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[Another] London Terror Attack


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#201 tastywheat

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 06:19 AM

So basically, the Middle eastern countries need to get together , find a way to exist next to each other, take care of their own problems , and tell the west not to interfere?

So where are these Muslim peace makes trying to make this happen?

 

What demands do you think accompanies every terrorist attack?  Different groups have been telling us to stop interfering for quite literally the last century.

 

Regarding Muslim movements towards peace, again I assume you're actually not interested in the answer, since it contradicts your warring Muzzo thesis.  A few minutes on google would have yielded the following:

 

Malala Yousafzai, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2013)

CUGc94PXIAEvm4m.jpg

 

Advocates for Education, particularly the education of Women.  Asks the West to send books instead of bombs and guns.

 

Tawakkol Karman, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2011)

CUHQMU-WIAAIbYI.jpg

 

Advocate for democracy, a non-violent approach, and women's rights in Yemen.

 

Mohamed ElBaradei, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2005)

el-Baradei.jpg

 

Egyptian advocate for non-proliferation, and conscientious objector to the Mubarak regime.

 

Shirin Ebadi, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2003)

shirin_ebadi.jpg

 

Iranian lawyer and advocate for Human Rights.

 

Manal al-Sharif

 

manal_al_sharif.jpg

 

Saudi Women's rights activist, and critic of Islamic dictatorships.

 

Dr. Hawa Abdi

Hawa-Abdi.jpg

 

Somali human rights activist who set up hospitals to treat the victims of the Somali civil war.

 

30,000 Muslims in London protesting against ISIS

CeremonieDecesHusseinLondre.jpg

 

Thousands of German Muslims protesting against Terrorism

german-muslims.jpg

 

Pakistani's protesting terrorist attacks in Syria

pakistani-muslims-protest-against-the-ro

 

Indian Muslims Protesting Against ISIS

R7VCbOO.jpg

 

Belgian Muslims protesting against the terrorist attacks

Cu1zCweWAAA0BN7.jpg

 

French Muslims protesting against ISIS

BN-ES939_0926FR_G_20140926151428.jpg

 

Indonesian Muslims protesting for Peace

7997352-3x2-940x627.jpg

 

Thai Muslims Protest for Peace

r960-bb5ebe7c6e60ecb2bc7f617f455de7ea.jp

 

Iraqi Muslims Protesting For Peace

RTXZ120-570.jpg

 

Syrian Muslims protesting for peace between Muslims and Christians

SIRIA_-_cristiani_musulmani_pace.jpg

 

Egyption Muslims demonstration in support of Christian cooperation

alg-egypt-koran-jpg.jpg

 

American Muslims protesting against ISIS

tumblr_nzzepwUhsZ1ril4sro1_1280.jpg

 

International Muslim Organisations that call for peace

http://www.muslimsforpeace.org

https://www.seedsofpeace.org

https://www.muslims4peace.org

http://salaminstitute.org

http://standforpeace.org.uk/

https://en.wikipedia...eace_Initiative

http://www.arabhra.org

http://www.batshalom.org

http://www.peres-center.org

http://www.oic-oci.org

https://www.childrenofpeace.org.uk

http://www.taayush.org

http://en.yozmim.org

https://en.wikipedia...l_organization)

https://www.handinhandk12.org

 

The Western media doesn't promote this sort of stuff, so unless you pay attention to alternative news sources, or invest time in trying to understand the problem, it's not surprising that you were not aware of the Muslim reaction to what's going on.

 

 

 

 

But getting back to the OP
Do you think these lone wolf attackers are trying to right an historic wrong
Or they using religion as an excuse to stick it to authority?

 

We have overwhelming military superiority, so I think they're retaliating for Western involvement in the Middle East in the only way they can.  As Rybags and ChrisG demonstrated earlier in this thread, the logic justifying attacks that lead to collateral damage is not unique to Muslims.  The difference is we never intentionally target civilians, where as Islamic Extremists do.


Edited by tastywheat, 10 April 2017 - 06:51 AM.


#202 Leonid

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 10:39 AM

We assist middle eastern dictators because Arabs hate each other.

And the only path to stability is secular genocidaires who are happy to kill a few hundred thousand Arabs if the latter get uppity or start some sectarian shit with the villages next door.

It's why I generally support leaving Assad in charge of Syria.

Also fyi, you scored another own goal re the 30,000 Muslims in London protesting against ISIS.

Those are Ahmadi Muslims. They're a tiny minority of Muslims world wide and wherever they love in the Muslim world, they're oppressed and usually not allowed to call themselves Muslims or build mosques, consecrated as mosques.

Also "Egyption Muslims demonstration in support of Christian cooperation"

Between 80% and 90% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy so their protest against extremism is:
A. Hypocritical
B. Unwelcome
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#203 elvenwhore

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 09:07 PM

Leonid, you make my head hurt sometimes. 


Everything I say has come before. Everything I say has come before. Wait - dammit! Oh well, I like you more than reject popcorn bits :-)

#204 Leonid

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 01:03 AM

Leonid, you make my head hurt sometimes. 


It's just basic reality.

People who protest ISIS but endorse state-sanctioned murder for apostasy, aren't moderates.

People whom the majority of Muslims don't consider Muslims and actively oppress, are our friends but let's not hold them up as some sort of majority. They're a tiny oppressed minority and stopping Islamic conservatism among Sunnis and evangelical Shia extremism is in their self-interest.

As for Assad - there's a truism that what happens after a revolution is usually worse than what was there before. Assad is a special kind of asshole but until unicorns start farting roses in Atlantis, whoever comes after him will have to rule over sectarian Arabs none of whom want anything like a liberal secular democracy.

So why demand Assad out when his replacement will have to be exactly the same?

Haven't we learner when that fuckwit-in-chief, Obama, put the Brotherhood front and centre in his 2009 Cairo speech, empowering them and leading to the fall of Mubarak whom he failed to back? And then Egypt went through 2 years of Islamist rule, to the point where people rejoiced when Al-Sissi staged a coup and imprisoned the brotherhood (not good enough, should've used rat poison) and the entire liberal minority as well.

So why did we get rid of Mubarak to get Al-Sissi? What did we get out of that except 2 years of Islamolunatics holding the reigns of power and tunnelling themselves further into Egypt's fabric like the crazed dirty rodents that they are? Couldn't we have just kept Mubarak?

So why are we getting rid of Assad? Is there a better genocidaire out there that we think would do a better job?
"I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees." - Stephane Charbonnier (1967-2015)

"If liberty means anything, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell

#205 Leonid

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 05:25 AM

I follow a woman on Facebook. She is the survivor of this terror attack: https://en.wikipedia..._Kristine_Luken

Long story short - two women were hiking through Israel, one a dual Israeli-British citizen of Jewish ethnicity, one an American Christian, wanting to see the holy land.

They were set upon by Arab savages who stabbed them. The Israeli-British one survived by playing dead, even as they stabbed her repeatedly. Once the attack stopped, the bound and bleeding lady, staggered 1.2km to a family having a picnic. She was taken Hadassah Ein Kerem Hospital where an Arab Muslim doctor stitched her up and saved her life.

The savages were captured and are spending time in an Israeli jail, but Israel being who they are, and the Islamist dogs they have for neighbours in Gaza, being who they are - there is always the risk that they will be swapped for a captured soldier, etc, to live out their lives as heroes in the mini-caliphate Gaza has been turned into.

The Israeli-British woman has been fighting for 6 years to have the American justice system actually arraign or charge, or hell... do anything... to deliver American justice should these scum ever be released.

For 6 years she hit a wall with the administration of Obama.

Last night, Trump's administration delivered the goods:
https://www.justice....national-israel

Her take on it:
"So I can only speak from personal experience of my dealings with USA officials concerning this horrible event. My conclusion is that I see a marked difference between the former and present admin - the latter being very much in my favour."

This means that any prisoner release these Islamo-fascists were hoping for, comes with a free flight to JFK and a date with America's justice for murdering their citizens. I'm assuming the penalty isn't pretty.
"I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees." - Stephane Charbonnier (1967-2015)

"If liberty means anything, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell

#206 tastywheat

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 01:15 PM

What's the moral of this story?  If stabbed and killed in a foreign country, your government should intervene to ensure justice is served?

 

Doesn't the Australian government essentially already do that?



#207 TheManFromPOST

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 01:49 PM

What's the moral of this story?  If stabbed and killed in a foreign country, your government should intervene to ensure justice is served?

 

Doesn't the Australian government essentially already do that?

not really, our government cannot force anything



#208 chrisg

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 01:55 PM

Hmm,

 

I think the point Leo was at least partly making was that it was a Muslim Arab doctor who saved her life.

 

I've lived in Israel and fought for it, it can be a very violent country, especially outside the big cities which do tend to be well policed. It's not a place I travel in unarmed and I'm totally allowed to carry but two women traveling outside the cities, plain stupid...

 

That said it is a beautiful place with beautiful people, you just need to be careful and treat it as if you are in an enduring war-zone, because you are.

 

Cheers


 

What's the moral of this story?  If stabbed and killed in a foreign country, your government should intervene to ensure justice is served?

 

Doesn't the Australian government essentially already do that?

not really, our government cannot force anything

 

Well, we could, we have one of the best SF forces in the world just down the road from me, but Turnbull has not even bothered to visit them yet.

 

They don't really care about that, I was there a month ago, basic summary from the bad asses, he's a fuckwit....

 

Cheers


"Specialisation is for Insects" RAH

#209 Leonid

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 03:04 PM

What's the moral of this story?  If stabbed and killed in a foreign country, your government should intervene to ensure justice is served?
 
Doesn't the Australian government essentially already do that?


Maybe ours does, but not one single Palestinian has ever been arraigned in America in the last 8 years for murdering American citizens in Israel.

Arab terrorists know that jail in Israel is temporary as they'll get traded.

Being arraigned in America means their only path to freedom is via extradition and jail time in the United States.

Personally I think we should find a nice sub-Antarctic island and ship all terrorists there.
"I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees." - Stephane Charbonnier (1967-2015)

"If liberty means anything, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell

#210 tastywheat

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 04:18 PM

Again, I ask what the learning outcomes from your story are?  Failure to properly manage crime incentivises it?


Edited by tastywheat, 14 April 2017 - 04:59 PM.


#211 TheManFromPOST

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 04:39 PM

Israel will always do what is in Israels interests

Trump must have promised them something, or his bombing of Syria has shown that he will take action



#212 chrisg

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 05:33 PM

Israel will always do what is in Israels interests

Trump must have promised them something, or his bombing of Syria has shown that he will take action

Every country does what is in its best interest mate, even this place, just Israel has a tendency, being sort of surrounded by enemies,most of them much less aggressive than they once were, to shoot first and ask questions after.

 

Syria had nothing to do with Israel at al., I dunno if Trump  has taken much if any notice of Israel at all yet, the word from Washington is they know how to look after themselves, which is very true. But if anyone was so stupid as to launch such an attack on Israel they'd need a new country tomorrow.

 

Cheers


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#213 Leonid

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 07:32 PM

Again, I ask what the learning outcomes from your story are?  Failure to properly manage crime incentivises it?


That. And the fact that Obama was a shit house foreign policy president.
"I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees." - Stephane Charbonnier (1967-2015)

"If liberty means anything, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell

#214 tastywheat

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 08:59 PM

That. And the fact that Obama was a shit house foreign policy president.

 

I agree that the Obama administration's foreign policies were a significant point of failure, but likely for different reasons.  

 

On an international scale, I don't see the murder of a single person, and the attempted murder of another in an area of high crime, as a significant incident.  Even on a domestic level, I think it's a misappropriation of the term to call this a terrorist attack.  Americans killed in Caracas might be victims of pathological ideologies, but that doesn't imply that they're victims of terrorism.  It's important to call a spade a spade, so that we're able to distinguish it from a shovel.

 

Make no mistake, Obama inherited a clusterfuck, but there we decisions he made that I think were pretty poorly thought out:

  • Expanding the role of drone strikes in Afghanistan, Algeria, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen.  Of particular concern was the murder of US citizens without trial, and the number of civilian casualties.
  • Material support was given to Gaddafi prior to the civil war that started in 2011 to 'assist in the management of Islamic Terrorism'.  There were very clear lessons from that should have come from giving Saddam Huessein arms, so I can't see the logic in repeating this mistake with $1B USD in cash and arms given to Gaddafi.  The subsequent intervention after the Arab spring revolution is something Obama admits was his worst mistake.
  • Withdrawal of troops from Iraq and Afghanistan.  Withdrawing the troops was a good decision in my opinion, but the power vacuum left behind needed to be managed.  Ideally, I think funding an Islamic coalition to take over the peace keeping duties would have been a potential solution that should have been negotiated before withdrawal. (Learning from the lessons of the previous point, funding should have been strictly limited to cash and material for operations, with no part of it going to providing arms)
  • Support of the Trans-Pacific Partnership.  Deals that benefit citizens aren't held behind closed doors, with undue influence from multinational corporations.

Edited by tastywheat, 14 April 2017 - 09:00 PM.


#215 @~thehung

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 01:10 AM

interesting interview from German international broadcaster Deutsche Welle:

 

As Russia and the West trade bitter accusations over the American air raid in Syria, DW’s Conflict Zone is in Moscow to speak to leading Russian politician Konstantin Kosachev, who calls the US missile strike against a Syrian air base “a very strong violations of international law.”
 
http://www.dailymoti...dw-english_news


no pung intended

#216 tastywheat

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 01:47 AM

 “a very strong violations of international law.”

 

This is the component that I think more conscientious people should object to.

 

Of course Assad is a controversial leader/dictator.  Of course using chemical weapons against your own people is heinous crime that contravenes international law.  

 

But the thing that separates civilised society from what came before (i.e. might is right), is a structured process for dealing with these sorts of things.  It has a greater impact to do things properly, respecting international law, than it does to do things based on emotional response, or incomplete facts.



#217 Leonid

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 01:52 AM

“a very strong violations of international law.”[/i]


He's very right. It is a violation of international law.

Which is a good thing. The more the West violates international law to destroy elements that piss on it daily and have done so for 72 years, the sooner the UN will fall apart like the League of Nations.
"I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees." - Stephane Charbonnier (1967-2015)

"If liberty means anything, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell

#218 Leonid

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 02:14 AM


That. And the fact that Obama was a shit house foreign policy president.

 
I agree that the Obama administration's foreign policies were a significant point of failure, but likely for different reasons.  
 
On an international scale, I don't see the murder of a single person, and the attempted murder of another in an area of high crime, as a significant incident.  Even on a domestic level, I think it's a misappropriation of the term to call this a terrorist attack.  Americans killed in Caracas might be victims of pathological ideologies, but that doesn't imply that they're victims of terrorism.  It's important to call a spade a spade, so that we're able to distinguish it from a shovel.
 
Make no mistake, Obama inherited a clusterfuck, but there we decisions he made that I think were pretty poorly thought out:
  • Expanding the role of drone strikes in Afghanistan, Algeria, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen.  Of particular concern was the murder of US citizens without trial, and the number of civilian casualties.
  • Material support was given to Gaddafi prior to the civil war that started in 2011 to 'assist in the management of Islamic Terrorism'.  There were very clear lessons from that should have come from giving Saddam Huessein arms, so I can't see the logic in repeating this mistake with $1B USD in cash and arms given to Gaddafi.  The subsequent intervention after the Arab spring revolution is something Obama admits was his worst mistake.
  • Withdrawal of troops from Iraq and Afghanistan.  Withdrawing the troops was a good decision in my opinion, but the power vacuum left behind needed to be managed.  Ideally, I think funding an Islamic coalition to take over the peace keeping duties would have been a potential solution that should have been negotiated before withdrawal. (Learning from the lessons of the previous point, funding should have been strictly limited to cash and material for operations, with no part of it going to providing arms)
  • Support of the Trans-Pacific Partnership.  Deals that benefit citizens aren't held behind closed doors, with undue influence from multinational corporations.

Add:
* Completely misreading the Arab Spring
* Abandoning a US ally (Yemen) completely, then having a whinge when Saudi Arabia started bombing civilians.
* Abandoning Mubarak after elevating the Muslim Brotherhood.
* Speaking out against the anti-Muslim film which launched the riots across the Muslim world in 2011, instead of the rioting savages
* Ingratiating himself with Arabs (a failed attempt) by distancing America a little from Israel.
* The Libyan intervention. The man's a fucking dumbarse - but even he had to see that there was no alternative to Gaddafi. And after all that, and the ouster of Mubarak and Morsi - he still sees a future for Syria without Assad?
* The Iran deal. You don't give $150b to people who spend their days chanting "Death to America" and fund people killing your allies. You MOAB them.
* The Syria "Red Line"
* Retreating from Iraq against all military advice, opening up a playground for ISIS
* Pulling assets out of South Sudan after the Bush Administration's success in stopping the bloodshed there. Even when South Sudanese officials implored the Obama administration to send further assistance to the newly-formed country, the president refused. Witness the result: child soldiers, rape, genocide.
* Normalising relations with Cuba.

That's just some. There have been many others.

President Bush managed at least two foreign policy successes - Sudan and Kosovo. Name one Obama success? You can't, can you?
"I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees." - Stephane Charbonnier (1967-2015)

"If liberty means anything, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell

#219 tastywheat

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 02:21 AM

President Bush managed at least two foreign policy successes - Sudan and Kosovo. Name one Obama success? You can't, can you?

 

Objectively, the Sudan policies were a failure.  The situation in Sudan is far worse now than it was during the Bush administration.



#220 Leonid

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 03:06 AM

President Bush managed at least two foreign policy successes - Sudan and Kosovo. Name one Obama success? You can't, can you?

 
Objectively, the Sudan policies were a failure.  The situation in Sudan is far worse now than it was during the Bush administration.


Yeah, because Obama pulled US assets out of South Sudan while the South Sudanese were begging for them to stay.

The situation unravelled after that.

It's worth remembering that when Bush came to power, there were civil wars going on in Sudan, Congo, Angola, Liberia and Sierra Leone. By the end of his first term, all of them were over.
"I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees." - Stephane Charbonnier (1967-2015)

"If liberty means anything, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell




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