saying what I was trying to say, but it goes further then that. For example, CAD designers are computer people, but they don't want to do any of that stuff either.

Even as a software engineer, I don't want to play with that crap. When I just want to do my job, I want things to just work.
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#42 CptnChrysler

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:05 PM

Sorry Sir_Substance I disagree.

If the linux alternate method worked, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Package managers do have graphical front ends users can use, but there's a problem.

The linux method does work - it's just not a great fit for some people. Just as Windows or OSX are not right for everyone.

Not everything is on the ubuntu package manager. The ongoing issue with linux has always been this:

The instant you try to do something non-standard, you'll find yourself at the command line.

I had a big spiel below this explaining how lots of things aren't on the package system and so forth, which I've just deleted because it boils down to that.

Adding new sites to the package manager requires the command line. Installing debs requires the command line.

Wrong!
There are graphical tools to install .deb packages - gdebi for example
You can add repos via the synaptic, cli not required - https://help.ubuntu....sitories/Ubuntu
I do however recognise that the further you go from mainstream apps the more likely you are to need the command line at some point. Thing is - the further you are from mainstream the more likely you are comfortable with a CLI.
I detest the standard Windows app installers I often encounter these days, almost everything is packing payloads of browser toolbars or other crapware that you need to ensure you opt out of. Or is asking to change your browser settings or trying to change your defaults. - JUST INSTALL THIS PROGRAM AND DON"T FUCK WITH THE REST OF MY SYSTEM OR INSTALL ANY OTHER CRAPWARE DAMMIT..
I much prefer the linux way of installing: on my ArchLinux netbook:" # pacman -S program " will get the job done with no mucking about. It will download the file, test it for integrity, determine if there are any unfilled dependencies, if necessary it will resolve those dependencies by downloading and installing those also.
That is quicker and simpler than any GUI, works well and is very efficient - irrespective of your opinion of the CLI.

Apt is shit. Everything command line is shit. It's literally the most user-unfriendly method of interacting with the computer possible. This is 2013, and if you think general users who just want to read their email are going to wade through a command line to do so, you're empirically, objectively, provably wrong.

That's your opinion and you are quite quite entitled to it, I for one find the command line a very valuable tool and one I hate being without.

"This is because Canon suck, and I won't buy one of their products again."

Lots of businesses own multiple $20000 Canon plotter printers. Do you expect them to just throw them away? You're crazy!

Thats p0is0n's opinion and he's entitled to it too. He's not referring to $20000 plotters, if you're buying hardware at that level you'll be doing your homework regarding drivers and compatibility with your systems and existing workflow. He's referring to canon failing to make CUPS drivers that work properly in both OSX and Linux for a domestic printer.
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#43 noskcaj

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:07 PM

I know i'm not meant to link to other fourms, but OCN had the same discussion, with interesting answers, two months ago. worth a read. http://www.overclock...ents-gone-linux
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#44 p0is(+)n

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:12 PM

For some reason it won't let me log in with my other account, it's been fucked since it was 'renamed'...

I may have been a bit all over the place in that post, not sure I can articulate what I mean well but will try again, with less words.

Apt is shit. Everything command line is shit. It's literally the most user-unfriendly method of interacting with the computer possible. This is 2013, and if you think general users who just want to read their email are going to wade through a command line to do so, you're empirically, objectively, provably wrong.

"This is because Canon suck, and I won't buy one of their products again."

Lots of businesses own multiple $20000 Canon plotter printers. Do you expect them to just throw them away? You're crazy!


I don't understand your point here, in order to read email, you don't need to use the command line, if you're a regular joe, you don't need to use the command line. If you're just trying to read email, you won't run into any of the issues with obscure packages that aren't in the repos and as such, will never need to touch the command line.

I still think it's quicker and easier to type 'special + t' to open a terminal, then 'apt-get install whatever' than it is to open software center, search for what you want, click some stuff, agree to something etc. it takes at least 5 times longer. It's about options, you have the option to use any package manager you want. If you don't know, the default does a decent job for the average joe.

Where did I say that business users using business grade equipment should throw them away, nowhere, I just said that I personally won't be buying canon again as their low end linux support is non existent so it causes me headaches when I need to print. I have probably got more experience in this area than you, given I work with large malfunction and business machines regularly as part of my job, unless you also do the same. I know what does and doesn't work, and once a network port is added to a printer, it's a different game. Doesn't make me and more likely to buy a canon with my next purchase though, if the equivalent HP or lexmark etc. has linux support.

Hang on.

It's your job to fix computers, but people are "lazy or just don't care" because they call on you?

Hmm...

I don't think a solicitor would think you were "lazy or just don't care" if you didn't try to settle a real estate transaction by yourself, but instead called him to do it for you in the first instance. You're not expected to know property law, just like a solicitor shouldn't be expected to read a man page, or even know what one is.

The computer is a means to an end. When it stops working, you stop being productive, no matter which OS you're using. The reason it stops working is irrelevant to the person using it.

I am not trying to say they are lazy for calling a professional to fix their issue, it's my job I do it gladly, but if you are calling me to do extremely simple tasks you should just know how to do as someone who uses a PC every day, it's what I call lazy. For example I get asked to help people share calendars all the time, all they need to do is right click and share it with the user they wish, but that's "too hard" because they are lazy, it's not hard at all. It actually takes more time to write an email asking for someone to do it, then to just do it yourself. People are just getting lazier and lazier as computers do more and more work for them. In some ways this is good, it saves us time, but in other ways it's bad, as people are less self reliant when there is every resource in the world available to them.

I had an issue with my car a few months ago, it was misfiring regularly and so I took the intake manifold off to get to the plugs, and upon removing the plugs I found that some of them were bad, so I just replaced the lot. The coils tested fine so I just put it back together and it's been running fine since. I was quoted $900 by an auto elec to check and replace all plugs and coils on my car, it took me about an hour and I learned something. I'm not a mechanic, if it was a gearbox issue, I would have taken it to a trans shop but I considered this a simple task and so I put in the effort and just saved myself some time, and now I am better off because I gained knowledge.

Why do they "need to"? What's the benefit over what they're doing now? (Think to Bryan's presentation, what's the real actual benefit of apt over yum?)

I suppose they don't need to, but it would be a nice option to have, see below though.

Wrong for a few reasons.

Schools are generally covered by the government's Software Assurance agreement with Microsoft. Windows and Office are practically free. In addition, the Software Assurance agreement provides support. Microsoft is on-hand in case an OS patch kills something.

Ubuntu can be downloaded and installed free of charge. This comes with no warranties, no support (other than forum-loads of unmoderated noise), nothing. Companies like RedHat offer "Software Assurance" style agreements for open source software, but they sure as hell are not free, in fact they're quite pricey.


I'll concede this point, I wasn't aware schools got so much for free from Microsoft, I guess this has helped with windows market share significantly. Something similar from canonical might help increase ubuntu market share then? My point was more that people just use what they are used to, so if they got used to ubuntu it would probably be their preference at home too, which would also help to increase market share. The average user doesn't really care what their OS is, as long as facebook and email work etc.

I don't know the exact answer, but I think that education will play a big part. The only reason we don't need to educate windows users further is because they are already so familiar with it, but it would have had to happen at some stage, probably in school using free windows from microsoft :)

Edited by p0is(+)n, 27 August 2013 - 05:22 PM.


#45 CptnChrysler

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:41 PM

Here's a mental excercise: In a race by three users, Install firefox on Windows , Ubuntu using synaptic , Ubuntu using Apt Assume a user competent with that particular method of installing software. In general terms: On the Windows system you'll need to open a browser, find and navigate to the download page, download the installer, open the folder it was downloaded into, extract if compressed, then run the 'next, next, finished' installer. Using Synaptic, you'll open Synaptic, search for Firefox, select Firefox and click install - typing your password along the way. Using CLI you'll open a terminal (like p0is0n I use a 'special + t' key combo) then type 'sudo apt-get install firefox', then enter your password. Now Ask yourself: Which user has the advantage? What is the simplest to use? What is the simplest to explain on a web forum to a newb?
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#46 SquallStrife

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 08:49 PM

I had an issue with my car a few months ago, it was misfiring regularly and so I took the intake manifold off to get to the plugs, and upon removing the plugs I found that some of them were bad, so I just replaced the lot.


What's a manifold? What's a plug? Why would you guess at those being the cause?

I personally know, but one shouldn't be expected to, simply to drive the car.

The coils tested fine so I just put it back together and it's been running fine since. I was quoted $900 by an auto elec to check and replace all plugs and coils on my car, it took me about an hour and I learned something. I'm not a mechanic, if it was a gearbox issue, I would have taken it to a trans shop but I considered this a simple task and so I put in the effort and just saved myself some time, and now I am better off because I gained knowledge.


That's all fine if you have the time, and more importantly the inclination. Most people would just drop the car off at the dealer on the way to work, and let trained people worry about it.

I'll concede this point, I wasn't aware schools got so much for free from Microsoft, I guess this has helped with windows market share significantly.


It's not really "free". The volume is just large enough that the per-seat costs are negligible.

Something similar from canonical might help increase ubuntu market share then? My point was more that people just use what they are used to, so if they got used to ubuntu it would probably be their preference at home too, which would also help to increase market share. The average user doesn't really care what their OS is, as long as facebook and email work etc.


They'll care when they can't install that family tree program to see what Uncle John's been working on.

I don't know the exact answer, but I think that education will play a big part. The only reason we don't need to educate windows users further is because they are already so familiar with it, but it would have had to happen at some stage, probably in school using free windows from microsoft :)


Lots of people smarter than you or I have been asking the same questions, and thinking the same thoughts, I'm sure.

If there was a simple answer, Desktop Linux wouldn't still be a curiosity outside nerd circles.
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#47 p0is0n

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 09:49 PM

I had an issue with my car a few months ago, it was misfiring regularly and so I took the intake manifold off to get to the plugs, and upon removing the plugs I found that some of them were bad, so I just replaced the lot.


What's a manifold? What's a plug? Why would you guess at those being the cause?

I personally know, but one shouldn't be expected to, simply to drive the car.

The coils tested fine so I just put it back together and it's been running fine since. I was quoted $900 by an auto elec to check and replace all plugs and coils on my car, it took me about an hour and I learned something. I'm not a mechanic, if it was a gearbox issue, I would have taken it to a trans shop but I considered this a simple task and so I put in the effort and just saved myself some time, and now I am better off because I gained knowledge.


That's all fine if you have the time, and more importantly the inclination. Most people would just drop the car off at the dealer on the way to work, and let trained people worry about it.


Without getting too far off topic, I do know what a spark plug is, but I didn't know what an intake manifold was at the time, and i had to google how to use my torque wrench as i had never used one before, but I just followed a Gregorys type manual (not unlike a man page) and did what it suggested. I am not suggesting everyone does this, or should be able to, but it's what I am getting at when I say you can put in a small amount of effort and not only learn something but also solve your own problems. I wish a lot more people shared this attitude, but I also realize I am a bit of a tinkerer so what seems like an exciting challenge to me may seem like a daunting pain in the ass to someone else.

Will let this thread get back on track now. :)
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#48 smakme7757

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:19 PM

The majority of the business world uses Windows The majority of the consumer world uses Windows The majority of the of the entire world uses Windows Windows is the king of compatibility because everyone uses Windows and Windows gets the job done, so why should people use an alternative? That's why it's so hard for Linux to break thorough. Even if Linux waps 100% comatible with everything and it didn't have any issues at all it would still suffer. People who don't give a shit about IT just want to use something they know how to use and get their work done. I moved my wife over to Ubuntu and even though everything worked fine she had to learn to use it which was something she didn't want to do. Just look at the backlash from Windows 8. People absolutely hate change.

#49 .:Cyb3rGlitch:.

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:30 PM

People don't hate change, they hate poor change. The iPhone was massive change and people lapped that shit up like it was a malaria healing deity. I've yet to use any Linux based desktop distro that wasn't a UI/UX regression from Windows or MacOS. Linux distros are so terrible that in the space of my computing degree I've see a heavily PC/Linux based cohort turn into heavy Mac/MacOS user base. Linux simply sucks for getting shit done without falling into a command line trap. If computing students don't want it, you can't expect regular users to either.

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#50 Master_Scythe

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 10:12 PM

You're right substance.
I found many a program I wanted from a differenr repo. SPent like an hour looking for a way to "click the repo" but had to resort to command line.
I now see there is a GUI way to do it, but its piss poor to find. Why didnt my OS\browser pick up it was a "link" and allow me to add from the page? Why did I have to open another program to follow the link within another.


As for the car analogy, most people would just drop it off at the shop; yes.
But if I have to do this every time I need CLI in Linux, I'd be returning my car under the LEMON LAW for being in the shop too much.

I have a similar bone to pick with MacOS in regards to keychains, but to be honest, keychains and "itunes" (store, etc) are the only bonbes I have to pick, and I'm sure there would be a way to disable the both of them if I owned one.

One other windows advantage is 'repairing'. Im yet to see a Linux distro I've broken thats been able to fix itself without a reinstall. Windows however does this all the time :)


I'm playing devils advocate here a bit, because I believe Ubuntu is ready for the Elderly, people who use PURELY a web browser or PURELY an office suite. Hell, even graphics designers if you like GIMP, but for a home user who does 'a bit of everything' walls... walls everywhere. Not impassable walls, just ones that need a CLI hammer to break through.

People don't hate change, they hate poor change. The iPhone was massive change and people lapped that shit up like it was a malaria healing deity.


No, face it, people hat change. WHen its a 'good change' its easier to swallow. The reason the iPhone worked was because the older 'dumb phones' were at the end of their tether. Everyone knew them all, nothing exciting about them. the iPhone itself ive never really heard a good thing said about; Its only the apps that ive heard people compliment (ok thats an exaggeration) but you have to admit, the 'cool things the app can do' won the iphone, not the fact the iphone was new.

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#51 SledgY

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 02:00 PM

How many of people commenting in this thread actually use Linux as a primary desktop? While some of the criticism is valid (if you are coming from a marketing point of view) some is either plain wrong or misunderstood.

Apt is shit. Everything command line is shit. It's literally the most user-unfriendly method of interacting with the computer possible.

This is ignorance pure and simple. Once understood a CLI is a very efficient method of interaction, extremely repeatable and precise.

Even as a software engineer, I don't want to play with that crap. When I just want to do my job, I want things to just work.

This is the exact reason why I prefer a GUN/Linux distribution for software development.

Much of this thread is still missing the point that the Opensource community isn't all about marketing a product it's about solving a problem. Competing projects could be seen as wasting resources (from a Business School MBA point of view) but it's also about finding the best solution to a problem which the developers have identified, solutions often get cross pollinated into the other projects improving things for everybody. To speak to the actual topic and question, I think the scope initial question is wrong, GNU/Linux as a whole will never be for general public usage, what will be is a distribution that does for GNU/Linux what OSX has done for BSD. Android kind of fits this category but it's not really a desktop. My guess is this is the end goal for Canonical with Ubuntu.

PC/Linux based cohort turn into heavy Mac/MacOS user base.

How much of that was actually for the hardware? ;)
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#52 noskcaj

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 02:37 PM

How many of people commenting in this thread actually use Linux as a primary desktop? While some of the criticism is valid (if you are coming from a marketing point of view) some is either plain wrong or misunderstood.


I DO!

Apt is shit. Everything command line is shit. It's literally the most user-unfriendly method of interacting with the computer possible.

This is ignorance pure and simple. Once understood a CLI is a very efficient method of interaction, extremely repeatable and precise

Even as a software engineer, I don't want to play with that crap. When I just want to do my job, I want things to just work.

This is the exact reason why I prefer a GUN/Linux distribution for software development.

Much of this thread is still missing the point that the Opensource community isn't all about marketing a product it's about solving a problem. Competing projects could be seen as wasting resources (from a Business School MBA point of view) but it's also about finding the best solution to a problem which the developers have identified, solutions often get cross pollinated into the other projects improving things for everybody. To speak to the actual topic and question, I think the scope initial question is wrong, GNU/Linux as a whole will never be for general public usage, what will be is a distribution that does for GNU/Linux what OSX has done for BSD. Android kind of fits this category but it's not really a desktop. My guess is this is the end goal for Canonical with Ubuntu.


+1
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#53 Master_Scythe

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 03:22 PM

How many of people commenting in this thread actually use Linux as a primary desktop? While some of the criticism is valid (if you are coming from a marketing point of view) some is either plain wrong or misunderstood.


I have tried, often for weeks at a time, its why I made this thread. My points are from a long-term-trial users oppinion :)

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#54 SquallStrife

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 09:14 PM

Apt is shit. Everything command line is shit. It's literally the most user-unfriendly method of interacting with the computer possible.

This is ignorance pure and simple. Once understood a CLI is a very efficient method of interaction, extremely repeatable and precise.


You're missing the point.

"Efficient" "repeatable" "precise" aren't the things Sir_Substance was suggesting to be missing from CLI's.

The fact you had to qualify your defence with "Once understood" supports the idea that it's a poor, user-unfriendly interface.

It's a wonderful great awesome tool for IT admins and computer scientists. That doesn't make it user-friendly.
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#55 Cybes

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 11:20 PM

Apt is shit. Everything command line is shit. It's literally the most user-unfriendly method of interacting with the computer possible.

This is ignorance pure and simple. Once understood a CLI is a very efficient method of interaction, extremely repeatable and precise.


You're missing the point.

"Efficient" "repeatable" "precise" aren't the things Sir_Substance was suggesting to be missing from CLI's.

The fact you had to qualify your defence with "Once understood" supports the idea that it's a poor, user-unfriendly interface.

It's a wonderful great awesome tool for IT admins and computer scientists. That doesn't make it user-friendly.

eg: emacs.

When linux is working, it's a fine alternative.

If you change a piece of hardware, or sometimes even just on updating some piece of software, it dies or starts acting strangely and often you have no alternative but to go diving though config files or even source. And then you find out that man really isn't useful unless stuff is operating as designed, aso you resort to online sources. The official site is very useful, but it's amazing how often I (at least) could find no reference to problems I had, so you end up with a general search, and that fully 90% of the 'help' you can find with google refers to previous versions which had the same issue! And of course that version's fix doesn't work for the current version.

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#56 Sir_Substance

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 09:24 AM

Apt is shit. Everything command line is shit. It's literally the most user-unfriendly method of interacting with the computer possible.

This is ignorance pure and simple. Once understood a CLI is a very efficient method of interaction, extremely repeatable and precise.


You're missing the point.

"Efficient" "repeatable" "precise" aren't the things Sir_Substance was suggesting to be missing from CLI's.

The fact you had to qualify your defence with "Once understood" supports the idea that it's a poor, user-unfriendly interface.

It's a wonderful great awesome tool for IT admins and computer scientists. That doesn't make it user-friendly.

eg: emacs.

When linux is working, it's a fine alternative.

If you change a piece of hardware, or sometimes even just on updating some piece of software, it dies or starts acting strangely and often you have no alternative but to go diving though config files or even source. And then you find out that man really isn't useful unless stuff is operating as designed, aso you resort to online sources. The official site is very useful, but it's amazing how often I (at least) could find no reference to problems I had, so you end up with a general search, and that fully 90% of the 'help' you can find with google refers to previous versions which had the same issue! And of course that version's fix doesn't work for the current version.


And it is this cycle which ultimately drives people away from linux, because noone has the money to pay someone who understands linux to unfuck their PC every time linux eats itself. Since the alternatives are either use your PC as a radiant heater or install a different OS, people end up being driven away by linux.
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#57 Master_Scythe

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 11:38 AM

If we had enough GUI, I could see a "noob server" distro being popular. take its notes from Windows, and have "choose the roles", everything from the usuals, to the modern extras (mumble, minecraft, TorNode). Have a full flashy awesome GUI to config the lot, and that would be golden. Desktop system of Ubuntu is AMAZING for appliances. As above, elderly, web only users, office only users. As a multitask OS, it works, but its not as friendly. And heaven help you if it falls over. No auto recovery.

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#58 p0is(+)n

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 02:11 PM

If you want to 'chose your role' even the CLI server install does this well. If you've previously installed it that's fine too. You can just type 'sudo apt-get install tasksel' then sudo tasksel' and you can then install LAMP stack or Samba etc. Unless you mean something different by 'roles' - all you have to do is press space to select the role and it will be installed ready to configure.

Something like this, but this has some extra options:
Posted Image

Ubuntu server really is extremely noob friendly. I've actually written some extensive guides on setting up both NAS and web servers which I am almost ready to share here.

I've had one issue I couldn't just fix in 2 mins with some thinking, when I changed the hostname I broke BIND9, these are probably the kind of issues you are talking about. It was actually nothing to do with the hostname change but something else I changed days before and hadn't rebooted since. I was able to fix it quickly by looking at my syslog, it told me exactly which line of which config file was causing me issues.

Edited by p0is(+)n, 30 August 2013 - 02:35 PM.


#59 SquallStrife

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 02:49 PM

You can just type 'sudo apt-get install tasksel' then sudo tasksel' and you can then install LAMP stack or Samba etc. Unless you mean something different by 'roles' - all you have to do is press space to select the role and it will be installed ready to configure.


That's too hard, and this is what M_S is talking about.

Look at the names on that list. None of those mean anything to a non-techie user.

You need to get away from names of programs. "Samba file server" doesn't mean anything, it should say "Windows file sharing". People are generally task-oriented, user interfaces should communicate that way.

Ubuntu server really is extremely noob friendly. I've actually written some extensive guides on setting up both NAS and web servers which I am almost ready to share here.


If it's that "noob friendly", it shouldn't need an "extensive" guide.

Lacie/Netgear NAS'es, and Apple's Time Capsule are "noob friendly". Something that takes an afternoon and 20 pages of steps is not.
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#60 Cybes

Cybes

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 02:58 PM

If it's that "noob friendly", it shouldn't need an "extensive" guide.

Lacie/Netgear NAS'es, and Apple's Time Capsule are "noob friendly". Something that takes an afternoon and 20 pages of steps is not.

ie: If you're comfortable handing a device based on it over to your grandma, knowing she will use it, and you're prepared to give her 24-hour support... Then it's user friendly.

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