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D&D Atomicans.. Noobs especially


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#21 AccessDenied

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:22 PM

Gaming tends to be more fun if you build around an idea rather than "How can I tweak it by 0.2%" Last character I played was a gnome fighter who specialized in disarming. Hardly optimized, but was hell fun. Especially when the DM threw a big creature at us. "Disarm" (Succeed). Big creature attacks. "Does he have improved unarmed?" "No" "Right. Attack of opportunity for all in melee then." You get the idea, even 'weak' characters can be powerful. I couldn't hit hard, but I could reduce an enemies effectiveness immensely, and make it so we got more hits than you could imagine. AD
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#22 Cybes

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:40 PM

Oh, I agree totally, AD. Still, it's useful to know what some of those tweaks are, so when you're choosing new feats at 5th (or whatever) you know that as a fighter it might be more useful to pick up 'A' rather than 'B'.

Or, maybe it's just me. I like to know what I can do before I proceed to do what I wanted to in the first place. ;)

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#23 AccessDenied

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 09:33 PM

For sure. I appreciate that there are 'useless' feats. But sometimes they're not useless. Eg. The feat "Extra skill". Sounds useless. But it can build quite usefully. eg. A human rogue (Human for bonus feat at 1st level) that take "Perform" as the extra skill. Sounds silly until you consider you can build into a shadow dancer far sooner and actually get a really powerful character. Nothing says Death on a backstab like "Hide in plain sight, shadow jump" Hasted? "Hide in plain sight, shadow jump to flank, BACKSTAB!" Rinse, repeat. AD
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#24 Cybes

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 10:37 PM

Indeed. But that's one of those things that newbies don't usually think of, but is listed in the optimisation stuff. Anyway... It's there. Whether or not anyone refers to it (or copies builds directly) in this game, anyone who goes on to play in other games might like to have it.

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#25 DaCraw

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 10:37 PM

Certainly, but it's worth looking into not only how to build your character concept, but also how to make that character concept work to the same degree of effectiveness as the rest of the party. One can conceive of a low-str high-cha/int tripper/disarm/tactician fighter (honestly, picture most Errol Flynn characters). Actually making this concept work mechanically can be somewhat counter-intuitive.Going with the obvious choices will leave you with a character that can't actually do what your character concept calls for. Once you get it built it is fun to play, sure, but you still need to put in the effort to plan it out first. That said, a lot of what is discussed on those boards really isn't applicable to a basic core-only campaign with new players. Leaving aside the TO builds (they are theoretical only, they typically involve abusing highly questionable interpretations of rules that no sane DM would allow) - so PunPun, Hulking Hurler, Chuck E Cheese etc are out - the caster supremacy views of those boards are based on assumptions which just don't play out at this level of play. It takes a fair bit of knowledge about the game mechanics and tactical skill to play a Wizard such that stinking cloud is better than fireball, though everyone on those boards will claim that it's a no brainer. Similarly the premium they place on the utility of magic if you have the right spell on hand (which they assume you do) falls down if you don't know the game well enough to know what spell to cast when and how to predict what you will need. A fighter can always do what you expect them to. A Wizard can be godlike or useless depending on what they have prepared. At this level, a reliable fighter is a better way to learn the game, and may be more likely to be useful in any given encounter, even though a perfectly played wizard can be more powerful/have more effect on the course of the battle. Still, once you have an idea what you want to build, those boards (and a few others I could name if asked) can be a useful resource in bringing that concept to life. Also, AD mentioned that this will be based on a classic module. If it dates back to AD&D (updated to 3.5) it will place far more of an emphasis on how you play your character than how your character is built. Quick thinking and creativity will do far more than an extra +1d6 fire damage per attack. [edit]: for the uninitiated to TO (theoretic optimisation) boards: Pun-Pun is a build that abuses various poorly worded rules to give a kobold arbitrarily high stats and every possible ability. Hulking Hurler is a prestige class, but is also the name of a build which exploits template stacking rules to do damage which requires extended Knuth up arrow notation. Chuck E Cheese is a build which exploits action-granting rules to exceed the speed of light. All of these are thought experiments. They were attempts to see where the rules break down in absurd ways. Try to play one and you will have several books thrown at your head. Even over the internet. AD will find a way. CO means character optimisation, and generally refers to building effective characters that a sane DM would actually allow in a real game. Note that every DM differs, and so what is allowed by one may be refused by another. Rule 0 is key here: if your DM (in this case AD) says no, then the answer is no and you should stop asking. Even if there is a contrary rule printed somewhere, the DM's word is final. Within these constraints, and any other constraints imposed by the DM (such as which rules or books are allowed), CO seeks to make your character as effective at your intended role/concept as possible. Note that there are levels of CO, and it is generally accepted that you should not seek to eclipse, outshine, or render trivial your party. It is more fun if everyone can contribute, so you should only optimise your character to be on par with the rest of the group. Some character concepts will take more effort than others to reach that point, but the basic idea is that you should make a character that will fit in with the party rather than outshine them or drag them down.

Edited by DaCraw, 20 September 2013 - 02:12 AM.

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#26 AccessDenied

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:29 PM

Wizards are only OP'd until they encounter an elder dragon that has magic resistance and can swallow whole. Every class has a weakness. Wizards/sorcerors. Put them against a grapple. Fighter? High AC/Dmg reduction. Rogue? Constructs You get the idea. There is always a counter. A DM has so many tools it's fun/scary. Whatever you can throw at a DM, they can throw at you. Who said I have to use the monster manual? Why can't a villain be rolled from the same rules as the players handbook? I can break a character as much as you? ------------------------ OTHERWISE, ignoring side-track. I'll list a few people in OP that expressed interest and message them. We'll see if we can get something happening. It will likely be end of October onwards. (I'm busy until mid-october). My emphasis will be on having fun. Not killing players. Not letting it be a cakewalk. (It's no fun to 'roflstomp' the game. I appreciate a good crit as much as anyone. But it shouldn't be every combat). I don't give a 100% guarantee your characters will survive, but I will guarantee that you as a person will get to play 100% of the game. Even if I have to 'write in' a replacement character. AD
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#27 DaCraw

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:59 AM

I agree entirely. My point was that while those board were useful, one needs to be careful of the assumptions they make. A good DM can, should, and will challenge any PC. Those boards (with some DM oversight) just help to make sure that all PCs are at roughly the same level of power, which helps to make the DMs job easier. A God Wizard, DMM Cleric, Ubercharger fighter, and Vow of Poverty Monk is a very bad mix. The important thing is balance. All players should be equally powerful overall, even if some are more useful in specific scenarios. [edit]: Just to be clear: This is the players' responsibility. The DM should make sure that any new players are welcome, and that their characters are built appropriately for the campaign, but the existing players should build their characters to be as powerful and useful as the rest of the party and not to eclipse them. CO boards should only be used by players to make sure that their characters meet this standard. That said, one can always play down a strong character. The important question is whether the other players are having fun or whether they are being outshined.

Edited by DaCraw, 20 September 2013 - 01:05 AM.

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#28 Cybes

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:19 AM

That said, one can always play down a strong character.

Equally, a Tier 1 character (eg: optimised Wizard) can be less effective than a Tier 3 (eg: non-optimal Thief) if played badly. The player's imagination and creativity matter more than the numbers.

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#29 DaCraw

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 02:05 AM

That said, one can always play down a strong character.

Equally, a Tier 1 character (eg: optimised Wizard) can be less effective than a Tier 3 (eg: non-optimal Thief) if played badly. The player's imagination and creativity matter more than the numbers.


That's kinda what I meant :p
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#30 DaCraw

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 04:48 AM

Well, I know almost nothing about D&D and would like to learn, definitely keen to join in AD!

I'll read up about character creation, and any sites you guys recommend, but happy to play a pre-canned one.



What kind of character would you like to make? While none of us would dictate your character to you, hopefully the more experienced posters on this board can help you to create a character that fits your concept.

If nothing else, we can tell you that choosing Con as a dump stat is a bad idea :P
(Constitution, or Con, determines your HP as well as your Fortitude save, which is used to protect against a range of nasty effects such as poisons and diseases (which can cause attribute damage) and other impairing effects. It is generally not something that you want to neglect.)
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#31 AccessDenied

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 05:36 PM

Sorry about delays. I think we've nearly got numbers. Just been insanely busy. We've a friend that is getting married soon and we're (Wife and I) are helping on a number of background things in the leadup. However, think about what you want to do. When all else fails, I bend rules/game to fit. If you all want to be barbarians, it will probably be hilarious, and I will work to make it fit. AD
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#32 AccessDenied

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 05:54 PM

OP updated. Keep expressing interest if you want to play. Nothing is ever set in stone (Stone to Flesh spell proves that point!) AD
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#33 NightOwl

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:10 PM

Omg .... my brother was a huge old school D&D player 25 odd years ago and it's been about that long since I've played as well. Would LOVE to join in, but I just don't have the time to dedicate at the moment. I hope there will be opportunity again later !
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#34 AccessDenied

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:40 PM

OK... I got side-tracked with real life. This is still 'happening'. Still putting the call out if anyone wants, otherwise, I'll go to first post and start drawing from that. We have enough people. I have the module. (Just need to re-write it to 3.5 and newbie friendly. Not a drama, but will take a week or so based on my available time) Would this be easier if I coincide it with school/uni holidays (For those interested) AD
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#35 p0is(+)n

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:20 AM

i think school and uni holidays are at different times in every state, but it doesn't make much difference for me. will keep an eye on this thread again now that things are picking up.




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