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#21 SquallStrife

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 12:37 PM

If they want to play the superiority game, there has been something ahead of them the entire way.
Remember, we're talking OS vs OS, if they have to start adding apps, disqualified.


Your definition for superior is pretty nerdy though, and your practices and habits are very 90s.

Not meant in a negative way, mind. There's a lot of stuff I do on my PC that's completely anachronistic, like keeping my apps in s:\programs and games in d:\games instead of Program Files.

My "s:\my documents" has been transferred from PC to PC since 1996!!
 

"Nice bluetooth stack, want to send me something? Oh wait! You still don't have file, or printer support....Don't worry, one day you'll reach the 90's"


Standing around like goofballs transferring stuff by bluetooth is best left in the 90s, I agree.
 

People get oddly defensive of their "Apples".


Well, you get super defensive of your "I need a phone that works like a PC" usage pattern.

Is it so surprising that others get defensive when you tell them their usage patterns and habits are "wrong" or "inferior"?

I just move to whatever is currently the best OS, regardless of developer.
If one day apple lets me use my (literally) pocket computer, like a pocket computer, and not like a locked down kiosk PC, I'm all in!




Trouble is that your very specific and personal definition of "best" is something that lets you treat a phone like a desktop computer.

Most phones aren't trying to do that, aren't even interested in doing that.

This loops around to the whole idea of eschewing "files and folders" as the entities you interact with. What a person wants to do with their phone is "Send a photo to Amy", they don't think in (nor should they be expected to think) in terms of "Transferring IMG_8973.JPG to 04xxxxxxxx by MMS".

Files and folders are a rubbish concept for general usability. And I understand how brain-breakingly wrong that sounds to us nerds, but remember that the remainder of the human race are not nerds.

Edit: I owned S60 smartphones. Yes! I had an N-Gage, and a 6680. I owned a number of early PocketPC/WinMo phones, and the aforementioned HTC Dream. Each of them had individual features I really liked, but I wouldn't give up modern Android OR iOS content-focused workflow for that files-and-folders environment. Not a chance. (And I say that as somebody that uses MS-DOS in my hobby!)

Edited by SquallStrife, 11 January 2017 - 12:51 PM.

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#22 Master_Scythe

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:04 PM

I still have my ngauge.
Was playing SonicN the other day.

The way it handles background apps, and the ease of app switching, and the way the managed to do it all without a touch screen, making it all faster and more compact was just bliss.

But I dont disgree, to each their own.

 

 

However on the bluetooth side, I've had 10's of older adults ask how to do it; and I've had to tell them they can't.

 

Even now, with no data plan or PC available (which happens REGULARLY in far north QLD, who is one of my main supported sites; and regularaly with people on "Senior"\Pension plans), backing up an iPhone is near impossible....

Android though, OTG USB stick, bluetooth to another phone, whatever. It 'just works', theres no "extra" requirements. The device has core functionality the other just lacks.

Thats just normal every day people trying to live their lives.

 

And I think I just had a moment of self realization too; Thats exactly what it is ^

Apple "EXPECTS" things of the user, and 99% of the time, that's money, or living conditions.

They dont even think of the people 800kms out of town, who will be on 2G for the next 10 years.

 

They EXPECT you to have special propriety cables, to buy 'apple branded' peripherals (still cant get my squeezeboxes to work on iOS), and so on.

They dont accept I've already bought LOCAL storage for my backups, I dont want to use your ONLINE option.

But they take that away....

 

 

Well, you get super defensive of your "I need a phone that works like a PC" usage pattern.

 

Well, of course.

If I didnt want to carry a PC with me, I wouldn't have a smart device, plenty of 3G enabled flip phones for those who DONT want to carry a mini computer.


Edited by Master_Scythe, 11 January 2017 - 01:10 PM.

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#23 SquallStrife

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:26 PM

However on the bluetooth side, I've had 10's of older adults ask how to do it; and I've had to tell them they can't.
 
Even now, with no data plan or PC available (which happens REGULARLY in far north QLD, who is one of my main supported sites; and regularaly with people on "Senior"\Pension plans), backing up an iPhone is near impossible....
Android though, OTG USB stick, bluetooth to another phone, whatever. It 'just works', theres no "extra" requirements. The device has core functionality the other just lacks.
Thats just normal every day people trying to live their lives.


There's always a fringe element that you can't cater to, and likewise, there are sacrifices you make when you choose to live somewhere that only has 2G.

As I said, it's good that Android is finally coming of age. Good for everybody.
 

And I think I just had a moment of self realization too; Thats exactly what it is ^
Apple "EXPECTS" things of the user, and 99% of the time, that's money, or living conditions.
They dont even think of the people 800kms out of town, who will be on 2G for the next 10 years.


No device is made with 100% of human beings in mind. Apple devices are made for the (imaginary figure) >80% of people that live in cities and have disposable income,
 
They're not made for the 15% of people that live outside of cell coverage, or the 5% of people that are ultra-stickler, highly habituated ubernerds.
 

Well, of course.
If I didnt want to carry a PC with me, I wouldn't have a smart device, plenty of 3G enabled flip phones for those who DONT want to carry a mini computer.


I carry a PC with me. It's an MBP.

But I /also/ carry a smartphone because it's a smaller, more manageable device that lets me do a subset of my social/hobby/media consumption activities when I'm away from a desk or PC.

It's not a PC, it's not a PC replacement, it's a complimentary tool.

Edited by SquallStrife, 11 January 2017 - 01:27 PM.

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#24 Master_Scythe

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:46 PM

 

However on the bluetooth side, I've had 10's of older adults ask how to do it; and I've had to tell them they can't.
 
Even now, with no data plan or PC available (which happens REGULARLY in far north QLD, who is one of my main supported sites; and regularaly with people on "Senior"\Pension plans), backing up an iPhone is near impossible....
Android though, OTG USB stick, bluetooth to another phone, whatever. It 'just works', theres no "extra" requirements. The device has core functionality the other just lacks.
Thats just normal every day people trying to live their lives.


There's always a fringe element that you can't cater to, and likewise, there are sacrifices you make when you choose to live somewhere that only has 2G.

As I said, it's good that Android is finally coming of age. Good for everybody.
 

And I think I just had a moment of self realization too; Thats exactly what it is ^
Apple "EXPECTS" things of the user, and 99% of the time, that's money, or living conditions.
They dont even think of the people 800kms out of town, who will be on 2G for the next 10 years.


No device is made with 100% of human beings in mind. Apple devices are made for the (imaginary figure) >80% of people that live in cities and have disposable income,
 
They're not made for the 15% of people that live outside of cell coverage, or the 5% of people that are ultra-stickler, highly habituated ubernerds.
 

Well, of course.
If I didnt want to carry a PC with me, I wouldn't have a smart device, plenty of 3G enabled flip phones for those who DONT want to carry a mini computer.


I carry a PC with me. It's an MBP.

But I /also/ carry a smartphone because it's a smaller, more manageable device that lets me do a subset of my social/hobby/media consumption activities when I'm away from a desk or PC.

It's not a PC, it's not a PC replacement, it's a complimentary tool.

 

 

We can agree to disagree on the last point, because thats just personal preference.

My phone has RDP, a web browser, SSH, and basically everything I need in a PC, I stopped carrying a laptop (as did 3 colleagues) when we bought Blackberry Passports. The laptop just isnt easier enough to warrant taking it out of the bag.

But that's up to the user. Blackberries multi-touch capacitive, physical, keyboard just makes a perfect trackpad mouse. the RDP experience is just 1:1 with, say, one of those Sony Mini PC's.

 

 

And man, you're right, apple devices are made for that 80% with disposable income, agree, totally, no sarcasm.

Problem I've always had, and it's not JUST apple (mainly is.... but not exclusively), is purposefully EXCLUDING that 20%.

 

Keeping on at the topic of OTG and Bluetooth, since I've used them as an example already;

 

There is NO REASON why those are excluded. The iPhone (as proven when jailbroken) DOES have a full bluetooth stack, they've just disabled file sharing, and printing. It wouldn't make the end user any more 'nerdy' to have them as an option. If they didnt use them, they're the type of options they wouldn't even know existed.

Printing even more so; "Use AirPrint, it just works!" is no reason to ALSO say "We blocked bluetooth printing, just 'caus. Buy a new printer, Mr Walking-Dollar-Sign"

 

And OTG? Well they'd never know unless they went out of their way to buy a "USB stick" designed for their phone, the option wouldn't even present itself!

 

There really is no excuse for that sort of exclusion behavior. It's literally the adult form of bullying. "You're different, so you can't join in, change to be like us".

 

 

A real life example;

My father was on a special plan until recently when VAYA matched it, plus some data.

He's a builder.

He had to transfer a few hundred MB's of plans to his architect, which I copied to his phone for him (old people, don't own USB sticks).

This was great until we got to the architects office, no microUSB (of course, proprietary cables.... GREAT) his iPhone couldn't receive bluetooth or NFC file sharing.

The office also used desktops, so no wifi (old fashioned, but secure I guess, they all had desktop PCs for the rendering grunt I assume).

 

In the end, we bluetoothed it to MY phone, where I ejected my MicroSD, and handed it to the architect who copied it using his digital camera as a MassStorageDevice in the PC.

 

I mean holy fuck....

We have a normal, 65+yo builder, just trying to send a file in the way that's been normal for 10's of years, just to be stopped by "we disabled it, buy data". Even now, that'd be 25% of his monthly data!

 

It's fucking not on.

 

Simplify all you want, make the 'advanced options' as deep and convoluted as you want, but don't willingly exclude people, or technology.

forcing conformity on anything consumerism focused should be a crime. Consumers deserve choice.

Bullys.


Edited by Master_Scythe, 11 January 2017 - 01:49 PM.

Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#25 SquallStrife

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 03:34 PM

I mean holy fuck....
We have a normal, 65+yo builder, just trying to send a file in the way that's been normal for 10's of years, just to be stopped by "we disabled it, buy data". Even now, that'd be 25% of his monthly data!


Using phones as makeshift portable storage isn't really "normal" IMHO.

Maybe normal in nerd circles.

It's fucking not on.
 
Simplify all you want, make the 'advanced options' as deep and convoluted as you want, but don't willingly exclude people, or technology.
forcing conformity on anything consumerism focused should be a crime. Consumers deserve choice.
Bullys.


iPhone is one phone.

There are kazillions of Android etc phones out there that allow you to do your geeky nerdy stuff just fine.

What's with the victim complex? The world is in no way obliged to entertain your oddball holdover habits.

It kinda seems like you're mad that everybody isn't a nerd like us.
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#26 Master_Scythe

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 05:04 PM

 

iPhone is one phone.

There are kazillions of Android etc phones out there that allow you to do your geeky nerdy stuff just fine.

What's with the victim complex? The world is in no way obliged to entertain your oddball holdover habits.

It kinda seems like you're mad that everybody isn't a nerd like us.

 

 

Come on man, you've worked corporate before, yeah? Its REALLY not very uncommon to use a smart phone to transfer a document.

My father just, as you say, isn't a nerd, so paid no notice to the 19Xmb.

All he cared about was "gotta move this document".

I'll admit, it's not the, say, 50% of 'casual users' but I'd say a good 'other 50%' of the users have transferred a document for work, from their phone before.

 

iPhones? It's like 9 phones by now; regardless, doesn't matter which version of it I buy; the same restrictions are there; they only got worse IMO.

If anything, they should have embraced Jailbreaking, like SONY does bootloader-unlocking.

A long, arduous, signed contract of warranty-voiding-process, that allows you to have 100% ownership of your device, with no 'support' beyond hardware warranty; but no. They fought that too; it'd be like microsoft 'locking down' the registry.

 

Victim complex?.... sorta.... I guess it's back down to an old discussion we had, where you see technology as a tool, and I see it as an Identity label.

While some people like to be seen by the haircut they get, the clothes they wear, the car they drive (well, that's me too...), I like to be seen by the technology I carry.

However, I'd call it less playing the victim, and more showing frustration.

Apple have made some damn good shit. Some VERY good shit. But it frustrates me, because I just cannot see the logic, nor has ANY apple store employee ever been able to portray what the logic IS behind these 'remove feature' decisions.

And it's not just for the sake of simplicity, because the 'simple users' would never notice. You can't sideload apps, you can't bluetooth files, you can't replace the messaging clients, you can't even DIY your own ringtone yet without iTunes help!

Yep, you're right, 90% of people wouldn't care, and that's actually my point! They wouldn't notice, who are they protecting? The lockdown is a deliberate choice. They're purposefully isolating that 10%, and for the life of me I can't figure out why.

It's like the Truman show, but at the end, he decides to go back INTO the tv show, not leave..... its boggling.

 

I get a little annoyed when people aren't nerds, but want to do nerd things, admittedly, yeah. Mainly because there has been a shift in culture I don't like.

It seems every dickhead is online now, every braindead moron thinks they're "up with technology" and apparently knows what a "meme" is. Filesharing reached the point where they're trying to literally police it......the list goes on.

And the frustrating part? they get social credit for this! "Oh wow, he's got a new smart watch, cool" ....bluetooth visible.... default passcode...... sync not setup..... yeah... cool... you can spend cash, real proud of ya sparky......

 

Look, I'm being extreme, I know, but I'm just making a point.

I don't expect miracles, times change, the world is more connected, and there was no chance of keeping 'the layman' offline.

The catch is, that the technology should have remained full featured. It should have kept moving forward.

Not have been cut back to the stone age just because Joe One-Tooth can't understand what a folder is.

You can make a 'pretty interface' that's simple WITHOUT removing the familiar interface behind it; but.... they're just bringing everyones IQ down to the same point.

 

A prime example is the nice new pretty Windows 10 Shell, simple and very automated for the noobs.... Still has a registry, folders, custom shells, etc.

 

 

slightly Off topic, but an example;

I used an iPhone 6(s?) for a week, over Christmas (work phone).

One button push, turns the screen on..... OK

Push it again, and the passcode pops up..... cool.

My logic = 2 presses (slightly slower than a standard double click), will bring the passcode screen up.....Nope.

 

You have to slow down to neanderthal speed, press it, wait for it to 'screen on', then press it again.

Double tap it? It ignores the second.

If it's already on, and you're impatient, and you multi tap the button, it ignores that too!

 

It had to be tap.... wait... tap. Latest iOS.

 

I also couldn't find a way to disable animations so I didn't have to slow down and wait for things like safari to 'slide open', but admittedly I didnt look too hard; maybe it's there.


Edited by Master_Scythe, 12 January 2017 - 08:58 AM.

Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#27 Jeruselem

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 05:55 PM

I have accounts in the google and Microsoft digital ecosystems. I pretty much use Microsoft in the desktop and my two phones. Due to my job, I have to deal with iphones and ipads so I know some things about ios.

Planning to buy an android tablet. My only real android device is the severely hobbled nexus player I got for my birthday.

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#28 Master_Scythe

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 08:53 AM

I have accounts in the google and Microsoft digital ecosystems. I pretty much use Microsoft in the desktop and my two phones. Due to my job, I have to deal with iphones and ipads so I know some things about ios.

Planning to buy an android tablet. My only real android device is the severely hobbled nexus player I got for my birthday.

 

You'll like it, if only for the ability to write any app you need.

And if you dont have those skills, tons of kids who want to be the next app dev who will do it for you for cheap.

I needed a quick and dirty sFTP server; tons of clients, very few servers.

$50 later, and a very flakey APK is done. its ugly, it had 2 buttons, and it would crash if I tapped AWAY from the buttons. But it worked.

 

As Squall has pointed out, its more of a freeform device, and less of a 'phone accessory'; but a lot of people are used to 'phone accessories', so expect a bit of a learning curve in terms of features.

 

One thing I've learned, which isn't really an attack, just fact, is that in iOS world, if there isn't "An App for That! ™" then you're just simply shit out of luck.


Edited by Master_Scythe, 12 January 2017 - 09:00 AM.

Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#29 SquallStrife

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 09:35 AM

Come on man, you've worked corporate before, yeah? Its REALLY not very uncommon to use a smart phone to transfer a document.


I've been doing this for the better part of 14 years, and I've never seen a non-nerd, non-IT person use a phone as makeshift portable storage (unless you count media to be played on said device).

At the small end, there's a "dump everything in here" network share, and burning disks or (more recently) using USB keys.

Where I work now, there are almost too many ways to transport files between people, and in/out of the organisation. Network shares, OneDrive for Business, Skype for Business, EDM system, Office365, etc etc etc. All secured and audited.

Transporting files on a phone really seems like a bit of a bodge to me. Sure, you /can/, doesn't mean you should.
 

iPhones? It's like 9 phones by now;


I meant in terms of what's on the market now, or at any given time. iPhone is ONE choice. You have dozens available to you. Why are you upset that this ONE choice doesn't cater to your personal usage habits?
 

Apple have made some damn good shit. Some VERY good shit. But it frustrates me, because I just cannot see the logic, nor has ANY apple store employee ever been able to portray what the logic IS behind these 'remove feature' decisions.


A LOT of people buy iPhones and iPads. ALL of these people are entitled to 1-on-1 support in an Apple store for the first year (or longer if they buy AppleCare).

Enabling/providing a feature means supporting it, keeping it patched (bugs and security fixes), documenting it, and showing people how to use it, etc etc etc. There are costs associated with this.

It's easy for you to say "just make that feature unsupported, just put it in an advanced area", but that's not how it works.

And there's of course the obvious answer: If you need these features, buy something that provides them. It's your money!
 

And it's not just for the sake of simplicity, because the 'simple users' would never notice. You can't sideload apps, you can't bluetooth files, you can't replace the messaging clients, you can't even DIY your own ringtone yet without iTunes help!


Sideloading being difficult (not impossible*), reinforces the value of the App Store platform. App developers can be more certain (not absolutely certain, but more certain) that their apps probably won't be pirated, because it's nowhere near as simple to pirate iOS apps, as it is to sideload an APK.

Sure it isn't impossible, but it's a path of sufficient resistance such that it makes it a more lucrative platform than Play Store. This is backed up by the numbers. Play Store has more downloads, but App Store makes way more money.

* (In the latest version of XCode, you can compile your own software and run it on your own iDevice, and also re-sign other people's IPA files and run them on your device.)
 

They wouldn't notice, who are they protecting? The lockdown is a deliberate choice. They're purposefully isolating that 10%, and for the life of me I can't figure out why.


Themselves. Their product image. Their brand. App developers. Their platform.

Again with the victim complex, Apple aren't doing anything *to* the 10%, they just don't care about them. Not part of their target market. Ignoring them.
 

I get a little mad when people aren't nerds, admittedly, yeah. Mainly because there has been a shift in culture I don't like.
It seems every dickhead is online now, every braindead moron thinks they're "up with technology" and apparently knows what a "meme" is, filesharing reached the point where they're trying to literally police it......the list goes on.
And the frustrating part? they get credit for this! "Oh wow, he's got a new smart watch, cool" ....bluetooth visible.... default passcode...... sync not setup..... yeah... cool... you can spend cash, real proud of ya sparky......


Seriously!?

Who gives a shit?
 

It's almost like a country being subtly invaded.
You get so caught up in "Not being racist" that you don't notice the population shift from X to Y, and suddenly, your traditions, culture, and history are being 'erased' by the new majority! See, while you were too busy being nice they, the new Y group, aren't as nice as you were, and throw your entire culture to the kerb!


Now you're just taking the piss. Android exists. iOS existing doesn't change that.

In fact if iOS didn't exist, Android would probably be the same clunky piece of shit it was on my HTC Dream.
 

Thank fuck the morons haven't found IRC yet, it's like the one last refuge.


They wouldn't use it if they knew what it was, especially when...
- Twitter
- Whatsapp
- Wechat
- Facebook
- Snapchat
- Instagram
- SMS/iMessage
- Hangouts
- Skype
- etc
...exist, and do more, and follow you seamlessly, and provide SSO, and so on.

As far as the "morons" are concerned, you can have your IRC.
 

I don't expect miracles, times change, the world is more connected, and there was no chance of keeping 'the layman' offline.


"'Keep' us offline? Fuck you." - The lay folk.
 

The catch is, that the technology should have remained full featured. It should have kept moving forward. Not have been cut back to the stone age just because Joe One-Tooth can't understand what a folder is.


Arguably it has moved forward, just not in a way that you would have personally done it.
 

You can make a 'pretty interface' that's simple WITHOUT removing the familiar interface behind it; but.... they're just bringing everyones IQ down to the same point.


"Familiar" to you, as a long-time enthusiast desktop computer user. Remember that.

I don't know any, because I'm an introverted loser, but my sister has heaps of friends in their early to late 20s that own smartphones and don't own computers.

Sure, they use computers at school and work, but the concepts of files and folders are rote-learned as "thing to click to do or see X".

To them, the way smartphones handle photos and videos and messages as abstract objects, rather than forcing the user to deal with files, is far more natural.

It's not about "bringing everyones IQ down" (wtf are you serious?), it's about making the user more productive.
 

slightly Off topic, but an example;
I used an iPhone 6(s?) for a week, over Christmas (work phone).
One button push, turns the screen on..... OK
Push it again, and the passcode pops up..... cool.
My logic = 2 presses (slightly slower than a standard double click), will bring the passcode screen up.....Nope.
 
You have to slow down to neanderthal speed, press it, wait for it to 'screen on', then press it again.
Double tap it? It ignores the second.
If it's already on, and you're impatient, and you multi tap the button, it ignores that too!
 
It had to be tap.... wait... tap. Latest iOS.


Yep. Standard iOS 10 complaint. Related to the addition of lockscreen widgets.

It can mostly be fixed in Accessibility.

I don't notice because I use TouchID, and by the time I would have pushed the button again, I'm ID'd and the phone is unlocked, so eh.
 

One thing I've learned, which isn't really an attack, just fact, is that in iOS world, if there isn't "An App for That! ™" then you're just simply shit out of luck.


See comment Re: Xcode.

Edited by SquallStrife, 12 January 2017 - 09:41 AM.

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#30 Jeruselem

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 09:41 AM

 

I have accounts in the google and Microsoft digital ecosystems. I pretty much use Microsoft in the desktop and my two phones. Due to my job, I have to deal with iphones and ipads so I know some things about ios.

Planning to buy an android tablet. My only real android device is the severely hobbled nexus player I got for my birthday.

 

You'll like it, if only for the ability to write any app you need.

And if you dont have those skills, tons of kids who want to be the next app dev who will do it for you for cheap.

I needed a quick and dirty sFTP server; tons of clients, very few servers.

$50 later, and a very flakey APK is done. its ugly, it had 2 buttons, and it would crash if I tapped AWAY from the buttons. But it worked.

 

As Squall has pointed out, its more of a freeform device, and less of a 'phone accessory'; but a lot of people are used to 'phone accessories', so expect a bit of a learning curve in terms of features.

 

One thing I've learned, which isn't really an attack, just fact, is that in iOS world, if there isn't "An App for That! ™" then you're just simply shit out of luck.

 

 

I am a dev but my entire employment for earning $$$ is due to Microsoft which isn't going to change anytime soon.

I'm after a decent USB C tablet (and not underpowered) but the only one which fits the criteria is the overpriced Pixel C.


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#31 Master_Scythe

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 11:36 AM

 

I've been doing this for the better part of 14 years, and I've never seen a non-nerd, non-IT person use a phone as makeshift portable storage (unless you count media to be played on said device).
At the small end, there's a "dump everything in here" network share, and burning disks or (more recently) using USB keys.
Where I work now, there are almost too many ways to transport files between people, and in/out of the organisation. Network shares, OneDrive for Business, Skype for Business, EDM system, Office365, etc etc etc. All secured and audited.
Transporting files on a phone really seems like a bit of a bodge to me. Sure, you /can/, doesn't mean you should.

 

That's really odd to me, I believe you, but since 'Cloud Storage' became a thing, "One Drive" (with local copy enabled) has been like a key feature on peoples phones in my world.

As has Office365 mobile. and Adobe Acrobat.

Documents carried via phone has become totally norm the last 3 places I worked..... It's odd we've had such different experiences :)

Just very curious!

 

 

I meant in terms of what's on the market now, or at any given time. iPhone is ONE choice. You have dozens available to you. Why are you upset that this ONE choice doesn't cater to your personal usage habits?

Because this discussion started when you responded to me, saying I can now wave Android in the face of "Huur Durr, buy iPhone, is SO MUCH BETTER, for reasons I'm too derp to convey" crowd...

That's why.

The whole discussion is based around defending myself from the ever more common "Outspoke iPhone elitist" crowd. Not about what I use, want, or need.

 

 

*snip*
It's easy for you to say "just make that feature unsupported, just put it in an advanced area", but that's not how it works.

*snip*

But it SHOULD be.

Because it's how every other device works.

FirefoxOS, Ubuntu Mobile, Windows Phone, Android, MeeGo, Symbian, BlackberryOS and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few.

They all offer support, many 1-on-1 (in the case of BB and MS, for sure), and they all have "advanced features" hidden away, with a nice super friendly user front experience for the 'general public'.

 

Really, your defence there is "apple can't be bothered helping it's users do anything complex". Which is kind of the point i'm making.

 

 

Sideloading being difficult (not impossible*), reinforces the value of the App Store platform. App developers can be more certain (not absolutely certain, but more certain) that their apps probably won't be pirated, because it's nowhere near as simple to pirate iOS apps, as it is to sideload an APK.

Sure it isn't impossible, but it's a path of sufficient resistance such that it makes it a more lucrative platform than Play Store. This is backed up by the numbers. Play Store has more downloads, but App Store makes way more money.
* (In the latest version of XCode, you can compile your own software and run it on your own iDevice, and also re-sign other people's IPA files and run them on your device.)

 

Does it though? If you take into account the money from Google Ads going to Google, PLUS the app developers income, does it make more? (actual question, not sarcasm).

 

I suppose that's a decent argument if correct, but that's one specific issue.

They covered that fine with 'Signatures' back in Symbian days.

Once again, hard but not impossible to pirate. Why not let me backup my signed apps to a unique ID'd IPA so I can reinstall offline?

Ah right, they want to profile me, always remember, in a controlled ecosystem, "the user is the product".

 

 

Themselves. Their product image. Their brand. App developers. Their platform.
Again with the victim complex, Apple aren't doing anything *to* the 10%, they just don't care about them. Not part of their target market. Ignoring them.

 

Yeah, we've done that in society before.

Ignoring the needs of the minority always makes for a well received and respected superpower.... or not.

 

 

Seriously!?
Who gives a shit?

 

I thought it was pretty clear I do.

I value intelligence. And yes, it makes my blood boil when 'Captain 10k in debt' who doesn't even know what he actually owns, gets intellectual credit for 0 knowledge and 100% cash.

I've long theorized this is why people write malware.

 

 

In fact if iOS didn't exist, Android would probably be the same clunky piece of shit it was on my HTC Dream.

 

Maybe...

I'd have hoped they'd still have tried to reach BBOS or WinPhone and get a market share.

But maybe they'd have just given up?

 

 

As far as the "morons" are concerned, you can have your IRC.

Thank fuck! And where would we be without it?

I don't think there's a single more valuable source of information in existence.

I mean, I met the Japanese dude who helped program a specific IC of an ECU I was trying to decrypt, just by posting in the ECU development group.

Where else do you find those people?! They sure dont want to deal with the 'masses'.

 

 

"'Keep' us offline? Fuck you." - The lay folk.

 

My point 110%.

Yet us (clearly fucking meek) nerds, go out of our way to enable that sort of behavior.

 

We're like parents who give their obese kids 3rds of desert.

Enabling that sort of 'head in sand' behavior is just irresponsible.

Have you seen what those people post online?

 

If you're not willing to learn how to use a tool, then you can't use a tool.

 

I don't ask, nor expect... say... drop-saw companies to stop me being able to slice my arm off, they expect me to learn how to use a drop saw.

Yet we're expected to protect them from phishing, viruses, and "make it safer".

Making something safer, ultimately makes it less useful.

Note, "easier" is not the same. That's called an innovation, making something nicer without losing functionality.

 

 

Arguably it has moved forward, just not in a way that you would have personally done it.

 

Arguably is darn right.

Bluetooth is still a valid and heavily used communication stack, I'd expect it to work.

 

 

"Familiar" to you, as a long-time enthusiast desktop computer user. Remember that.
I don't know any, because I'm an introverted loser, but my sister has heaps of friends in their early to late 20s that own smartphones and don't own computers.
Sure, they use computers at school and work, but the concepts of files and folders are rote-learned as "thing to click to do or see X".
To them, the way smartphones handle photos and videos and messages as abstract objects, rather than forcing the user to deal with files, is far more natural.
It's not about "bringing everyones IQ down" (wtf are you serious?), it's about making the user more productive.

 

No, familiar to me as a smart phone user.

I used smart phones since the day they were invented. Back in 2000 with a Nokia Communicator; then a 7250, then Ngague, then NgagueQD, N95, the list goes on!

 

Symbian, WinPhone, BB, Android, MeeGo; all folders and files.

 

I have 2 friends who are 'phone only' users, no PC. They're 21yo's.

Something they CONSTANTLY struggle with, is how abstract it is.

They're often asking what's local and whats online, because in Australia, we don't have unlimited data.

It's so abstract, they're not sure whats on their phone, vs "in the cloud". And in many, many, many, countries, that's still important.

 

How is removing an area of access from a user, not denying knowledge?

 

 

Yep. Standard iOS 10 complaint. Related to the addition of lockscreen widgets.
It can mostly be fixed in Accessibility.
I don't notice because I use TouchID, and by the time I would have pushed the button again, I'm ID'd and the phone is unlocked, so eh.

 

And this is where my theory of "Apple keeping the free thinkers away" comes from.

And it's also the type of attitude all my research and time gets put toward defending against.

You bring a complaint to an apple user, and they are now OK, with "so eh" being a response. Can you fucking believe it?!

Yes, you heard correctly!

They find a fault with their (almost multi) THOUSAND DOLLAR device, and ACCEPT IT, as opposed to FIX IT (mainly, because THEY CAN'T ANYMORE!!!!!).

There ain't no registry edits, no custom build.prop, no .config file to fix this, its just "Bad" and they're "OK" with it.

These are the people you have to calmly prepare yourself to strap into a good 8 hour discussion with them, because their mind is already warped to complacency.

Probably going to take a while to 'wake them up'.

 

 

See comment Re: Xcode.

 

Fair cop, that's new, but, you're right.

It's still no replacement for compiling a "fixed kernel" but it's a step in the right direction.


Edited by Master_Scythe, 12 January 2017 - 11:53 AM.

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#32 SquallStrife

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 01:12 PM

The whole discussion is based around defending myself from the ever more common "Outspoke iPhone elitist" crowd.


Based on my experience, I'm not convinced that this type of person is "common" or "outspoken", but I imagine they come out of the woodwork when fAndroids get preachy about their platform (and believe me, they do!).
 

But it SHOULD be.
Because it's how every other device works.


If all your friends jumped off a bridge...
 

Really, your defence there is "apple can't be bothered helping it's users do anything complex". Which is kind of the point i'm making.


Sure, if you only look at the support factor. Why spend time, money, and effort providing these features (nevermind support, think updating, patching, testing, etc), just to appease the few % that *might* use them?

Why would I be bothered if you waved features in my face, if I couldn't care less about those features?
 

Ignoring the needs of the minority always makes for a well received and respected superpower.... or not.


It's a good thing, then, that Apple is just one vendor in a sea of alternatives, between which people can freely switch at a whim. Otherwise you'd have a point.
 

I'd have hoped they'd still have tried to reach BBOS or WinPhone and get a market share.


BBOS and PocketPC/WinMo were pretty awful back then too, though.
 

I don't think there's a single more valuable source of information in existence.
I mean, I met the Japanese dude who helped program a specific IC of an ECU I was trying to decrypt, just by posting in the ECU development group.
Where else do you find those people?! They sure dont want to deal with the 'masses'.


You can find your absurdly niche contacts, other people can swap photos quickly and easily, and never the twain shall meet. Seems all is right in the world.
 

Yet us (clearly fucking meek) nerds, go out of our way to enable that sort of behavior.


Enable what, exactly?

To make a car analogy, are you this bitter towards the inventors of auto transmission, because they made motoring more accessible? Are you bitter towards people that aren't car nuts, because their car is simply a means of transportation, and not the centrepoint of their lives?

People who aren't mechanics drive cars every day, they pay someone else to maintain it and repair it, and have an RACQ membership in case of breakdown or flat tyre. Does that infuriate you as much as non-nerd having a phone with a big screen that can Snapchat?
 

No, familiar to me as a smart phone user.


No, sorry, your familiarity with the files+folders metaphor certainly predates smartphones of any type.
 

You bring a complaint to an apple user, and they are now OK, with "so eh" being a response. Can you fucking believe it?!


When I said "so eh", I meant it doesn't affect me.

Even if it did, and even if I *could* fix it, I wouldn't bother spending the time or effort, because it's so minor as to be a non-issue.

I had plenty of minor, niggling problems on my previous handset (HTC One M7), that were probably fixable if I felt like spending a few hours sifting through reams of forum posts and garbage, but I'd rather just get on with it and perform tasks with the thing, than obsessing over the trite and inconsequential.
 

Yes, you heard correctly!
They find a fault with their (almost multi) THOUSAND DOLLAR device, and ACCEPT IT, as opposed to FIX IT (mainly, because THEY CAN'T ANYMORE!!!!!).
There ain't no registry edits, no custom build.prop, no .config file to fix this, its just "Bad" and they're "OK" with it.
These are the people you have to calmly prepare yourself to strap into a good 8 hour discussion with them, because their mind is already warped to complacency.


"Have to"? "Discussion"?

It's pretty arrogant to write off mindsets different to your own as "warped to complacency".

Some people are more concerned with achieving macroscopic tasks, than obsessively trying to shave milliseconds off everything. Hours spend trawling through xda-developers to try to solve some minor complaint can usually better be spent elsewhere.

It's not about complacency, it's about priorities.
 

And yes, it makes my blood boil when 'Captain 10k in debt' who doesn't even know what he actually owns, gets intellectual credit for 0 knowledge and 100% cash.


Surely you realise how ridiculous this sounds? "Intellectual credit"?? What planet are you even on?

And it really "makes your blood boil"? Geeze dude. I'm worried about you. That's not normal.

Edit: Deleted my double-line spacing that seemingly came from nowhere. :(

Edited by SquallStrife, 12 January 2017 - 01:56 PM.

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#33 Master_Scythe

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 03:33 PM

 

Plus based on my experience, I'm not convinced that this type of person is "common" or "outspoken", but I imagine they come out of the woodwork when fAndroids get preachy about their platform (and believe me, they do!).

Oh ho ho, believe me they're SUPER common.

They probably come out of the woodwork more, because they stop me to ask what on earth my phone is.

Then I'm almost instantly met by an arrogant "They still make phones? You should get an iPhone"

Admittedly the last part isn't always there, but more common than not is the "other user" preaching superiority, and yeah, that'll get me going.

I genuinely try to never 'start it' but I'll ALWAYS finish it.

 

 

If all your friends jumped off a bridge...

 

All my friends are extremely intelligent IMO, I'd follow suite instantly, because clearly, there's a reason to be doing this!

 

 

Sure, if you only look at the support factor. Why spend time, money, and effort providing these features (nevermind support, think updating, patching, testing, etc), just to appease the few % that *might* use them?
Why would I be bothered if you waved features in my face, if I couldn't care less about those features?

1. Because when you're billions in profit, you'd hope at least some of that would be reinvested into bettering your product.

2. I don't know, but people seem to get uppity when my phone can do things theirs cant. (BB Hub is now available on Android, and everyone I know installed that, so I'm running out of 'face waving features' lol)

 

 

It's a good thing, then, that Apple is just one vendor in a sea of alternatives, between which people can freely switch at a whim. Otherwise you'd have a point.

 

Good thing X is just a single country in a (literal) sea of alternatives.

That'll make the dictator better received, I'm sure.

 

Mobile doesn't let you freely switch at a whim, you usually have to re-pay for basically everything, from media to apps, to (until recently) cloud storage choice.

 

 

BBOS and PocketPC/WinMo were pretty awful back then too, though.

 

Well, ok, Symbian then. "Settings" were convoluted, but the user experience was flawless.

And BB was always pretty decent. Especially in BBOS5 onward. You had a darn mouse pointer and trackpad! It was awesome!

 

Winmo.... OK, before 8, was painful.

 

 

"So eh"... Means it doesn't bother me. Nothing in life is perfect.

 

Well no, but I don't expect literal perfect, I expect perfection-to-a-point.

As an example, BBOS10, I'm sure there are faults, but I literally can't find them. it's perceived as perfect, which matters most IMO.

Yet I found the apple lock screen bug literally within 1 minute of holding it.

 

 

Enable what, exactly?

Spend 10 minutes on a 'popular' facebook group, and you'll see.

It's hard to put into words the toxic filth and exchange of misinformation that occurs 24/7.

Not that it wasn't there with "just nerds" before, but its amplified unbelievably by "lower class netizen's"

 

To make a car analogy, are you this bitter towards the inventors of auto transmission, because they made motoring more accessible? Are you bitter towards people that aren't car nuts, because their car is simply a means of transportation, and not the centrepoint of their lives?

People who aren't mechanics drive cars every day, they pay someone else to maintain it and repair it, and have an RACQ membership in case of breakdown or flat tyre. Does that infuriate you as much as non-nerd having a phone with a big screen that can Snapchat?

 

 

 

Well, no, Manual transmissions reached a point where they were too weak for motorsport. Automatics are a necessary evil.

 

I Am bitter toward transport departments allowing people to get 'Automatic only' licenses with so little training (without disability).

Even if they don't learn to drive manual, there should be a basic drive-train understanding test (eg. what gear do you tow in, for example), so they don't slow traffic, and put themselves in a 4th gear "no torque, flat foot" circumstances resulting in unpredictable behavior on a public road. I've met people who didn't know manuals could 'roll back'. Once again, all I ask is basic education. not all out nerdery.

 

They only infuriate me as much if they have 0 idea how to drive. It might be coincidental, but I find people with at least a LITTLE car knowledge "can drive".

 

 

No, sorry, your familiarity with the files+folders metaphor certainly predates smartphones of any type.

 

Predates, well, of course.

 

But we had 8 years of smart phones doing that too before the iPhone3G was released.

And a few more years before nokia 'fell'.

and a few MORE years before PDA's stopped being common place.

 

If we give them 6 years of "iphone mindset" they're still about 10 years 'younger. (8 years of symbian + 8 years of Android).

 

 

Even if it did, and even if I *could* fix it, I wouldn't bother spending the time or effort, because it's so minor as to be a non-issue.

I had plenty of minor, niggling problems on my previous handset (HTC One M7), that were probably fixable if I felt like spending a few hours sifting through reams of forum posts and garbage, but I'd rather just get on with it and perform tasks with the thing, than obsessing over the trite and inconsequential.

 

See I use my phone daily. a literal second delay on the home screen on an iphone would add up to hours of delay easily within a few months. (btw, my skin peels badly on my fingers, I can never register a clean fingerprint).

 

And you're right, I wouldn't bother with forums either, I'd jump onto the XDA IRC, post my problem, and I'm confident someone would at least direct link me, or write me a solution :)

 

I've never had an issue that required literal hours. But the point remains, 9\10 times it IS fixable, even if with great effort; where 9/10 on the iPhone... quibble?, your Shit out of Luck.

 

 

"Have to"? "Discussion"?
It's pretty arrogant to write off mindsets different to your own as "warped to complacency".

Some people are more concerned with achieving macroscopic tasks, than obsessively trying to shave milliseconds off everything. Hours spend trawling through xda-developers to try to solve some minor complaint can usually better be spent elsewhere.
It's not about complacency, it's about priorities.

 

Well, if they're the type to discuss\argue this in the first place, yes, "having to" have a "discussion" is a normal and polite thing to do.

Otherwise I guess you could grunt and smash their phone? :P

Not to mention, you know I enjoy a good heated discussion, so if they start it, I'll be 150% sure I end it :P

 

And don't be as dramatic as I like to be....... :P I'm not writing off "mindsets"

I'm only writing off a single mindset to complacency whatever the mindset is that allows "I spent $1500 on a device, It's OK that it has faults" to be 'normal'.

I despise the attitude of meaningless consumerism the "I threw money at the wall, it doesn't quite do what I want, but OK". No, money talks! If you spend "the most" (pretty sure iphone is still the most $$?) you should get the most faultless experience.

 

But even then, I don't write them off, I attempt to educate. :)

 

 

Some people are more concerned with achieving macroscopic tasks, than obsessively trying to shave milliseconds off everything.

 

You'd be surprised how much those all add up.

also, 9/10 times, someone else has already solved it for you, because they have the chance in any other environment to do so.

as above, I've never spent more than say 15 minutes fixing an 'issue' or adjusting to my preference, time which I'm sure adds up to saved over the 3 or 4 years of the phones life.


Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#34 SquallStrife

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 05:21 PM

I don't know, but people seem to get uppity when my phone can do things theirs cant.


If your approach to pointing these things out is a "waving in the face" approach, I'd probably get uppity too, even if I knew your feature would be of zero use to me in practice.

People generally don't like being spoken down to, or being "spoken at", whether the person is right or wrong.
 

1. Because when you're billions in profit, you'd hope at least some of that would be reinvested into bettering your product.


They do. They improve the features that people actually use. The features that add value for the 90%.
 

But we had 8 years of smart phones doing that too before the iPhone3G was released.


And 8 years of smartphones being relegated to nerd toy status. Coincidence?
 

And you're right, I wouldn't bother with forums either, I'd jump onto the XDA IRC, post my problem, and I'm confident someone would at least direct link me, or write me a solution :)


Right, because you're already a nerd, and already have the background knowledge.

Remember that most people aren't and don't, and furthermore don't have "computers" as an interest or hobby, so won't.
 

As an example, BBOS10, I'm sure there are faults, but I literally can't find them. it's perceived as perfect, which matters most IMO.


Perceived as perfect **by you**.

Someone else might "hate the way it does X", and not be a nerd with the ability (or inclination) to hack/patch/mod a change in.
 

I'm only writing off a single mindset to complacency whatever the mindset is that allows "I spent $1500 on a device, It's OK that it has faults" to be 'normal'.
I despise the attitude of meaningless consumerism the "I threw money at the wall, it doesn't quite do what I want, but OK". No, money talks! If you spend "the most" (pretty sure iphone is still the most $$?) you should get the most faultless experience.


Again conflating complacency with priorities.

My phone does 100% of what I expect my phone to do. Maybe it has faults, but the faults are outside my scope of use, so they might as well not exist.

If you buy a stereo known to have a poor AM tuner, but you never listen to AM, then what's the problem?

Edited by SquallStrife, 12 January 2017 - 05:28 PM.

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#35 Master_Scythe

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 09:29 AM

 

If your approach to pointing these things out is a "waving in the face" approach, I'd probably get uppity too, even if I knew your feature would be of zero use to me in practice.
People generally don't like being spoken down to, or being "spoken at", whether the person is right or wrong.

 

No argument here. It's proof in point that I'm baited so easily by my choices being spoken down about.

As I said, if people want to tell me "What I should have done..." they'd better have a bloody good, well researched reason to be telling me what I should have bought, because I have notes printed out to counter most. (and they can have copies!)

 

 

They do. They improve the features that people actually use. The features that add value for the 90%.

 

How peculiar, I'm yet to hear a single "improvement" people have found from the new iOS.

Maybe I'm just with the "wrong iPhone users". Maybe they still think too freely.

 

Personally?

When I used it over xmas, it couldn't do "office" documents, PDF I don't think it did either. Facebook needed an 'app' for sure. Ditto twitter. I couldn't figure out how to add a 'share' (even from an AFP server), I had a hard time setting up multiple email accounts (its doable, just not intuitive, it's in settings, not in the email app.... OK.....). I'd say that's fairly "common use" and it couldn't do it. I needed to "Add apps" for basically ALL of that.

WinMo? EDGE handles all the above just fine (minus the facey)

Blackberry? All just works, to the point of Facebook and Twitter being rolled into the OS.

 

iOS just felt 'empty' and useless as an OS, the effort felt like 0, relying on 'Apps' and other developers to add (most) useful features.

The OS just did so little, It was hard to be impressed.

 

 

And 8 years of smartphones being relegated to nerd toy status. Coincidence?

 

I disagree strongly.

EVERYONE I knew had a modern Nokia.

The N95 almost literally FLEW off the shelves. E71 and E63 also did above expected numbers. The N82 didnt do too badly.

The 6680 sold WELL, I saw a lot of those, ditto the 6120. And I think the 3230 was probably the most seen, as people saw it as a successor to the 3310.

Those that didn't, usually had a Sony Ericson, which interestingly, had (IMO) even MORE Symbian phones than what Nokia did.

Basically anything with an MP3 player was Symbian from them.

The Motorolla RAZR and KRZR was probably one of the best selling phone(s) ever released, It had longer 'wait times' than a new iPhone release to get one! Every "with-it chick" I knew had one.

 

Add to that how "all the kids wanted a blackberry" (but no one got one, because price) because you could play Pokemon on it when gameboys were ban at school (GB emulator), and surf the internet without wifi (BIS unlimited plans)!

 

It could be those couple of years between us, I was in school when literally EVERYONE had a symbian phone. There was almost a black market from us nerds who could pirate an S60 .sis file, because people wanted the latest game or bluetooth hack. And I'm not exaggerating, everyone (id say almost literally) had a 'classic' smartphone in highschool. Using folders and files and SD cards.

 

 

Right, because you're already a nerd, and already have the background knowledge.
Remember that most people aren't and don't, and furthermore don't have "computers" as an interest or hobby, so won't

 

Yes, but you were using yourself as the example above. So none of that applies.

 

 

Perceived as perfect **by you**.
Someone else might "hate the way it does X", and not be a nerd with the ability (or inclination) to hack/patch/mod a change in.

 

Yeah, but "by me" is all that matters when the entire discussion is about someone telling me why theirs is superior and I should have bought it.

 

 

Again conflating complacency with priorities.
My phone does 100% of what I expect my phone to do. Maybe it has faults, but the faults are outside my scope of use, so they might as well not exist.
If you buy a stereo known to have a poor AM tuner, but you never listen to AM, then what's the problem?

 

Well no, if it was a priority thing you'd get a "Oh yeah, that doesnt bother me too much" not the equivalent to "I don't care".

It's complacency.

Maybe you've been lucky enough to be on good pay longer than I have, but I remember when 1.5K was probably 75%+ of your yearly 'spending money', and still know a majority for who that's true.

To me, 1.5K is "real money", and I expect 1.5k of polish from it.

Lay it side by side with a $250 outright 'windows phone'. and we'll see if it's 6X more feature packed, 6X easier to use, and 6X better built.

 

You think its perfect? OK, cool, I'm not trying to 'convert you'.

You have the perfect phone for you, and you're not trying to tell me why my choices are apparently wrong, so there's no conflict.

But for me, I didn't "expect" my modern thousand dollar smart phone to ignore button presses. I'm operating at normal human speed. But it did.

Unacceptable to me. I'd have expected it to keep up, and be user friendly, not have to learn "Oh, I need to insert an unnatural pause here.... for no reason.... OK...."

I'm not OK with that, at the price point. $200? Probably an OK quibble. 1.5k? Fuck off.

 

 

If you buy a stereo known to have a poor AM tuner, but you never listen to AM, then what's the problem?

 

Unless there is a damn compelling reason why they have chosen to force the AM to be poor (because that's what apple has done with bluetooth and OTG), despite having the capability to be perfect?

I'd reject the brand, and write to as many consumer magazines about the deliberate choice to shun the people who would like to listen to AM.

 

I don't want to have to buy an AM tuner IN ADDITION, in case I want to use one next year, or tonight, or a storm hits, or I find a neat pirate broadcast, I'm not a psychic, I can't tell what I'll want or need next month.

If I buy a product capable of a feature, I'd be mad if it was intentionally crippled.

 

That's the catch, there are so many tens of people you meet, help, and learn new things from every day you can never really know what you'll need out of your technology.

I mean, I left the house yesterday expecting a BBQ and some massive burnouts.

I ended up using SCP for some file transfer, streaming a webinar on ECU tuning to a local projector, and sending an ECU definition I've been messing with from my phone to a windows tablet via Bluetooth.

I didn't expect any of that! I'm no mind reader.

And that was just a group of us grease monkeys messing with our early 90's subaru's. "Car nerds" but far from computer nerds.


Edited by Master_Scythe, 13 January 2017 - 09:50 AM.

Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"





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