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Perth drivers - again....


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#41 Master_Scythe

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 03:07 PM

 

They're not saying she's a better driver. They're saying that using the risk estimation techniques, mathematical models, and their business profile, they expect the female driver to be less costly to insure.

Even once that is PROVEN to be incorrect (in that persons case)

 

It hasn't proven to be incorrect. They've used historical details with their risk estimation techniques, mathematical models, and their business profile, to determine that they expect the female driver to be less costly to insure.

 

 

So using historical details,

Driver A has written off 2 vehicles of her own (I have no data on other victims), and been deemed by law enforcement to be too dangerous to drive at some point.

Drive B has been driving for an equal amount of time, however has 0 accidents, and a 0 penalty license.

 

To me, it looks the the only historical detail they've used to establish is "Born with Penis: Y\N" because in this example, at least, I don't see how you can deny that Driver A has proven the more risky customer.

 

 

 

You really need to stop referencing track time, and corners, and butterflying brakes etc. All of that is irrelevant to emergency stopping to reduce crashes.

 

No, because these are all very real factors to a persons driving skill. People who haven't had at least 1 track day often don't know how their car will behave in emergency STEERING situations.

Even my mum came out and did one so she knew.

Look, even if I give you the benefit of track day-goers being a 'rare demographic' of people

 

 

You can't lump butterflying brakes into that same scenario.

This is something you're taught by your driving instructor, and can't pass a defensive driving course without.

Defensive driving courses are (almost) mandatory in highschool (parents can opt a kid out, not many do).

It's something you use EVERY time you need to emergency brake. Jump hard, butterfly off so you don't lock them up.

It's a basic and expected driving skill;

even the examiner asks for a verbal explanation, 'What do you do if your brakes lock up?' when you get your license.


:)

I'm pretty certain the brakes on my Pug 307 are unmodified although I did not buy it new but the first time I needed to brake for an amber it literally scared me - awesome stopping power.

Others who have driven her have said the same thing.

I've never modified brakes, just change the pads as needed, not much else in a car I haven't "improved" however :)

Cheers

 

207 GTI's have nice size brakes for their body, they pull up nicely.

 

Mums 307 and 308 (vintage about 2009) are terrifying.

Had an accident happen in front of us at 80kmph, at a guess I'd say we did have about the recommended 2 seconds following distance, and it only JUUUST pulled up.


Edited by Master_Scythe, 08 January 2018 - 03:04 PM.

Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#42 Rybags

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 03:12 PM

This guy has obviously never driven down a mountain before.

 

At least he's got his choice of username pretty spot on.



#43 Master_Scythe

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 03:15 PM

This guy has obviously never driven down a mountain before.

 

At least he's got his choice of username pretty spot on.

 

I mean, we're not arguing about whether or not it will stop the tyres from rotating, small brakes will do that fine.

It's just whether or not the human has to deal with 5% pedal travel before lockup, or 50%.

Shit brakes will only give you the last 5% before you're sliding. Big brakes will make friction early and have a better master:caliper ratio because of it.

 

And some how knowing how to unlock a brake skid isn't relevant to emergency braking?


Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#44 Rybags

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 03:16 PM

By his logic we should have a new ADR...

 

All new vehicles to be fitted with single trailing shoe drum brakes on all 4 wheels.



#45 ResidentNeville

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 03:47 PM

To me, it looks the the only historical detail they've used to establish is "Born with Penis: Y\N" because in this example, at least, I don't see how you can deny that Driver A has proven the more risky customer.

If you can't see that then you haven't really been paying attention to me, nor the others that have tried to explain this to you. I recommend you open up your own insurance company, since clearly you are far better at choosing business than they are.

 

(Nah, I'm just joking, there's way too many hoops to jump through to start an insurance company. I'd actually recommend providing consulting and taking a cut of the profits, you'll end up a millionaire.)

 

 

 

You really need to stop referencing track time, and corners, and butterflying brakes etc. All of that is irrelevant to emergency stopping to reduce crashes.

 

No, because these are all very real factors to a persons driving skill.

You are seemingly unable to follow a basic stream of logic here.

 

You said: Better brakes reduce crashes.

I said: No they don't.

You said: But better brakes are better on the track, and corners, and easier to butterfly.

I said: That's irrelevant to reducing crashes [implied that it's in the context of better brakes].

You said: But a driver is a better driver if they are better on the track, corners, and know how to butterfly.

 

Yes, I totally agree with your last point, that is clearly a more skilled driver, but that has nothing to do with better brakes reducing crashes. That has to do with better drivers reducing crashes.

 

 

You can't lump butterflying brakes into that same scenario.

This is something you're taught by your driving instructor, and can't pass a defensive driving course without.

Defensive driving courses are (almost) mandatory in highschool (parents can opt a kid out, not many do).

It's something you use EVERY time you need to emergency brake. Jump hard, butterfly off so you don't lock them up.

It's a basic and expected driving skill;

even the examiner asks for a verbal explanation, 'What do you do if your brakes lock up?' when you get your license.

It might be time for you to do another defensive driving course. Today's recommendation for emergency stopping in cars with ABS is essentially "maximum brake and nothing else".

 

 

This guy has obviously never driven down a mountain before.

 

At least he's got his choice of username pretty spot on.

I've driven down many mountains. The only time I've felt an affect on the brakes was when I was partaking in, lets say, spirited driving. And even then I'm pretty sure that the brakes would still lock.

 

I'm surprised that everyone has so staunchly stood by the fact that better brakes reduce crashes under regular driving conditions (assuming they can lock up the wheels and the car has ABS). I've given the logic and the physics behind it, and dealt with every objection to the logic and physics so far (shout out to the claim that reducing the force required has a material impact).

 

I think we've just ended up "herp derp better brakes stop you quicker" which is true as a generalisation, but not true for emergency braking and therefore its rather difficult to claim that it reduces crashes.



#46 merlin13

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 03:56 PM

Ummmm, 'Scythe - think you've missed a few points so far, and you really need to draw clear differentiations 'tween normal everyday road users/hoons/track boys et al.

Because scrolling through all this again to try and pick up the ghist of your later posts it's getting rather scrambled with this bouncing 'tween comments/opinions 'n observations on vastly different real-world scenarios.

 

eg why would you be highlighting probable results of unmodified braking setups at the end of the straight on a track? Of course standard brakes/tyres/suspension etc will give you grief if you push them well beyond normal driving conditions - what's your actual point there? Make yer mind up, willya?

 

And just because someone hasn't had or reported having a prang in x-decades of driving does not mean they're inherently a better driver and deserve cheaper insurance risk/deserve cheaper premiums. 

Apart from your noted aged nitwits on the phone, for all your weekly driving how many clowns do you observe on a daily basis that demonstrate they really need serious slapping around the head 'n shoulders? You going to tell us for all the mileage you clock up (even here in BrizVegas) that you don't encounter a good percentage of mobile dickheads right across the age spectrum, on both two and four wheels?


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#47 Rybags

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 03:57 PM

Better brakes can reduce crashes.  If no other variables are changed then it's almost a certainty.

 

But it comes down to how and if they're used.  A seatbelt is next to useless if not used or not used properly.

The shaky ground you stand on is representing that better brakes make no difference and only belong in track situations which is utter bullshit.



#48 ResidentNeville

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 04:04 PM



Better brakes can reduce crashes.  If no other variables are changed then it's almost a certainty.

Well, better brakes certainly don't increase crashes. And for some driving behaviour can reduce crashes. But regular driving behaviour it has almost no impact on crashes because stopping distance remain the same. That's why insurance premiums don't get reduced.

 

As I said on my very first post of the topic...

 

In general, "improved" brakes do not reduce crashes. If a car is able to lock up the brakes, like all modern cars do, then improving the brakes isn't going to make the car stop significantly quicker in an emergency situation. If you're wanting to reduce crashes then you're likely better off focusing on the tyres and how good the ABS/etc. system is.

 

A further problem that I've since discovered is that some people think that improved brakes reduces emergency braking distance, which probably increases crashes and leads to increased premiums.



#49 Master_Scythe

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 04:20 PM

 

 

 

You can't lump butterflying brakes into that same scenario.

This is something you're taught by your driving instructor, and can't pass a defensive driving course without.

Defensive driving courses are (almost) mandatory in highschool (parents can opt a kid out, not many do).

It's something you use EVERY time you need to emergency brake. Jump hard, butterfly off so you don't lock them up.

It's a basic and expected driving skill;

even the examiner asks for a verbal explanation, 'What do you do if your brakes lock up?' when you get your license.

It might be time for you to do another defensive driving course. Today's recommendation for emergency stopping in cars with ABS is essentially "maximum brake and nothing else".

 

 

 

No one here has mentioned ABS except you.

It's illegal to fit or tamper with ABS systems, so they're largely irrelevant.

Unless your car came with them, AND they're modern enough to somehow be better than a practiced human; its a moot point.

 

And when you do a defensive driving course, they disable the ABS! It's for you learn how to brake in a situation where ABS will kill you (such as 3 wheels on gravel, 1 on paved road).

ABS has a horrible time with diagonal slides.

If you're lucky enough to be a rich prick and have "Stability Control" then, you're in luck, but good ol ABS alone kills you in diagonals.

 

Can you link this literature please? My last course was 2 years ago, so I'm sure i'm out of date.

But if there's something new, I'll book another.


Edited by Master_Scythe, 08 January 2018 - 04:21 PM.

Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#50 Rybags

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 04:24 PM

"Maximum brake and nothing else"

 

So, just hit the anchors and don't bother trying to steer around that cow that wandered onto the road?



#51 ResidentNeville

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 04:28 PM



No one here has mentioned ABS except you.

 

Yes. My claim that... in general, "improved" brakes do not reduce crashes. If a car is able to lock up the brakes, like all modern cars do, then improving the brakes isn't going to make the car stop significantly quicker in an emergency situation... applies only to cars with ABS. As I have said many times. If your car doesn't have ABS then better brakes will improve your emergency stopping performance.

 

And when you do a defensive driving course, they disable the ABS! 

Its definitely time for you to do another defensive driving course. Are you sure you didn't do some type of track day / performance driving course?

 

It's for you learn how to brake in a situation where ABS will kill you (such as 3 wheels on gravel, 1 on paved road).

Haha, that's a useful skill to learn. "Oh no, I'm about to get in an accident, but 3 of my wheels are on gravel and 1 is on paved road, let me turn off the ABS and then emergency brake!"

 



"Maximum brake and nothing else"

 

So, just hit the anchors and don't bother trying to steer around that cow that wandered onto the road?

My bad. I meant "nothing else" with regards to braking. Just maximum force on the brake pedal. I don't recall any of them having a problem with also steering at the same time :P


Edited by ResidentNeville, 08 January 2018 - 04:31 PM.


#52 Master_Scythe

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 04:48 PM


eg why would you be highlighting probable results of unmodified braking setups at the end of the straight on a track? Of course standard brakes/tyres/suspension etc will give you grief if you push them well beyond normal driving conditions - what's your actual point there? Make yer mind up, willya?

 

Well, the "modified brake" thing isn't going to come up in 'Mum and Pop' scenarios, so the only people to take into account here are people who like cars.

The reason I mention the end of a straight on a track, is because that's where it's relevant. A place where insurance ALREADY doesn't cover. So why should better brakes be a negative to your insurance?

 

My followup point was that, on a track, "Diving a corner" is almost identical to an emergency brake. Often a little steering to avoid the obstacle a bit, braking as hard as you can, avoiding a lockup.

 

Knowing how to power out, take an apex or, I don't know....oversteer? are all 'track only' things, but a normal corner dive is something that a sudden crash in front of you forces you to either know how to do, or pray!

 

 

And just because someone hasn't had or reported having a prang in x-decades of driving does not mean they're inherently a better driver and deserve cheaper insurance risk/deserve cheaper premiums. 

Apart from your noted aged nitwits on the phone, for all your weekly driving how many clowns do you observe on a daily basis that demonstrate they really need serious slapping around the head 'n shoulders? You going to tell us for all the mileage you clock up (even here in BrizVegas) that you don't encounter a good percentage of mobile dickheads right across the age spectrum, on both two and four wheels?

 

Oh, of course not.

Every demographic is well and truly represented by a dickhead group, no argument.

 

But as a dashcam junkie (both my own, friends, and youtube), and as someone who has to observe peoples personal habits, or die (when on the bike) I maintain that the older is more unpredictable.

 

Maybe the younger have more serious accidents when they do?

I don't know, I've only been on site for a single youth accident (a few dead unfortunately) but that was a car-on-pole scenario.

 

But if I had to take the little things, like not indicating, not shoulder checking, slowing below the limit to merge, forgetting their indicator is on, braking unpredictably, or two-foot driving so you can't tell when they ARE braking, the award goes wholeheartedly to my parents generation.

I'd say probably 5:1 of "did that guy even LOOK?" goes to old:young.

 

it seems my opinion isn't shared, but hey, different life experience leads to different opinions.


 


And when you do a defensive driving course, they disable the ABS! 

Its definitely time for you to do another defensive driving course. Are you sure you didn't do some type of track day / performance driving course?

 

Yep. Certain.

Mt Cotton Driver Training School; I've done nearly everything they offer (and DD more than once).

There is a "Skid Control" day, but that was YEARS ago, like, 5+ years that was done.

 

I remember the ABS so specifically, because I asked why the light was on, and to paraphrase as best I can;

"No point learning anything if you just magically expect the car to do it, what if your ABS fails?"

I'm going to take the professionals logic and advice, as well as my own personal experience, to be blunt.

 

 

3:30 you can see emergency braking and avoidance training.

I can assure you that Honda Accord has pretty advanced ABS, notice its off?

The one i've done is more recent than that.

 

What center leaves it on? I'll give them a call and ask why.

 

 

 

Haha, that's a useful skill to learn. "Oh no, I'm about to get in an accident, but 3 of my wheels are on gravel and 1 is on paved road, let me turn off the ABS and then emergency brake!"

 

and no, thats daft.

Anyone who's read their owners manual will hopefully be intelligent enough to know that the reason cars come with an ABS\STAB on\off button, is because its meant to ALREADY be off on unpaved, or mixed condition roads.

 

So will have turned it off at the start of their trip.

No accounting for ignorance. Let natural selection handle that.


 



Better brakes can reduce crashes.  If no other variables are changed then it's almost a certainty.

Well, better brakes certainly don't increase crashes.

 

So then why ask you to pay more if you have them?

 

That's the whole point of this discussion.


Edited by Master_Scythe, 08 January 2018 - 04:46 PM.

Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#53 ResidentNeville

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 04:53 PM

I remember the ABS so specifically, because I asked why the light was on, and to paraphrase as best I can;

"No point learning anything if you just magically expect the car to do it, what if your ABS fails?"

I'm going to take the professionals logic and advice, as well as my own personal experience, to be blunt.

Well that's hugely concerning. I just gave them a call to confirm, but it seems like they were out of office.

 

 

Anyone who's read their owners manual will hopefully be intelligent enough to know that the reason cars come with an ABS\STAB on\off button, is because its meant to ALREADY be off on unpaved, or mixed condition roads.

Well, congratulations, it took a few dozen posts, but you finally came up with a decent argument. I wasn't considering unpaved roads in my "regular driving conditions". If you want to consider unpaved roads to be "regular driving conditions" then please mentally replace all prior instances of "regular driving conditions" with "regular driving conditions (on paved roads)".

 

Of course, unpaved roads are regular for some people, and in that case they should turn off ABS (if they can) and when ABS is off then bigger brakes can help. But then, to circle back around to the original question of "why do insurance premiums increase when I upgrade the brakes?"...

 

It probably comes to something roughly like: They've chosen to upgrade the brakes, which only improved emergency braking performance if they're on unpaved roads with ABS turned off. If they've gone to the effort of upgrading the brakes they're probably on unpaved roads a lot. Driving on unpaved roads is risker than paved roads, do the upgraded brakes outweigh this risk?



#54 Master_Scythe

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 04:59 PM

It probably comes to something roughly like: They've chosen to upgrade the brakes, which only improved emergency braking performance if they're on unpaved roads with ABS turned off. If they've gone to the effort of upgrading the brakes they're probably on unpaved roads a lot. Driving on unpaved roads is risker than paved roads, do the upgraded brakes outweigh this risk?

 

 

But if you DONT upgrade them, and drive on unpaved roads, then you're still OK to have it cheap.

Logical to me </sarcasm>.

 

See, I'm in Brisbane.

I only need to drive 20km out of time to find unpaved but commonly used roads.

Samford is largely unpaved around the mountains.

Parts of Tambourine is wooden bridges (even worse again, nothing is slipperier).

Beaudesert has a lot of unpaved.

Jimboomba isn't much better.

Hell, there's even a couple of unpaved backroads in Redland Shire.


Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#55 ResidentNeville

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 05:08 PM

But if you DONT upgrade them, and drive on unpaved roads, then you're still OK to have it cheap.

Logical to me </sarcasm>.

You raise an interesting point, and we start to circle back to the fundamentals of insurance. The two relevant facts of insurance are a) they can't know everything about you, b) they [effectively] operate on averages.

 

They have no real way of knowing (until we get in-car sensors) how much you drive on paved/unpaved roads. They can use other factors to estimate this, like no Ferrari has ever been offroad, and Patrol's probably spend more times off road, but there's a huge class of people that insurers have no idea about and what ends up effectively happening is that the same average gets used for everyone.

 

We've covered that upgrading your brakes doesn't really do much to reduce crashes on paved roads, so telling your insurer that you've got upgraded brakes basically tells them "hey, i spend more time on unpaved roads, charge me more!" If it doesn't tell them that in particular, it can tell them a number of other worrying things, like "i enjoy spirited driving!" or perhaps even "i overestimate the emergency braking performance of my car on unpaved roads."



#56 chrisg

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 05:12 PM

:)

I suppose I should take offense, Being I'm over 65 and I do agree some drivers of my generation are awful but MS, I was an instructor for many years and taught a lot of DD courses, some you can teach, some are so aarrogant you just give up...

There is no common ground, a lot of my younger friends are very good drivers and some of my older friends are life-long hoons, I avoid being driven by the latter.

But it's a zoo out there and if I could avoid being on the roads these days I would, sadly not an option...

Cheers
"Specialisation is for Insects" RAH

#57 Master_Scythe

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 05:23 PM

I guess at the end, ResidentNeville, you just need to write to all the car manufacturers and let them know they're wasting their money.

 

200mm single pot brakes will easily lock up any car-size wheel, so all these 4 pot's on subarus, or even 2 pots on Toyota, or, say, the something common like the 4pots on Aurions with 280mm brakes; they're all wasting their money.

Let them know their engineers are stupid, and they should fit the minimum size rotor that can lock up the wheel.

 

Yes I know that smacks of sarcasm, but if you take all opinion out of it, ask yourself;

"Why do car manufacturers fit bigger brakes?" Manufacturing cost is important to them. Gotta be SOMETHING to it.



You raise an interesting point, and we start to circle back to the fundamentals of insurance. The two relevant facts of insurance are a) they can't know everything about you, b) they [effectively] operate on averages.

 

 

 

Which is what I feel is wrong.

 

For A. They just need to take the time to ask.

and for B. I'm not a fan of that, and I disagree with it, which is why im with Shannons, and NRMA who don't do that (or at least, not nearly as much).


Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#58 ResidentNeville

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 05:25 PM

"Why do car manufacturers fit bigger brakes?" Manufacturing cost is important to them. Gotta be SOMETHING to it.

Just because bigger brakes don't improve emergency braking performance in regular driving conditions (and therefore doesn't reduce premiums) doesn't mean there aren't other advantages. Did I really have to explain that to you? You were the one that listed out various advantages in your prior posts (albeit irrelevant to emergency braking performance in regular driving conditions).



#59 ResidentNeville

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 05:42 PM

Which is what I feel is wrong.

 

For A. They just need to take the time to ask.

and for B. I'm not a fan of that, and I disagree with it, which is why im with Shannons, and NRMA who don't do that (or at least, not nearly as much).

There are practical limits to the information that they can ask. The relevant one here is verifiability. There are various scales for verifiability, but for example:

 

1) Very verifiable: Your age, gender, car make and model.

2) Mostly verifiable: Whether your car has mods or not.

3) Not really verifiable: How much you drive on unpaved roads.

 

Yes it would be nice if you could tell your insurer how much you drove on unpaved roads, and they took your word for it and adjusted your premiums accordingly, but the business will fail quickly.

 

Shannons and NRMA don't average on factors that you don't want to be averaged on, which is good. But in part that might be corporate attempting to do market segmentation. Shannons is Suncorp (i.e. GIO, AAMI, APIA, JustCar, Bingle) and NRMA is IAG (CGU, SGIO, SGIC, State Insurance). 


Edited by ResidentNeville, 08 January 2018 - 05:44 PM.


#60 eveln

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 07:00 PM

:)

I suppose I should take offense, Being I'm over 65 ...

Cheers

Why ? unless it's you being a a blind-tail-gating-no indicating-little shit who believes it's your right to change lanes on a round-about on the whim of desire, then I wouldn't waste the emotion ;) ... up here, "P" platers are the worst for this feeling of righteousness.

And they would mostly be " millennials " brought up believing every body loves them as much as their indulging parents do ... or did .


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