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power to the people, er.... 'puter


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#1 scruffy1

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 09:20 AM

my corsair hx650 recently developed a loud whine in the fan, and though it eventually settled to a disconcerting hum, i had by then applied for rma - accepted - a mere month before the 7 year warranty expired

 

good timing, fan !

 

in retrospect, i discovered the fan had been humming for ages, and i kept thinking one of the many other fans in my rig was the culprit, but was too lazy to trouble shoot to locate it, although one fan in an earlier windforce cooled video card had also been a nuisance

 

 

so, they sent me a silent hx750i - awesome ! apart from the $80+ it cost to return the lump of a 650

 

 

the point of my thread is this : i now have 750 watts of grunt at my disposal in a platinum certified psu, that is so quiet that unless gaming with fans turned up on the rest of my rig, is less noisy than the qnap server parked above it (bloody 40mm fan is crap)

 

idling away with the i5 2500k it uses well under 100w at ~mid 80% efficiency

but even fired up at 4.2ghz on all cores with a gtx760oc plus 2x120 + 2x140 fans turned up for gaming, it is pushing it to need anywhere near 400w; and as the next "upgrade might be a gtx970 or 1060, which would use essentially the same or even less power, i got to thinking

 

the hx750i is the lowest powered high end psu corsair supply these days

 

given the power requirements of both cpu and gpu diminish with each refresh of process size, and ram gets more frugal too, why is the available power going up ?

 

yes, i know that sli and crossfire for monster video for 4k or multi-screen would use it, but for all the rest of us at 1440p or less, meh !

 

what about the average mid to mod-high end casual gamer that mostly surfs the net and does online stuff that a phone could handle ?  surely 500w is the sweet spot ?

 

shit, even for the htpc i recently thought the psu had gone to god (it was the power board i eventually discovered), there was nothing of acceptable quality under 600w for a machine that has as its most hungry component a xonar hdav1.3 sound card (at 40w), which is perfectly capable with an i3-2100 and overkill 8gig of ram and onboard video

 

 

 

tldr : why can't anyone supply low wattage power supplies of high efficiency

 

marketing hype has yum cha 1000w as more desirable than appropriate 350w gold plus

 

 

/end rant

 

comments as you see fit...

 

 

 

 

 

 


ummmmmmmmmmm............


#2 stadl

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 09:40 AM

I would expect it's the same reason why there are very few high end luxury tiny cars - smaller cars are usually shittier quality than the bigger models, because people assume a small car with 4 wheels, 4 doors and seats for 5, should cost much less than a big car with 4 wheels, 4 doors and seating for 5 - as if the $1000-2000 material costs are the only factor when the labour and cost overheads for engineering, manufacture, and retailing are similar.

 

And that perception limits market share. If a 400W top end PSU costs only a fraction less than a 650 or 750W PSU to manufacture, how much less can you sell it for? If it costs 10% less to buy, how many people will buy it rather than the larger model. If they can't get the volume on a product, it's not worth selling it retail.

 

However in the brand name market, there are plenty of good efficiency, low wattage PSUs running brand name PCs, where the PSU is not branded - the same factory/designers may be making it, but they have high volume, no marketing costs and that $2 manufacturing cost delta is important.


A device so simple that it took a mind as brilliant as mine to create it! So brilliant, in fact, that simply by harnessing the power of one live frog, it... it... uhh... <poke> <poke> ... World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Talk amongst yourselves.


#3 Cybes

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 10:32 AM

...given the power requirements of both cpu and gpu diminish with each refresh of process size


Wouldn't count on that happening for much longer. Fabs are finding it increasingly difficult to shrink die sizes - the "tick tock" model is history already.

"Reality does not care what you think." - Dr Richard Feynman
"Ideas do not deserve respect.- people do." - Peter Boghossian (paraphrase)


#4 @~thehung

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 04:10 PM

why can't anyone supply low wattage power supplies of high efficiency?


why does it matter?

​from a price point of view -

you pay such a high premium for high end PSUs compared to entry level units (around %180+, or roughly +$100), that the cost of more or less wattage (around ± $20 per 100W) is a barely significant proportion of the total price.  youre not so much paying for 'wattage you dont need' so much as a quality level for components that is required either way.

​from an efficiency point of view -

​i doubt your PSU would do significantly more/less damage to your electricity bill than, say, a theoretical 450W version in the same series.

​from a space point of view -

​nah, its probably ATX


Edited by @~thehung, 13 February 2017 - 04:21 PM.

no pung intended

#5 scruffy1

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 04:51 PM

 

...given the power requirements of both cpu and gpu diminish with each refresh of process size


Wouldn't count on that happening for much longer. Fabs are finding it increasingly difficult to shrink die sizes - the "tick tock" model is history already.

 

 

i remember well when my wolfdale was considered as small a process as could practically be fabricated, due to leakage and other issues

 

we were warned that they would degrade with overvolting, etc, etc

 

 

some years later, the 45nm process they came from is old hat, and canonlake is due to appear at 10nm

 

seems the clock is still tick-(tock)-ing to me

 

 

my point being that 90+% efficiency at high watts is pointless if it's only just ~80% at lower watts

 

 

yes it's not a lot of difference in absolute power, but it's the same reason my light bulbs are now mostly led's, and my white goods are all 4 star plus - my quarterly power bill is probably way less than most people, and the cost of electricity isn't getting cheaper any time in my life - even solar is only truly sensible if you use lots of power in the day time, since they changed the buy back arrangements

 

i tried to figure what benefit there was to me, and at my (family) consumption, it is cheaper to minimise use than pay off the 1.5wkw of production that would be most appropriate - the current cost would take almost a decade to defray, but in the next few years it will be a better deal no doubt

 

and to @~thehung : squeezing the hx750i into my mid-size lian li was a shoehorn job :)


ummmmmmmmmmm............


#6 Cybes

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 06:46 PM

seems the clock is still tick-(tock)-ing to me



Particularly from the 44s mark onward.

Still, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there were quite some advances still to come on the ol' silicon - just slower than we're used to.

"Reality does not care what you think." - Dr Richard Feynman
"Ideas do not deserve respect.- people do." - Peter Boghossian (paraphrase)


#7 scruffy1

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 08:47 PM

thanks for that video...  my i5 2500k is one reason they aren't getting wealthy (3.5 years on my 2nd hand one that still kicks arse)  :)


ummmmmmmmmmm............





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