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iNeed to upgrade - which Intel socket 2066 motherboard?


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#1 g__day

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 09:25 PM

Upgrading soo - which motherboard would folks suggest and why? Such variety and price ranges!  e.g. https://www.scorptec...tel-Socket-2066


Edited by g__day, 09 November 2017 - 03:50 PM.

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#2 SceptreCore

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 09:35 PM

Upgrading soo - which motherboard would folks suhhest and why? Such variety and price ranges!  e.g. https://www.scorptec...tel-Socket-2066

First question is the most important.

 

What is your budget?


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#3 g__day

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 01:19 PM

Total box build including Win 10 Pro - a bit shy of $6,000 (excluding monitors, keyboard, headphones, mice, UPS etc).  I am leaning towards the Gigabtye X299 AORUS Gaming 7 motherboard at present!


Edited by g__day, 08 November 2017 - 02:59 PM.

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#4 Jeruselem

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 03:52 PM

Just curious, what CPU are you getting? 8700K?


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#5 SceptreCore

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 04:26 PM

Total box build including Win 10 Pro - a bit shy of $6,000 (excluding monitors, keyboard, headphones, mice, UPS etc).  I am leaning towards the Gigabtye X299 AORUS Gaming 7 motherboard at present!

What are you going to be doing with the machine?


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#6 RenascentMisanthropy

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 12:19 PM

A mini-ITX one


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#7 g__day

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 02:30 PM

It has to serve three functions 1) Work - mainly developing complex Powerpoint, excel, word document - pretty simple 2) Occassionally games and 3) occassional processing astro photographs - which could involve adding and mixing several hundred black and white - large RAW files, aligning them, adding colour channels, non linear illumination editing which means a lot of compute and a lot of I/O.

 

Build I am currently favouring consists of:

 

Core I7 7820-X (would have loved the I9 series 12, 14 or 16 core monsters),

Cool Master liquid Pro 280 cooling,

Gigabyte X299 AORUS Gaming 7 M/B,

Gigabyte AORUS GTX 1080 Ti,

Corsair Vengence 3000 MHz RAM 2 x 16GB,

Samsung 960 Pro 512 GB (for O/S and Programs - may later add another 960 Pro for scratch files - but I have several EVO 850 SSD 512 GB I can add in to the intended case),

Seagate 8TB Barracude Pro HDD, with a

Corsair 1000W HX 1000i PSU in a

Corsair Obsidian 750D Black Full tower case - running Windows 10 Pro.

 

A few compromises there - mainly the CPU (affordability) but it should be way more capable than a Quad Core Conroe 2 that has lasted me for many, many years.  But that build should serve me well - I can easily add more storage, double the RAM and add anothe 960 Pro - or build a RAM Disk if I need it.  The only regret-spend might be the CPU - hey a 16 core I9 would be lovely - but the price is in the stratosphere at the moment.


Edited by g__day, 09 November 2017 - 03:52 PM.

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#8 Nich...

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 04:24 PM

Any reasoning on going for an Intel over an AMD? (curious)
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#9 SceptreCore

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 07:17 PM

Let me just answer the OP and say that Something modest like an MSI Gaming Pro Carbon AC or even the ASRock Taichi Motherboard. They aren't real lookers, but they're just as functional. 

 

Now... Let's talk about an alternative. I've built a Threadripper system for under the $6000 budget:

 

PCCG Threadripper 1920X Performance Bundle with MSI X399 SLI PLUS Mobo

Corsair H100i 240mm AIO

Corsair Vengeance RGB CMR32GX4M4C3000C15 32GB (4x8GB) DDR4

MSI GeForce GTX 1080 Ti Gaming X 11GB

Samsung 960 PRO NVMe M.2 512GB SSD x2 in RAID 0

Seagate Ironwolf ST10000VN0004 3.5in 10TB NAS HDD

Corsair HX1200 1200W 80 Plus Platinum Power Supply

Corsair Obsidian 750D Airflow Edition Case with Window

 

$5211 from PCCG

 

Now of course this won't be as fast as Intel CPU's in gaming, but Threadripper will still maintain over 100 fps in most at games 1080p and using a 1080 Ti and have the graphics turned up to their maximum, you're going to have a GPU bottleneck... and they would be about equal. Then... on the workload side of things you're going to see Threadripper smash the 7820X and it will use less power even though it has 4 more cores and 8 more threads. There's even room in the budget for a 1950X, or another M.2 SSD

 

You also won't have to buy an M.2 raid key from Intel as AMD boards support it natively with some configuring. Two of these in RAID will give to wicked speeds for the I/O too.

 

But if you're moving from a conroe, I wonder if perhaps you'd considered saving a fair whack of cash and go a 8 core Ryzen build?

 

Anyway... check out these videos for threadripper and NVMe RAID to see what you think.

 


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#10 Dasa

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 07:27 PM

CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (4 x 8GB) CMK32GX4M4E4133C19R $614 <newegg
Gigabyte nVidia GeForce GTX 1080 Ti Aorus OC 11GB $956
Samsung 960 PRO 512GB M.2 $319.2
HGST Ultrastar He8 HUH728080ALN600 8TB $492 <newegg
Corsair HX Series Modular HX750 750W 80 Plus Platinum $175 <ample power
Fractal Design Define R5 $155 < better airflow & quieter
Noctua NH-D15 $114 <quieter
$2825 most prices using ebay 20% off sale
so that leaves you about 3k for cpu\mb


Edited by Dasa, 09 November 2017 - 07:32 PM.

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#11 g__day

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 10:21 PM

Why Intel over AMD?  Tough question really - as both have a lot to offer - just a feel that Intel are more often then not a bit ahead and push harder to stay that way - for a price premium - even though at the moment I think AMD have the performance for value crown.  I tend to go high-end very periodically then expect the gear to last and last (with the odd upgrades thrown in).  So my bet leaves me positioned for a better performance / value Intel CPU in 2-3 years that can still fit this socket.

 

This is just a gut feel - Intel could change socket design again, release a 24 or 30 core monster only to see AMD release a 64 core beast - one never knows.  I started off Intel 8088, Motorola 68000, back to Intel 286, 386, 486, Pentium, then AMD K6-2, and then Athlon for quite a while until the Conroe 2 came out.  When I upgraded all the Conroe 2 PCs in the house (except for mine) I tended to stick with Intel I5 at around 3.6 GHz.  At this moment in time AMD is really on a solid streak with its latest offering.

 

I was seriously considering the Dual Xeon very high core count Workstation road - but forwards compatibility and service thru an American seller who is up and down when it comes to resolving pre-sales warranty challenges killed that a bit. 

 

Next I watched several videos on youtube with Linus playing with several I7, I9 and threadripper rigs.  At the end of the day I simply didn't put it all out there - I tried to play a bit safe so long as I staed readily upgradeable with my current choices.  It's certainly easy to add more GPU in SLI and very fast storage in this planned rig.  I have always loved the Corsair and Gigabyte gear - so it's easy to follow both head and my heart there.  Also I don't astro image every night lately (actually it's been a long while since I have star gazed at all - I am doing a martial arts instructor course and preparing for my next grading).  So for the next 8 months I guess I might game more often than I stack images; and if image stacking is taking a while - I can also set up the next image acquisition run on my observatory's control PC whilst I am processing images.

 

Great question and comments all BTW guys - many thanks!


Edited by g__day, 09 November 2017 - 10:29 PM.

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#12 SceptreCore

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 12:07 AM

Hmmm... Well we (the community) can spec you an ultimately kick arse PC on a budget or no budget. But really I think we'd rather help you determine what you actually need.

 

I think even a Ryzen system might be the go. The socket will be the same till at least 2020, and should be able to have drop in upgrades, and future motherboards will simply bring more features.


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#13 g__day

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 09:42 AM

Trouble with that offer of advice is there is very little understanding of the astronomy workflow and which hardware optimises its processing requirements.  PixelInsight (which I don't use) gives some benchmark capabilites, but I use DeepSkyStacker or CCDStack.  The authors of both have said it is multi core enabled (but no GPU smarts) and very little else to go by.

 

I have searched the Australian and US astronomy websites of over 30,000 dedicated amateur astronomers and spoken to the makers of many of the Astronomy software tools - and there isn't clear consensus!  When you say the community can help me - remember clearly - I helped start this community and am one of a small set of it's initial go-to folk for all matters technical.  But my knowledge doesn't give me insight as to say whether a very heavily raided PCIE storage device at any cost for scratch files would be better than one or more large RAMDrives.  The workflow tools within PixelInsight show you actually do best from having four decent sized RAMDrives than any other configuration - with a lot of debate even from its authors on why!

 

My needs are closer aligned to Workstation for a sub-class of 3D rendering needs - with the extra constraint that the GPU isn't heavily used yet by the makers of small, but very expensive Astrophotography programs - CCDWare family, DSS.  Whilst PixelInsight has started to use it, Registar and many other haven't yet.  All the Astronomy data acquisition s/w tools - The SkyX, PEMPro, ZWO Camera control suites, PHD autoguiding, auto focusing and V-spline, Plate solving, Dome management etc are well set up and working fine.  There challenges aren't data prcessing merely faultless data acquisition.  It's the occassional data crunching load that is the X-factor for most astronomers.

 

It's trivially simple to set up a big rig for gaming.  Game development has really simple and very well known hardware needs.  The interaction of CPU, GPU and memory latency in Directx11 or 12 or OpenGL games are thoroughly understood and catered for.  Astronomers needs far less well so.  The arrival of very fast, relatively inexpensive CMOS cameras that have shallow light wells (20,000e - 40,000e) but extremely low readout noise are game changers!  It used to be you needed $4K - $16K CCDs that were very noisey and very deep electron well for each pixel - and so had to be very, very deep cooled to reduce dark currents; they had fat pixels with really deep well to shoot hard targets with a decent signal to noise ratio.  They had poor frame buffers and slow USB 1.1 or 2 readouts so amp glow was a factor.  Nowadays sub $2K CMOS from say ZWO with USB3 can bring shooting light frames of your target down from requiring 20 x 30 minute shots to 300 x 2 minute shots.  The signal to noise goes through the roof in that situation - thanks to the mathematics of noise sampling.  But the need is to combine that data for each of Red, Green, Blue, Luminance and Hydrogen Alpha, Oxygen II and Sulphur II filter channels.  So you may have 300 x 10 MB RAW images to combine for each of seven colour channels, for each target, for each run duration (30 seconds, 2 minutes, 4 minutes etc) before you start the channel combine and deep processing is Photoshop CS or MaximDL or both!

 

So I have opted for an all round rig that should do everything credibly, but allow for movement once the software or hardware available adapts.  Need more CPU then I would go to a I9 7940 - 14 core beast.  Would it beat the Threadripper 1950 for my workload - I certainly expect so given the price differential.  Would it beat a dual CPU 60 core Xeon Workstation from 2012 - possibly it would get its bottom paddled!

 

I may find that no sane amount of compute will bring my needs down to real time processing of a few minutes per imaging target.  Fine you just batch them all and queue them to run before you go to bed and look at the results in the morning.  If they take 4, 8, 12 or 16 hours to complete - so be it!  So far I have only tried runs of about 30 light frames (the actual picture of your target) plus matching master dark frames, flat frames, BIAS and flat dark frames.  Once the light frames grow into the hundreds I don't know how the various software sets will scale.  All this has to be temperature calibrated too (lights, darks and flats) - but Ihope to avoid this by having everything calibrated Summer through WInter to -25 to -30 C.

 

So with this deeper insights to my needs can you really offer far better advice than given to me over the past six months?


Edited by g__day, 10 November 2017 - 09:58 AM.

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#14 Dasa

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 10:48 AM

Need more CPU then I would go to a I9 7940 - 14 core beast.  Would it beat the Threadripper 1950 for my workload - I certainly expect so given the price differential.

probably not

even the 16 core 7960x is a little slower at rendering a video than 1950x

however in programs that dont make full use of the extra cores\threads intel does perform ~10-20% quicker than amd threadripper and also overclocks a little further than amd

 

it takes a 18 core 7980xe $2860 to get in front of 1950x $1340 in all tests

 

7980xe $2860

Gigabyte X299 Aorus Gaming 3 $364

brings you to $6039 total

 

vs

 

AMD Ryzen Threadripper 1950X $1340

Asus Prime X399-A $479

$4624 total

it will take ~20% longer at stock clocks to finish a render or ~30% with both overclcoked while the intel build costs ~30% more


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#15 SceptreCore

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 05:37 PM

Threadripper uses less power and runs cooler too I might add.

 

Plus I like the idea of NVMe RAID, that is full on I/O speed there. The only bottleneck would be transferring images to the Hard Disk.


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#16 SceptreCore

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 05:55 PM

Trouble with that offer of advice is there is very little understanding of the astronomy workflow and which hardware optimises its processing requirements.  PixelInsight (which I don't use) gives some benchmark capabilites, but I use DeepSkyStacker or CCDStack.  The authors of both have said it is multi core enabled (but no GPU smarts) and very little else to go by.

 

I have searched the Australian and US astronomy websites of over 30,000 dedicated amateur astronomers and spoken to the makers of many of the Astronomy software tools - and there isn't clear consensus!  When you say the community can help me - remember clearly - I helped start this community and am one of a small set of it's initial go-to folk for all matters technical.  But my knowledge doesn't give me insight as to say whether a very heavily raided PCIE storage device at any cost for scratch files would be better than one or more large RAMDrives.  The workflow tools within PixelInsight show you actually do best from having four decent sized RAMDrives than any other configuration - with a lot of debate even from its authors on why!

 

My needs are closer aligned to Workstation for a sub-class of 3D rendering needs - with the extra constraint that the GPU isn't heavily used yet by the makers of small, but very expensive Astrophotography programs - CCDWare family, DSS.  Whilst PixelInsight has started to use it, Registar and many other haven't yet.  All the Astronomy data acquisition s/w tools - The SkyX, PEMPro, ZWO Camera control suites, PHD autoguiding, auto focusing and V-spline, Plate solving, Dome management etc are well set up and working fine.  There challenges aren't data prcessing merely faultless data acquisition.  It's the occassional data crunching load that is the X-factor for most astronomers.

 

It's trivially simple to set up a big rig for gaming.  Game development has really simple and very well known hardware needs.  The interaction of CPU, GPU and memory latency in Directx11 or 12 or OpenGL games are thoroughly understood and catered for.  Astronomers needs far less well so.  The arrival of very fast, relatively inexpensive CMOS cameras that have shallow light wells (20,000e - 40,000e) but extremely low readout noise are game changers!  It used to be you needed $4K - $16K CCDs that were very noisey and very deep electron well for each pixel - and so had to be very, very deep cooled to reduce dark currents; they had fat pixels with really deep well to shoot hard targets with a decent signal to noise ratio.  They had poor frame buffers and slow USB 1.1 or 2 readouts so amp glow was a factor.  Nowadays sub $2K CMOS from say ZWO with USB3 can bring shooting light frames of your target down from requiring 20 x 30 minute shots to 300 x 2 minute shots.  The signal to noise goes through the roof in that situation - thanks to the mathematics of noise sampling.  But the need is to combine that data for each of Red, Green, Blue, Luminance and Hydrogen Alpha, Oxygen II and Sulphur II filter channels.  So you may have 300 x 10 MB RAW images to combine for each of seven colour channels, for each target, for each run duration (30 seconds, 2 minutes, 4 minutes etc) before you start the channel combine and deep processing is Photoshop CS or MaximDL or both!

 

So I have opted for an all round rig that should do everything credibly, but allow for movement once the software or hardware available adapts.  Need more CPU then I would go to a I9 7940 - 14 core beast.  Would it beat the Threadripper 1950 for my workload - I certainly expect so given the price differential.  Would it beat a dual CPU 60 core Xeon Workstation from 2012 - possibly it would get its bottom paddled!

 

I may find that no sane amount of compute will bring my needs down to real time processing of a few minutes per imaging target.  Fine you just batch them all and queue them to run before you go to bed and look at the results in the morning.  If they take 4, 8, 12 or 16 hours to complete - so be it!  So far I have only tried runs of about 30 light frames (the actual picture of your target) plus matching master dark frames, flat frames, BIAS and flat dark frames.  Once the light frames grow into the hundreds I don't know how the various software sets will scale.  All this has to be temperature calibrated too (lights, darks and flats) - but Ihope to avoid this by having everything calibrated Summer through WInter to -25 to -30 C.

 

So with this deeper insights to my needs can you really offer far better advice than given to me over the past six months?

I meant no disrespect mate, I'm looking at it from a bird's eye kind of perspective. When you said it's "gotta be better than your old Core 2 Quad", I am just trying to get myself up to your speed. Then you went and said a whole bunch of words to put me in my place.. and indeed it did.

 

From my view I just want to make sure that you want to invest so much dosh for something that you've been getting by with on old beater. But i suppose you've already calculated the cost.

 

As regards where these products are priced... AMD has come in to seriously undercut Intel. They priced their 16 core at the same cost as Intel's 10 core, and it dominates it just about every measure, trading blows with AMD's 12 core offering and not being successful there either. More than likely AMD will support their socket longer than Intel does, because that's what they usually do. From all the tech reviewers I've watched, they all say that Threadripper is the most compelling offering, and a couple of them built Threadripper systems for their own professional work. So with that information, it's really up to you... you will be happy with both I feel, but one will definitely leave you with more in your pocket.


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#17 g__day

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 08:19 PM

Actually no forgive any of my bad manners or frustration as I can see you were really trying to help and you are dead right AMD is great value for money right now - and despite all my research there are a lot of unknowns in my proposed workflow.

 

I am hedging towards Intel doing very big comeback to AMD's bold foray in the next year - which is total speculation on my part.  I am really stunned that no one in the world seems to know with a large budget how to best allocate spend for my purpose.  There are literally tens of thousand of amateur astronomers who regularly image, let alone the image processimg software developers and no one can give me a definite answer on where to best spend my cash.  For a pretty shrewd group that is an amazing position to be in.

 

Had I unlimted funds I would probably simply splurg on a top core count I9 - but funds limited your advice is right in the money.  I am in neither position so trying to hedge - an you could be dead right my money in the short term might be way better spend on the more parallel Threadripper!


Edited by g__day, 10 November 2017 - 08:20 PM.

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#18 SceptreCore

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 11:24 PM

Actually no forgive any of my bad manners or frustration as I can see you were really trying to help and you are dead right AMD is great value for money right now - and despite all my research there are a lot of unknowns in my proposed workflow.

 

I am hedging towards Intel doing very big comeback to AMD's bold foray in the next year - which is total speculation on my part.  I am really stunned that no one in the world seems to know with a large budget how to best allocate spend for my purpose.  There are literally tens of thousand of amateur astronomers who regularly image, let alone the image processimg software developers and no one can give me a definite answer on where to best spend my cash.  For a pretty shrewd group that is an amazing position to be in.

 

Had I unlimted funds I would probably simply splurg on a top core count I9 - but funds limited your advice is right in the money.  I am in neither position so trying to hedge - an you could be dead right my money in the short term might be way better spend on the more parallel Threadripper!

Can they be rendered using GPU performance? nVidia is the undisputed king there... then it doesn't matter what the rest of the system is.


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#19 Dasa

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 06:55 AM

The authors of both have said it is multi core enabled (but no GPU smarts) and very little else to go by.

 

Ran some tests on this software a while back

http://forums.atomic...ay-games/page-2

 

seems the consensus was memory bandwidth was very important even though i couldn't get the second software to work properly

although it seems i never actually tested it with my ram at stock vs overclocked so i may have to revisit that to make sure

 

had a quick play with deepskytracker again this morning but have to go for now

last time i couldn't get it to put load on multiple cores however this time it has but only when stacking which it completes very quickly with the slowest part being registering the images which is still single threaded and not as aio heavy as the other benchmark

but im still doing something wrong as the image its outputting is covered in a pink hue almost hiding all the stars

this is using 11 raw 30mb files from here https://photographin...oad-stack-data/

 

i will try download this 3g file tonight and see how it goes as it could perform very differently to just using a few light files

36 Lights
15 Darks
24 Flats
25 Dark Flats

http://www.rawastrod...clusters&id=m45


Edited by Dasa, 11 November 2017 - 08:48 AM.

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#20 SceptreCore

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 01:25 PM

 

The authors of both have said it is multi core enabled (but no GPU smarts) and very little else to go by.

 

Ran some tests on this software a while back

http://forums.atomic...ay-games/page-2

 

seems the consensus was memory bandwidth was very important even though i couldn't get the second software to work properly

although it seems i never actually tested it with my ram at stock vs overclocked so i may have to revisit that to make sure

 

had a quick play with deepskytracker again this morning but have to go for now

last time i couldn't get it to put load on multiple cores however this time it has but only when stacking which it completes very quickly with the slowest part being registering the images which is still single threaded and not as aio heavy as the other benchmark

but im still doing something wrong as the image its outputting is covered in a pink hue almost hiding all the stars

this is using 11 raw 30mb files from here https://photographin...oad-stack-data/

 

i will try download this 3g file tonight and see how it goes as it could perform very differently to just using a few light files

36 Lights
15 Darks
24 Flats
25 Dark Flats

http://www.rawastrod...clusters&id=m45

 

Ahh yes... I missed that bit of info.

 

Well... I would say Threadripper looks perfect for this build, it's going to be the best allrounder. Games will play fine, mostly over 100fps, but delivering amazing productivity workload numbers. Plus... you get to open up task manager and get to see 24 or 32 logical cores... depending on what you go with.

 

https://youtu.be/3U1RHSP6jzQ?t=18m30s


RIG: Phenom II X6 1090T @ 3.6GHz | MSI 990FXA GD-80 | 8GB Corsair Vengeance @ 1600MHz 9-9-9-24 | Radeon HD6450 | Patriot Pyro SSD 120GB SATAIII | 500GB + 1TB Barracuda's | LG GH22NS70 DVD-RW | Xigmatek Red Scorpion | Corsair HX650W | CM690





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