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Citizenship consultation now on.


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#21 tastywheat

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 10:39 AM

The bill introduced today isn't as bad as I was expecting, but I still think it's a football to score points with nationalistic voters, rather than something that is going to solve problems.

First and foremost, it makes the world less safe. We have strong anti-terrorism laws in Australia, and there's no garuentee that people that meet the necessary requirements are going to be prosecuted in their other country of citizenship. To repeat an analogy I've heard elsewhere, if an Australian citizen was found guilty of mass murder, would we be happy stripping them of their citizenship, and allowing them to walk free in another country?

The downside is that locking dangerous people up costs money, and I can understand the perspective of people who think this shouldn't be our burden for dual nationals who immigrated to Australia. I would counter this point by suggesting we still hold some responsibility for them, because we either didn't screen them appropriately during the application for citizenship, or they were converted/recruited while they were a citizen of Australia.

Secondly, I don't think this is going to act as a meaningful deterrent, and if anything, will worsen the situation with home grown terrorists because it promotes an us-against-them ideology. The situation with young men and women who are recruited by terrorist organisations while living in Australia is complicated, and defies simple reductions to good people vs bad people. Cultural identity is a powerful force, and everyone wants to belong to something. I think we could be doing more to make Muslims feel like they're welcome in Australia, and that we value their input and traditions that are compatible with the Australian way of life (i.e. family, friendship, good food, great architecture, freedom of religion). This wouldn't solve the terrorism problem, but it might result in less isolation, and better community integration, which in turn impacts on motivation to identify as something other than Australian.

So it's a bill that doesn't necessarily punish or rehabilitate those guilty of fighting in immoral and unlawful wars, and it doesn't necessarily deter others from joining them. The main thing it would achieve is to reduce costs to taxpayers, at the expense of the safety of Australian soldiers and citizens working, travelling, or living abroad, as well as the citizens of other nations involved in these conflicts.


Edited by tastywheat, 24 June 2015 - 10:53 AM.


#22 chrisg

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 10:51 AM

Yeah Tasty, completely agree.

 

Cheers


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#23 Rybags

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 10:59 AM

For 99.999% of people, this law has absolutely no effect or cause for worry.

 

For the remainder, it might be just enough to act as deterrent.  Our prison system is a holiday camp compared to most countries - just look at the crowded shitholes you see in places like Indonesia with their bucket per room of 15 as a toilet.

Sure, there's the possibility of them walking free or serving token bullshit Rainbow Warrior type island resort sentences but IMO it's worth it.



#24 tastywheat

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 11:01 AM

... but IMO it's worth it.

 

Worth it for what?  To keep them out of Australia?



#25 Rybags

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 11:04 AM

To keep them out, and free us of the expense of imprisonment.



#26 tastywheat

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 11:21 AM

To keep them out, and free us of the expense of imprisonment.

 

I agree with you for the majority of cases that keeping them out, and not paying for their imprisonment is a good outcome for Australians.  I don't think it would resolve the underlying problems, and therefore I don't think it's a good long term solution, but I can understand your perspective.



#27 codecreeper

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 11:55 AM

 

I think we could be doing more to make Muslims feel like they're welcome in Australia, and that we value their input and traditions that are compatible with the Australian way of life (i.e. family, friendship, good food, great architecture, freedom of religion). This wouldn't solve the terrorism problem, but it might result in less isolation, and better community integration, which in turn impacts on motivation to identify as something other than Australian.

 

And this is why this is happening.

 

The problem these Muslims refuse to adapt to our cultures and our laws ,they use us and make us feel sorry for them all the time. How much more do you want us to bend over for Muslims ,they will NOT integrate into our society. They have brought Sharia Law and the Halaal certification Scheme into Australian Culture which is NOT Australian. Look at UK ,Europe and the World ,we are at war with ISLAM and its the do gooders and UN that is responsible for this mess.

 

They will only Integrate with their own culture and that has been proven in every country they have stepped foot in.

 

Islam is a religion of war ,and its been spoken in the Quaran many times.

 

The new Terrorism Law will help slow the flow but inevitably its going to do nothing for those on Australian soil.


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#28 chrisg

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 12:01 PM

It's really not possible to generalise, I've a lot of nominally Muslim friends who are as angry about the actions of the minority as any Australian is. The media spin is quite large.

 

However I do agree code there is no place in Australia for Sharia, Halaal I really don't care either way although Halaal butchers tend to be very good.

 

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#29 tastywheat

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 01:05 PM

The problem these Muslims refuse to adapt to our cultures and our laws ,they use us and make us feel sorry for them all the time. How much more do you want us to bend over for Muslims ,they will NOT integrate into our society. They have brought Sharia Law and the Halaal certification Scheme into Australian Culture which is NOT Australian. Look at UK ,Europe and the World ,we are at war with ISLAM and its the do gooders and UN that is responsible for this mess.

 

They will only Integrate with their own culture and that has been proven in every country they have stepped foot in.

 

Islam is a religion of war ,and its been spoken in the Quaran many times.

 

The new Terrorism Law will help slow the flow but inevitably its going to do nothing for those on Australian soil.

 

I agree that there are aspects to the Muslim religion, and cultural practices of Muslim countries, that are completely incompatible with the Australian way of life.  I disagree that being Muslim is mutually exclusive with being Australian, and integrating into Australian culture.  One of the great things we have in Australia is freedom of religion, and I see no evidence for moderate Muslims calling for Sharia law as  a national policy, or for all Australian meat to conform to Halal standards.  We export our meat to a lot of Muslim markets, and the economies of scale make it more profitable to just have everything Halal certified, than separate production lines based on destination country.

 

Religion is what you make of it.  The Quaran does give extraordinary licence for certain acts, but that doesn't mean every Muslim agrees with this interpretation.  In the same way that Christian Australians generally don't suggest women who have had pre-maritial sex, or homosexuals, should be stoned to death.

 

Keep in mind that in many of the current cases, the 'flow' is outwards, not inwards.  i.e. Young people who were born and raised in Australia, and maybe even had parents/grandparents who were born and raised in Australia, choosing to join a war that is attempting to recreate an empire united by religion that was abolished in 1924 when the Ottoman empire (modern day Turkey) fell.  Understanding the motivations of this movement could help us to understand why Australians might want to abandon the country they were born in.  An important bit of information from my perspective is that many of the Australians that have chosen to join these organisations get cold feet, and want to return.  There's lots of conclusions you could draw from this, many of which would be more likely, and less charitable than what I'm about to propose.  My interpretation is that an idea was powerful enough to get them to leave, but the reality of the situation made them realise Australia is a better place to be, even if it meant coming back to certain prosecution and imprisonment.  This highlights a disconnect between what people who are recruited are told or think it's going to be like, and what it's actually like.  We could potentially be using these experiences to educate, and reinforce Australian values, and stopping the problem at its local source.


Edited by tastywheat, 24 June 2015 - 01:11 PM.


#30 aquilus

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 10:27 PM

 

 

I think we could be doing more to make Muslims feel like they're welcome in Australia, and that we value their input and traditions that are compatible with the Australian way of life (i.e. family, friendship, good food, great architecture, freedom of religion). This wouldn't solve the terrorism problem, but it might result in less isolation, and better community integration, which in turn impacts on motivation to identify as something other than Australian.

 

And this is why this is happening.

 

The problem these Muslims refuse to adapt to our cultures and our laws ,they use us and make us feel sorry for them all the time. How much more do you want us to bend over for Muslims ,they will NOT integrate into our society. They have brought Sharia Law and the Halaal certification Scheme into Australian Culture which is NOT Australian. Look at UK ,Europe and the World ,we are at war with ISLAM and its the do gooders and UN that is responsible for this mess.

 

They will only Integrate with their own culture and that has been proven in every country they have stepped foot in.

 

Islam is a religion of war ,and its been spoken in the Quaran many times.

 

The new Terrorism Law will help slow the flow but inevitably its going to do nothing for those on Australian soil.

 

You know, usually I'd at least try to defuse this with logic and debate, but honestly...

Shut up, code.

Just shut up.


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#31 robzy

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 08:40 PM

I've never checked, is Abbot a dual citizen ? He'd be entitled.

Abbott renounced it.

 

http://www.abc.net.a...estions/8869444

 

Rob.



#32 Cybes

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 09:34 PM

I've never checked, is Abbot a dual citizen ? He'd be entitled.

Abbott renounced it.


Robzy? Stepping up your joke game there, dude, slipping a 2yr necro in as current affairs. ;)

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#33 stadl

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 01:24 PM

To be fair, in most of the Atomic forums these days, a 2 year necro can occur by finding a thread halfway down the first page.


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#34 eveln

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 07:44 PM

Aww come on stadl it's not quite that grim :) threads with start dates before 2017 are totally relevant ongoing threads I'll have you know.

 

As to this thread, only those wanting to rule it over the rest of us and make our laws ie; Federal Parliament need to renounce other country citizenship imo. Too easy.


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#35 robzy

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 09:55 AM

 

 

I've never checked, is Abbot a dual citizen ? He'd be entitled.

Abbott renounced it.

 


Robzy? Stepping up your joke game there, dude, slipping a 2yr necro in as current affairs. ;)

 

I was just impressed that chrisg foresaw current events :P

 

Rob.



#36 chrisg

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 12:04 PM

 

 

 

I've never checked, is Abbot a dual citizen ? He'd be entitled.

Abbott renounced it.

 


Robzy? Stepping up your joke game there, dude, slipping a 2yr necro in as current affairs. ;)

 

I was just impressed that chrisg foresaw current events :P

 

Rob.

 

:)

 

Not at all sure that I did Robzy, I just happened to be in a queue at Heathrow and as I'm English born you get the fast-track aisle, he was in front of me and entering on a British passport. Of course as stand-by military personnel I could have walked straight through with a flash of ID but I rarely do that unless they need me urgently, it only calls attention to yourself really.

 

TBH I think, to sort of repeat myself that this entire dual-citizenship saga is a load of rubbish and a smokescreen, but we'll have to see how it plays out.

 

Cheers


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#37 Outcast_Aussie

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 03:10 AM

Quite ironic this thread being necro'd.

 

My eldest daughter is applying for Aus citizenship via my father in law. He's Aussie but has lived (Uk) here for  51 years.

 

Weird thing is about 15 years ago he wanted to go visit family in NZ and so applied to renew his Aussie Passport. He was told if he leaves Britain he can't return !!

Letters to MP and someone in immigration gets jailed (Coincidence ?) and F.i.L gets granted British Residency on Aussie Passport !

 

[Edit]

 

I'm a pom. We emigrated to WA in early 70's but returned Xmas 76. Stupid Parents never got naturalised as "we'll never be coming back" even though I never wanted to leave. (I was 15).

 

I aaplied to return and was told no problems if I have a job to go to.

 

Impossible. In 1982 the world was in recession so after much ado I applied for a work visa. Shit storm happened at Canberra House as they pulled out my emigration request and asked "on the spot" do you want citizenship or what?

I just wanted to get back and physically look for a job so I didn't care if I overstayed my visa - I wouldn't be getting in trouble so shouldn't get sussed.

 

I got back to Aus and retook my driving test as a n00b - Passed. Open bank accounts and got work.

 

Then I bumped into a girl I was seriously sweet on when I was at school (aussie school) only she was all grown up now ! And she kept taking me down the beach/ Nightclubs/ Everywhere.

 

..... Then she got married !!

 

I was left in Zombie Land. Australia is a Paradise but Paradise is a lonely place when you've no-one to share it with. So I came back to be a miserable sod in a Country full of miserable sods !


Edited by Outcast_Aussie, 07 November 2017 - 01:13 PM.


#38 eveln

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 08:40 PM


I'm a pom.

 

Rightio. always thought you were a runaway Aussie.  A couple of members from my family ran to UK ... one of them almost never to be seen by us again


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#39 robzy

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 02:05 PM

Not at all sure that I did Robzy, I just happened to be in a queue at Heathrow and as I'm English born you get the fast-track aisle, he was in front of me and entering on a British passport. 

 

It's pretty cool that you remember a brief sighting of him almost 25 years ago.

 

Especially since at that time he was just the opposition party leader's press secretary. I don't even know who Bill Shorten's press secretary is.

 

Regards,

Rob. 



#40 chrisg

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 02:43 PM

 

Not at all sure that I did Robzy, I just happened to be in a queue at Heathrow and as I'm English born you get the fast-track aisle, he was in front of me and entering on a British passport. 

 

It's pretty cool that you remember a brief sighting of him almost 25 years ago.

 

Especially since at that time he was just the opposition party leader's press secretary. I don't even know who Bill Shorten's press secretary is.

 

Regards,

Rob. 

 

:)

 

 Back then I did a lot of work in Canberra Rob - it was really just a big country town when you get down to it, everyone used to know everyone - I doubt that is still the case :)

 

Cheers


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