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[Another] London Terror Attack


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#241 tastywheat

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 04:15 PM

There's no point talking about a co flict when the person you're talking to claims knowledge of political events because they worked 700km from the border.

The average refugee you met, doesn't know the geopolitical plays. They just know what happens to them and those they know.

Geopolitical is actually best studied afar.

 

I agree with you on this point.  I had no knowledge of the details of the CPA, or John Danforth before starting this discussion.  Close proximity to an incident doesn't imply knowledge of how it started, or diplomatic missions that attempted to broker peace, but failed.

 

I responded to your claim that Bush resolved the conflict in Sudan, because I knew for a fact it was bullshit.  I was in Northern Kenya in 2009, 2011, and worked there in 2013/2014 (while the civil war broke out).  South Sudan was never 'ravelled' or peaceful.  I worked backwards from these observations to demonstrate that your claim was false.



#242 Master_Scythe

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 09:01 AM

So, another shooting in Europe eh?

Wonder who's flag they'll wave....

 

It's always a wonder what 'the plan' was when idiots do things like this....


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#243 eveln

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 07:09 PM

So, another shooting in Europe eh?

Wonder who's flag they'll wave....

 

It's always a wonder what 'the plan' was when idiots do things like this....

re the underlined : to cause pain for someone else.


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#244 elvenwhore

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 09:19 PM

It's always a wonder what 'the plan' was when idiots do things like this....

I've taken to reading up about the role of propaganda in peace time and in war time, as well as psychology journal articles regarding social manipulation. Also very interesting reading is material from former self-identified "terrorists" (think, IRA, white supremacists). It's the same, or similar, roots that hook these people into these causes, every time. Should almost be compulsory reading in these times. Highly recommended for broadening understanding :-) 


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#245 Mac Dude

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:09 PM

Also very interesting reading is material from former self-identified "terrorists" (think, IRA, white supremacists). It's the same, or similar, roots that hook these people into these causes, every time. Should almost be compulsory reading in these times. Highly recommended for broadening understanding :-)


What I find really bizarre is that the internet makes it easier for us to stay narrow in our views rather than broadening our horizons. By default social media feeds us news that supports our point of view and as such cements us in our opinionated bunkers.

Having an open mind is more difficult than in ye olde days me thinks...
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#246 chrisg

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 08:20 AM

 

Also very interesting reading is material from former self-identified "terrorists" (think, IRA, white supremacists). It's the same, or similar, roots that hook these people into these causes, every time. Should almost be compulsory reading in these times. Highly recommended for broadening understanding :-)


What I find really bizarre is that the internet makes it easier for us to stay narrow in our views rather than broadening our horizons. By default social media feeds us news that supports our point of view and as such cements us in our opinionated bunkers.

Having an open mind is more difficult than in ye olde days me thinks...

 

:)

 

Not really, I find just disagreeing with everyone in power and hating anyone who is hurting/killing people anywhere works quite well :)

 

Mind you, I do not do FB and I'm reminded daily why I do not with the crap my wife reads out to me :)

 

Cheers


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#247 Leonid

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 08:25 PM

Where did I say "caused the situation to unravel"?

If you're going to pretend I said something, can I have a photo of you so I can see if you are a match for Melissa McCarthy on SNL?

Maybe she can do you right after Spicer?
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#248 tastywheat

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 09:44 PM

Where did I say "caused the situation to unravel"?

 

Oh, so you agree then that Obama stopping a training program for people who use child soldiers had absolutely nothing to do with the 'situation unravelling'?



#249 Leonid

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 06:16 AM

Where did I say "caused the situation to unravel"?

 
Oh, so you agree then that Obama stopping a training program for people who use child soldiers had absolutely nothing to do with the 'situation unravelling'?


I do. I merely make the point that it was shitty policy, given he reversed it anyway in 2016.
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"If liberty means anything, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell

#250 tastywheat

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 09:57 AM

Where did I say "caused the situation to unravel"?

 
Oh, so you agree then that Obama stopping a training program for people who use child soldiers had absolutely nothing to do with the 'situation unravelling'?
I do. I merely make the point that it was shitty policy, given he reversed it anyway in 2016.

Do you also agree then that the CPA failed to achieve lasting peace?

#251 Leonid

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 11:58 AM

Where did I say "caused the situation to unravel"?

 
Oh, so you agree then that Obama stopping a training program for people who use child soldiers had absolutely nothing to do with the 'situation unravelling'?
I do. I merely make the point that it was shitty policy, given he reversed it anyway in 2016.
Do you also agree then that the CPA failed to achieve lasting peace?

Nope. I agree that Obama failed to maintain the momentum that Bush had built with the signing of the CPA.
"I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees." - Stephane Charbonnier (1967-2015)

"If liberty means anything, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell

#252 tastywheat

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 01:19 PM

 

Do you also agree then that the CPA failed to achieve lasting peace?


Nope. I agree that Obama failed to maintain the momentum that Bush had built with the signing of the CPA.

 

So the CPA was a success from your perspective?  Even though South Sudan is currently engaged in civil war, there's ongoing genocide and ethnic violence in Darfur, and in places like Abyei (the key protocol Danforth contributed to the CPA), there was violence and genocide going on even while Bush was still in power?

 

2007 - Southern leaders in talks to salvage unity government

2008 - War of words after scores killed in Abyei

2008 - Arab nomads dead in Sudan clashes

2008 - Fresh fighting breaks out in Sudan North-South border region

2008 - Rising tension in Abyei as clashes displace hundreds

2008 - Abyei Aflame: An Update From the Field

2009 - Clashes on Sudan's North-South Border Threaten Peace Deal

2010 - How a Residency Dispute in One Key Town Could Lead Sudan Back to War

2011 - Sudan: Abyei seizure by north 'act of war', says south

 

Seems like a very clear trajectory from temporary peace back to a usual state of conflict from my perspective  If Bush had resolved the conflict in Sudan, there wouldn't be ongoing conflict in Sudan. But there was.  In Abyei.  In Darfur.  In Nasir.  All while Bush was in power.

 

My argument is that Bush didn't resolve the conflict, and while there was certainly a positive influence on the region in the work that went into supporting the CPA, it failed to address the underlying causes - tribal ideologies still embedded in Sudanese society - which meant it would inevitably fail.  

 

Bush certainly didn't resolve civil wars in any other African nations either as you previously suggested.  I don't think these conflicts can be solved with diplomacy, military training programs, or the supply of arms.  Only education and time will resolve them.


Edited by tastywheat, 24 April 2017 - 03:47 PM.


#253 Leonid

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 01:49 PM

I don't remember claiming that Bush finished all problems.

I remember saying "after the Bush Administration's success in stopping the bloodshed there". Which is true. The CPA held for a period of time, nowithstanding some things that were known to not be fixed at the time of signing.
"I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees." - Stephane Charbonnier (1967-2015)

"If liberty means anything, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell




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