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A lament for Flash


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#21 Master_Scythe

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 02:55 PM

 

But all my above examples are anything but Simple 2D videos aren't they?
I mean, I can't possibly present a better use case, and proof, than homestarrunner.


You're being melodramatic. There is nothing stopping the Brothers Chaps from using Flash to do their animations forever. If you're bent on watching them, Chrome ships with a PPAPI Flash player, which is updated whenever the browser is updated (so about every 20 minutes haha), or there are gobs of offline open- and closed-source players available.

The world doesn't owe you vector-based cartoons on the Internet. Adobe has no obligation to continue the development of a platform that has, irrespective of what Apple and Google do, been in decline since the late 00's.

Flash was never "killed off" by anybody, it died of its own accord because HTML5 replaced the functionality that most of Macromedia/Adobe's customers used it for.

Your cartoons are collateral damage, and I'm not saying that doesn't suck, but jesus christ, perspective.


Flash can die in a fire.

 

 

To be fair, when the hell am I not being melodramatic according to others? I'm just Enthusiastic regardless of the topic, positive or negative.

 

And come on man, you always accuse me of melodrama, but your responses are just as over the top.

It's not about what the world "owes me", it already gave it to me, it's about what's being taken away for 0 reason.

It's about what we, the internet culture, are losing.

 

You're missing my angle completely, we already had vector based cartoons on the internet.

There is 0 argument to be made that Vector based graphics are best, so that's not even a discussion.

 

My point was that we had a very good technology for delivering exactly that content. Nothing surpassed it, nothing even matched it, and while you're welcome to disagree, IMO the defining blow was when Apple refused to partner.

Apple is a monolith of computing power, no matter how much I hate that fact. And (until they killed the headphone jack) people just blindly went along with the 'Yep, they told me it's better, so it is' mentality.

Diversity is dying, and I'll always feel a need to speak out when I notice it.

 

It was a mature, fully featured tool, which, while it had vulnerabilities toward the end (imo trying to grow bigger than its own shoes; Flash shouldn't have userspace\kernel access in ANY way), there was little to dislike. Overhead was low, productivity was high.

 

Am I really the only user in this thread who never had a negative Flash experience?

For me, it provided hours of perfect animated entertainment, quizzes, music, and in the end youtube.

 

Maybe I was just one of the few lucky ones who never had it cryptolock my HDD or whatever else it's done to you guys to make you hate it so.


Edited by Master_Scythe, 10 February 2017 - 02:56 PM.

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#22 @~thehung

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 03:22 PM

i noticed you totally ignored the fully-fledged interactive content tools i mentioned. the first two in particular are not "work arounds". what they are is modernity. if theyre work arounds then theyre analogous to the way that doctors around the world used to communicate in Latin, but now they use English instead — as a "work around" LOL. oh won't somebody bring back the good old days, when you could exchange sophomoric humour with doctors via a dead language!

the vector based multimedia youre hung up on had maximum currency pre-youtube, when even heavily compressed QT and realplayer videos would choke the average persons dial up to death. now, video does 99% of people just fine. i instantly found a wealth of video that played just fine on newgrounds, albinoblacksheep, stickdeath...

but HTML has issues with seemless looping, yes. maybe you should contact the WC3. once they know MS wants to seemlessly loop Weebls Stuff jingles they might fast track a solution.

as for the specifically interactive stuff, as mentioned, capable HTML5 tools exist right now, but i'd wager many content creators are dragging their heels for a number of reasons:

 

- video is fine​
- flash works okay for now
- creators are disorganised/lazy and/or fear change
- creators and large audiences alike have moved the fuck on

and although ive never heard of homestarrunner, even in jest, they see the writing on the wall:


Edited by @~thehung, 10 February 2017 - 03:25 PM.

no pung intended

#23 SquallStrife

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 03:32 PM

It isn't like that at all. Nothing is being "taken away" from you. That's the melodrama I'm talking about.

It's more the case that something is atrophying and dying, than it actively being killed off. Apple might have accelerated the death of Flash, but HTML5 was on the way, it would have happened anyway.

I'm not denying Flash's place in Internet culture "history". Not at all. Flash solved a problem, it serviced a need for functionality at a time when alternatives didn't exist.

But now?
Video playback? HTML5/*264
Interactive elements on websites? HTML5/CANVAS.
Games? HTML5/CANVAS + JS.

Standards-based frameworks now exist to do /most/ of what Flash did. Not all of it, I'm not making that claim. But clearly enough of it that the product is no longer commercially viable for Adobe.

You're ascribing malice to what's pretty much a perfect demonstration of how things naturally die in the IT world.


High quality vector-based web cartoons are, as I said, collateral damage, and that's a sad thing for sure, no argument from me.
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#24 Master_Scythe

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 04:11 PM

It isn't like that at all. Nothing is being "taken away" from you. That's the melodrama I'm talking about.

It's more the case that something is atrophying and dying, than it actively being killed off. Apple might have accelerated the death of Flash, but HTML5 was on the way, it would have happened anyway.

I'm not denying Flash's place in Internet culture "history". Not at all. Flash solved a problem, it serviced a need for functionality at a time when alternatives didn't exist.

But now?
Video playback? HTML5/*264
Interactive elements on websites? HTML5/CANVAS.
Games? HTML5/CANVAS + JS.

Standards-based frameworks now exist to do /most/ of what Flash did. Not all of it, I'm not making that claim. But clearly enough of it that the product is no longer commercially viable for Adobe.

You're ascribing malice to what's pretty much a perfect demonstration of how things naturally die in the IT world.


High quality vector-based web cartoons are, as I said, collateral damage, and that's a sad thing for sure, no argument from me.

 

We actually agree on all points then, no drama.

 

The real people who lose out then seem to be the novice content creators.

I had a quick peek at ~@thehung' suggestions, and they're nowhere near as 'primary school friendly'.

 

Plus..... Vectors.....


Edited by Master_Scythe, 10 February 2017 - 04:34 PM.

Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

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#25 @~thehung

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 04:51 PM

​​

​maybe there are tools that are more noob-friendly out there?  in any case, "anyone" is free to create one if/when the demand arises. 

i think there are simple game development platforms that focus on 2D and can publish to HTML5.  probably dont use vectors, but it doesnt necessarily matter.  plenty of flash content ran at fixed sizes and used rasterised versions of vector-style art.


no pung intended

#26 Nich...

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 09:48 PM

You know what I remember about Flash the most? It being a massive fucking CPU whore.

Now, when I was a kid, it was all about Amigas and pretty much fixed hardware and making the most of it, none of this 'oh flash is cool, lets make people literally have to upgrade their computer because we're going to grind everything to a halt' business.

You know what Amigas had? Deluxe Paint, motherfuckers. That shit was the best sprite painting and animation tool in it's day. There's not even anything like it anymore - for good reason. People and technology moved on. But if I want to go back and use it, I still can.

You can go back and use flash, too, except now you're complaining that... you can't on some platforms? You want to know why flash websites like albinoblacksheet and newgrounds are still predominantly flash? Is it because migrating it all to a new platform would be a waste of time? And also potentially against licences with the content creators?
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#27 Master_Scythe

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 08:50 AM

You know what I remember about Flash the most? It being a massive fucking CPU whore.

Now, when I was a kid, it was all about Amigas and pretty much fixed hardware and making the most of it, none of this 'oh flash is cool, lets make people literally have to upgrade their computer because we're going to grind everything to a halt' business.

You know what Amigas had? Deluxe Paint, motherfuckers. That shit was the best sprite painting and animation tool in it's day. There's not even anything like it anymore - for good reason. People and technology moved on. But if I want to go back and use it, I still can.

You can go back and use flash, too, except now you're complaining that... you can't on some platforms? You want to know why flash websites like albinoblacksheet and newgrounds are still predominantly flash? Is it because migrating it all to a new platform would be a waste of time? And also potentially against licences with the content creators?

 

 

That's a good example actually; Sprites (usually for .ico files) are a key part of programming and building an application.

If it was the best, and nothing is like it anymore, then by all means be mad!

I always enjoyed the sprite editor in RPG-maker-2000 (RM2K), but now I'll have to look into Deluxe Paint.

I really enjoy sprite art, so I'm always on the lookout.

 

See I only got into computers when the 'norm' was a Pentium II 233mhz, so "being a CPU hog" was never a problem for me\flash.

By the time I got to high school, the common computer was a P2 333mhz with MMX, so it just laughed at flash, never even getting over 10% CPU.

Its starting to sound like I'm really the only one who never had a problem downloading an SWF and just enjoying the content.

I can see why it's Bias if that's the case.

 

Flash was a DOG when they started trying to push youtube through it, my god, but that was a real hack-around.

Porn-websites that used flash didnt have a problem streaming video reliably, it was some bullshit google\youtube was doing.

 

Im still trying to find a content creator where I can drag and drop\draw frame by frame as simply.

If there's a modern day competitor, by all means, link it up!

 

 

EDIT: I may have just proven myself wrong with that 'no simple tools' point....

Adobe has renamed 'Flash' to 'Animate' and is advertising "HTML5" as a media format.

I've never tried it, but has anyone? Did Adobe actually move with the times (GASP!) and bring their 'flash' tool INTO the HTML5 generation and I missed it?

I still think HTML5 is harder to cache than flash, SWF files are king, but that's about the only thing I can say if its as simple as "Design it in flash, export to HTML5"

Anyone use 'Animate'?


Edited by Master_Scythe, 24 February 2017 - 12:00 PM.

Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

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#28 Rybags

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 11:37 AM

Atari ST had a program called Cyber Paint.  Not sure if it was on any other platform.

For it's time, pretty powerful (remembering most computers had 1 Meg or less Ram to play with).  It could do full motion animation and saved space/time by having each subsequent frame compressed as a series of RLL and XOR with current data.

Sure, you'd probably have struggled to get much over 20 seconds of useful animation going on but for it's time little could match it.

 

As for modern graphical programs etc being CPU whores - half the problem is we have these nice shiny graphics cards and they have little or nothing to do with accelerating the rendering process.


Some of this is probably by other means...

 



#29 Nich...

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 12:57 PM

Straight raw flash for video usage may've been mostly ok. But I had to ditch my Athlon 500 because the web was virtually unusable thanks to flash ads. I had similar issues, later on, with my Athlon 2600 or something.


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#30 Rybags

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 02:23 PM

These days all that junk can cripple a high end i7 - doesn't help much at all that browsers are still mostly single-threaded.



#31 Master_Scythe

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 02:55 PM

These days all that junk can cripple a high end i7 - doesn't help much at all that browsers are still mostly single-threaded.

 

but it was solved pretty quickly with the "click to activate plugin" option.

So you only load the main content you want.


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"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#32 @~thehung

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 05:59 PM

EDIT: I may have just proven myself wrong with that 'no simple tools' point....

Adobe has renamed 'Flash' to 'Animate' and is advertising "HTML5" as a media format.

I've never tried it, but has anyone? Did Adobe actually move with the times (GASP!) and bring their 'flash' tool INTO the HTML5 generation and I missed it?

 

​yeah, seems like you did.  even when posted to you in your own damn thread http://forums.atomic...h/#entry1188544

​btw, what sort of thing do you personally want to create? 


no pung intended

#33 Master_Scythe

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 08:45 AM

 

EDIT: I may have just proven myself wrong with that 'no simple tools' point....

Adobe has renamed 'Flash' to 'Animate' and is advertising "HTML5" as a media format.

I've never tried it, but has anyone? Did Adobe actually move with the times (GASP!) and bring their 'flash' tool INTO the HTML5 generation and I missed it?

 

​yeah, seems like you did.  even when posted to you in your own damn thread http://forums.atomic...h/#entry1188544

​btw, what sort of thing do you personally want to create? 

 

 

Sorry for that, I completely misunderstood what it was. and was too dismissive.

 

I did genuinely have a google for those tool names, but I didn't look far enough when you said it was "written from the ground up";

Even though it's not true from a coding point of view, its more like 'Flash had other formats added' to the end user perspective.

If I'd have seen screenshots, I'd have thanked you sooner!

 

It's not so much what I want to create, as much as I don't want my most consumed form of media to go away. Web Content is by far my most consumed, and of that, "Flash Animators" usually the most witty and skilled at the comedy I enjoy.

Some youtubers get it right, but they're few and far between, newgrounds will always be the "top 10" for me.


Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"





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