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Making the world's biggest military even bigger, watch out China!

military china trump US Army Navy

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#1 smadge1

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 12:54 PM

I was reading about how Trump wants to give the US Defense force a whole wad of extra cash, and I'm wondering, if they are no longer fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan, who are they going to war with?

 

China?

 

http://theconversati...-strategy-73883

 

 

President Donald Trump just released a budget plan intended to fulfill a promise to rebuild the military with “one of the largest increases in national defense spending in American history.”

 

Specifically, Trump wants to boost “base” military spending by US$52.3 billion to $574 billion, an increase of 10 percent over fiscal year 2016. Separately, he’s requesting $65 billion for ongoing wars.

 

Trump’s rhetoric aside, a 10 percent increase would not actually rank among the nation’s largest, as many quickly pointed out. But that exaggeration should not be the central concern for Americans as they monitor how Trump and Congress debate how to spend their hard-earned dollars. The real problem is whether any increase is justified.

 


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#2 chrisg

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 01:27 PM

Chaotic world, if the US backs off militarily others will take advantage of the void they would leave, but the surge in spending has more to do with ME activity than anything else - " no boots on the ground" in Syria has not exactly worked with an entire detachment of Marines in there...

 

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#3 tastywheat

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 02:23 PM

I think it's concerning.  Trump's erratic actions are going beyond what is normally expected of a Republican President.  I'm sure most of you have seen the poster making rounds on social media:

 

fascism.jpg

 

It was misreported as something from the Nazi holocaust era.  It was actually only authored in 2003 by Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt, who was studying social behaviours in Germany, Italy, Spain, Indonesia, and Chile that lead to the rise of Fascism.  

 

What I take from it is that the increase in military spending might not have any connection with external factors, and is actually intended to increase a sense of nationalism and superiority among his supporters, which in turn will allow him to claim more power.  

 

He's obviously a megalomaniac from my perspective, so it follows that his actions are primarily directed towards fulfilling such desires, without necessarily considering the likely outcomes.  I don't for a moment think Trump is pro-fascism, or that he identifies his actions as fascist.  I think he just wants power and admiration.  The problem is that he has no interest in historical lessons, or engaging with alternative opinions/ideas (it's all alternative facts, fake news, bias etc).


Edited by tastywheat, 17 March 2017 - 02:25 PM.


#4 TheManFromPOST

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 05:10 PM

going to war with china, what would be the point?

I assume they (China) have nukes, I would also assume they would have less hesitation in launching a few


Edited by TheManFromPOST, 17 March 2017 - 05:11 PM.


#5 Jeruselem

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 07:10 PM

To pay for new war toys, Trump has to cut domestic spending on other things risking even more angry citizens which you don't want in such a fragmented place like the USA.

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#6 chrisg

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 05:26 AM

going to war with china, what would be the point?

I assume they (China) have nukes, I would also assume they would have less hesitation in launching a few

They do, but not that many compared to the U.S and essentially they are obsolete anyway. nukes age out and they don't really maintain theirs very well. Whether they have a delivery system set up to hit the States, much more uncertain.

 

China is not stupid, they know the sheer throw weight of the biggest nuclear capable nation on earth, can't see it happening, but this whole South Chine Sea situation needs to be resolved.

 

The U.S has 10 carrier groups, all of which carry nukes, and a lot of SLBMS.

 

I've no idea where the latter are but two of the groups are in or near the disputed waters, not a good idea to argue with them.

 

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Edited by chrisg, 18 March 2017 - 05:27 AM.

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#7 scruffy1

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 12:21 PM

late february i wrote to another forum :

 

personally, my view is that trump's current plan is to start ww3 noting that america has historically always done well after world wars, and less so after lesser incursions - so first he reigns in money from foreign aid, because he doesn't want to assist foreigners spending it on defending themselves from his expansion

the "sensible" thing to do would be take on north korea, and after "success" there he will have a foothold to invade china, with the added bonus that kim jong-un may well sling his tactical nukes on the nearest obvious targets before they go down, taking the manufacturing giants of korea and japan out ofthe market, freeing up space for the 'mericans in what might be left

you heard it here first, only a month from april fools' day... i got malcolm turnbull's career path ascendancy accurately predicted over a decade before he got up, including knifing the incumbent before that was even the standard australian political promotion mechanism

 

there's not room on the planet for two leaders with the worst hair style

 

and today i read on the web :

"US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson says it may be necessary to take pre-emptive military action against North Korea if the threat from their weapons program reaches a level that the United States believes requires action. "

 

and i would add that china lacks practical ability to hit the potus from where they're sitting, but he can hammer them without leaving trump towers


Edited by scruffy1, 18 March 2017 - 12:21 PM.

ummmmmmmmmmm............


#8 Jeruselem

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 04:13 PM

Yeah, the plans to trump tower were sitting on a secret service laptop and it was stolen. Now, what if this laptop got to the Chinese?

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#9 chrisg

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 05:29 PM

I really do not understand how it can make any difference - Trump Tower is open to the public, I've been there several times. good food places on the ground and first floor and I've had a couple of clients before now with businesses in there.

 

I've no idea of the upper floors where the Trumps live but I can tell you the security is very good,

 

All of the floors I've seen are much the same, like any high rise and being where it is a 9/11 style thing would never work.

 

A load of conspiracy rubbish I suspect.

 

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#10 tastywheat

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:14 PM

the "sensible" thing to do would be take on north korea, and after "success" there he will have a foothold to invade china, with the added bonus that kim jong-un may well sling his tactical nukes on the nearest obvious targets before they go down, taking the manufacturing giants of korea and japan out ofthe market, freeing up space for the 'mericans in what might be left

you heard it here first, only a month from april fools' day... 

 

It's possible this is his angle, but attacking North Korea would instantly trigger all-out-war with China.  China have been supporting North Korea for the entirely selfish reason of keeping a buffer zone between their borders and US allies, which prevents (or at least severely inhibits) the possibility of a land based invasion.  

 

The US recently installed anti-missle batteries in South Korea, which has triggered a nation-wide boycott of anything South Korean in China.  To the extent that airlines and cruise ships have had to cancel or readjust routes, most Korean music and TV shows (previously extremely popular) have been censored, and Korean restaurants are frantically trying to rebrand themselves (or simply closing).  The thing to note here is that the THAAD missile system can't really be used for offence.  It is very specifically designed to intercept high altitude ballistic missiles, destroying them with the kinetic energy of impact as opposed to an explosive charge.  China is pissed specifically because it reduces the impact of North Korean attacks, or their own.



#11 chrisg

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:14 PM

Hmm,

 

Did they have any choice though Tasty?

 

Given the way the North Korean lunatic keeps threatening all and sundry who supposedly offend him and the demonstrated presence of at least rudimentary nukes in their arsenal plus a few IRBM launches THAAD was an obvious deployment and unlike early Patriots it actually works.

 

I really do not understand the Chinese reaction, if anything the deployment stabilises things.

 

THAAD was not specifically developed for the Korean situation though, it is cropping up all over the place, a lot of orders placed from the ME and Taiwan is in the queue.

 

As I said before China is not stupid but if they want a war it will be over in twenty minutes and the place will be a radio active desert but let's hope it never comes to that...

 

Cheers


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#12 Master_Scythe

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:18 PM

Yeah, the plans to trump tower were sitting on a secret service laptop and it was stolen. Now, what if this laptop got to the Chinese?

 

Whats the relevance to this?

The external plans are accessible to the public from building orders.

And if you really wanted to know how the insides link up, I'd imagine you'd be way better off paying off a security guard; considering USA's low base pay.

 

"Stolen plans" for a giant building in the middle of other giant buildings isn't really a worry... to what extent would you see them being used?


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#13 tastywheat

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 04:02 PM

I really do not understand the Chinese reaction, if anything the deployment stabilises things.

 

 

...

 

As I said before China is not stupid but if they want a war it will be over in twenty minutes and the place will be a radio active desert but let's hope it never comes to that...

 

The mentality is extremely simple.  Pure selfishness, characterised by a complete lack of interest in all things that don't directly affect their sense of nationalism.

 

China has specifically been propping up the NK regime because of the convenient threat they present against SK.  It ties up their military-industrial complex in managing self-defence, reducing its capacity to develop offensive capabilities against China.  There's been some hesitation recently since it becomes more apparent that there is a very real potential for NK to go rogue, but that's not based on the millions of lives that would be lost as Seoul gets pummelled by artillery.  It's driven purely by the negative impact this might have on China in terms of strategic advantage, economic trade, or nuclear fallout.

 

Change to China is almost seen as negative:

 

Societies differ greatly in their general attitude toward change. People who revere the past and preoccupied with traditions and rituals will change slowly and unwillingly. When a culture has been relatively static for a long time the people are likely to assume that it should remain so indefinitely. They are intensely and unconsciously ethnocentric; they assume that their customs and techniques are correct and everlasting. A possible change is unlikely even to be seriously considered.  

 

It's the same uncritical nationalism and selfishness that is driving the fortification of the South China Sea (based on Qing Dynasty era borders), the oppression of the Uyghurs in Xinjiang (which predictably is starting to create a domestic terrorism/freedom fighter issue), the oppression of the Tibetans, the longstanding conflict with Taiwan, and the burgeoning conflict over judicial independence with Hong Kong.  

 

It's a mindset that's 400 years old, reinvigorated by nationalist programming under Mao, and unlikely to change anytime soon based on my experiences with the education system.



#14 @~thehung

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 04:54 PM

i'd love to know how successful China has been in infiltrating NK's politburo/secretariat/control committee/party central.  they seem uniquely placed.  theyve had the time, reasonably good relations, and have considerable resources.  NK is beneficial to them in many ways, but not something to be left festering unchecked.  and i guess you would also have a number of SK operatives poking around variously in cahoots with the west, or china, or both...


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#15 tastywheat

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 06:20 PM

I'd suggest they've been somewhat successful.  

 

ZTE (a cheap phone manufacturer) just got handed a $1.1 Billion USD fine for supplying NK with American technology in violation of trade sanctions.  In most situations, you'd expect some sort of protest to such a significant fine.  ZTE aren't even contesting it, they're trying to keep it as low profile as possible.

 

It's these sort of 'favours' that relationships in Confucian Heritage Cultures are built on.  NK certainly aren't allowing peasants to own smartphones, so I'd suggest the cell tower infrastructure is being reserved for the military/government elites.



#16 Jeruselem

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 07:41 PM

ZTE make most of telstras budget phones.

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#17 smadge1

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 08:53 AM

i'd love to know how successful China has been in infiltrating NK's politburo/secretariat/control committee/party central.  they seem uniquely placed.  theyve had the time, reasonably good relations, and have considerable resources.  NK is beneficial to them in many ways, but not something to be left festering unchecked.  and i guess you would also have a number of SK operatives poking around variously in cahoots with the west, or china, or both...

 

How long do you think North Korea would survive if China wanted it gone? I think NK is almost a province of China. What I want to know is, how disillusioned is Jung-Un??


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#18 seehund

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 09:50 AM

i'd love to know how successful China has been in infiltrating NK's politburo/secretariat/control committee/party central.  they seem uniquely placed.  theyve had the time, reasonably good relations, and have considerable resources.  NK is beneficial to them in many ways, but not something to be left festering unchecked.  and i guess you would also have a number of SK operatives poking around variously in cahoots with the west, or china, or both...

 

It's really not in China's best interests to let the NK "govt" fall apart. Millions of starving, indoctrinated racists pouring across the land-bridge is one thing for them, but it'd also be one of the biggest humanitarian aid disasters on the planet. Not to mention it'd probably bankrupt the SK govt if they tried a German style reunification.

 

Sadly the status quo works for everyone.



#19 chrisg

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:05 PM

Sadly I don't think the North Koreans want reunification anyway, they started the war after all and it reached an uneasy armistice 64 years ago that remains unsettled. Given the life spans in NK that is probably three or more generations of persistent indoctrination.

 

SK is a very wealthy country but it is a wholly different situation to Germany where the East Germans did not want to be under the thrall of the USSR. TBH I had fears for Germany when they re-unified but it has worked out fine, mainly through simple hard work.

 

I was back there a few years ago, everyone seemed pretty cool with the integration.

 

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#20 seehund

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:36 PM

Of course NK won't want reunification, which is why they're more likely to just walk en masse to China if the whole thing fell apart. China absolutely will not want that.






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