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Poverty PC 'upgrade'


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#1 mykl_c

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:09 PM

My well designed but aging system is reducing my ability to play newer game titles. It's based on an MSI B85-G43 (MS-7816) mobo (LGA1150).There is no way I can approach anything like a current build, so I'm thinking of the following replacements. Am I missing a trick anywhere? Please remember funds are VERY limited.

CURRENT

IMAGINED

 

G Skill Value F3-10666CL9-8GBNT 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3

Corsair Vengeance CMZ16GX3M2A1600C9 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3  - $199

Gigabyte Radeon HD 7770 1GB

Inno3D GeForce GTX 1060 X2 6GB - $459

Intel Core i5-4430, 3200 MHz

Can't find current suppliers for LGA 1150 Socket CPU, eBay is about $250 for
Intel Core i7-4970K - ~$250


ISAIAH 58:8 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—when you see the naked, to clothe him,and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?"

#2 Rybags

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:52 PM

If budget is a consideration maybe just add to current Ram instead of replacing it.  e.g. 1066 vs 1600 Mhz Ram won't suffer an enormous amount. 

The graphics card there very much the weak link in the system.  So yep, something along the lines of 970, 1060 should be a decent improvement without breaking the bank.

 

The CPU - I have doubts you'd find NOS of LGA1150 given that Skylake (1151) came out over 2 years ago now.

The decent K suffixed Haswells still fetch some good bucks though, I've got an i7-4790 (non-K) so no overclocking but still competitive with more recent quads.

 

Plenty of people selling off decent CPUs, Ram and graphcis cards that could be candidates so it is a way to save some bucks.



#3 mykl_c

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 09:24 PM

Thanks Rybags. My thinking re: RAM is the age of the system, and the difficulty finding NOS DDR3-1333 (667 MHz). I thought simpler/safer to just replace it.
The eBay CPU was used but owner had box and original, unused cooler. Did the Buy/Sell page disappear?

[edit] aha! there's trademart!


Edited by mykl_c, 14 February 2018 - 09:26 PM.

ISAIAH 58:8 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—when you see the naked, to clothe him,and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?"

#4 Rybags

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 09:58 PM

DDR3 is fairly plentiful and I think still being made but MSY at least seems to have a lot less variety in stock compared to 6 months ago.

Annoyingly DRam prices seem to have risen a bit lately but DDR3 hasn't suffered as much as DDR4.  For a while they were almost identically priced, maybe DDR3 is just reduced so they don't get caught with unwanted stockpiles.

 

I've just checked mine - 2 x 8 Gig (1600) and 2 x 4 Gig (1866) so it's all running at 1600.  Generally if you mix/match 2 different pairs they should behave OK.  I'd just try to aquire something close or slightly faster than what you already have and just go additional.



#5 Master_Scythe

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:12 AM

----Intel Core i5-4430, 3200 MHz

The CPU is unlikely to be a bottleneck.

Or should I say, unlikely to be a MAJOR bottleneck. You'll gain a few frames, but nothing will jump from unplayable to playable; so I'd let it be.

Even with a locked multiplier, you can often tweak baseclock.

 

Jump in there and set your baseclock to 105mhz; this is a free 5% overclock.

Don't go beyond this, because baseclock also handles your storage and PCI-E lane speeds too, and while up to 108mhz is USUALLY fine, you can start to see some funky behavior (feel free to test if you're inclined!)

 

----G Skill Value F3-10666CL9-8GBNT 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3

Normally  8GB of ram is enough, but it depend what you're using it for I guess.

That however is a LOT of money to spend on new ram bro.... find second hand. If you have 4 slots, just get another 2x 4GB.

 

----Gigabyte Radeon HD 7770 1GB

This is where you're going to feel the jump!

Though with that said, I don't think I'd ever go for a 1060,1070, or 1080 while the price point to performance ratio is so fucked up thanks to the mining trend.

I'd try and delay for another year and then pick up an ex mining card for minimum dollars.

If I was in your shoes? I'd be getting a 1050ti.

http://gpu.userbench...770/3649vsm7710

More than DOUBLE your current cards power, doesn't need an external power connector (so your PSU will certainly be A-OK with it), and they didnt get swept up in the mining boom, so you can get one for under $200. As low as $100 second hand.

 

Just, if you can avoid it, dont pay the robbery price for GPU's right now, its bullshit.

1050ti, 118% faster, cheap, done.

 

At least thats my 2c.


Edited by Master_Scythe, 15 February 2018 - 10:13 AM.

Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#6 SquallStrife

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:39 AM

...and if you haven't already, get an SSD! >:)
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#7 Rybags

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 11:01 AM

Yep, if a tight budget then in order of priority to get a better system I'd be going Graphics, SSD, CPU then Ram.



#8 SceptreCore

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 02:07 PM

I've got an old 8gb set lying about the place somewhere if you're that set on it. But I'd follow the sound recommendations thus far presented.


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#9 mykl_c

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 08:11 PM

Great! Thanks everyone. Just found a pair of  Kingston kvr1333d3n9/4g that I swapped out of someone's machine, so they'll be going in shortly!

Is there any real difference between an ASUS Phoenix 1050 Ti and an Inno3D card? Yes, I'm looking at PCCaseGear, I've had good experience with them over the last decade or so for other people's PCs, and the current components in my box.

Boot drive is a Seagate Barracuda, ST2000DM001, still reasonable for a physical drive but I guess a bottleneck for long-load time games. With the savings above, I could drop in a lovely Samsung 850 EVO 1TB, particularly if I can get it for less than $390! Yes, I'd love to get the Pro version, but $$$$. I just built a Sabre laptop with the Samsung 512GB 960 Pro NVMe and 1TB 850 Pro SSD. Wonderful stuff, but I could not keep them :(


ISAIAH 58:8 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—when you see the naked, to clothe him,and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?"

#10 Rybags

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 08:15 PM

I've been meaning to test it but for games and SSD won't necessarily mean big decrease in load times.  Often there's decompression going on, generation of shader commands and transfer of textures to the video card.

But it's up to you - these days with the 120 Gig ones starting a little over 60 bucks, no reason not to at least use one for the system drive.



#11 SquallStrife

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 08:16 AM

I've definitely noticed the difference after moving big games like Doom and Fallout 4 from my mechanical 4TB drives to an SSD.

Not massive improvements, but improvements no-less.

The big gains are had from putting the OS and pagefile on an SSD. Information subject to high volumes of random seeks is where SSD's shine.
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#12 Master_Scythe

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 09:11 AM

YES to all the above!

 

Get the 1TB SSD.

 

Get the 1050Ti (really only the cooling differs, read reviews)

 

Add that ram!

 

Up the BCLK to 105mhz!

 

 

Smash some games!


Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#13 SceptreCore

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 10:25 PM

You need to calm down a little Scythe... you're gonna have an accident in the pants.


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#14 Master_Scythe

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 09:15 AM

You need to calm down a little Scythe... you're gonna have an accident in the pants.

 

Oh it takes a lot more these days than a 5%, guaranteed safe, overclock to get my pants even slightly moist.


Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#15 mark84

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 03:02 PM

GTX 1060 3GB should be something to aim for.

With Windows mining now not fitting into 3GB these should start popping up on ebay etc. Retail prices should drop too.

 

Is 1TB SSD necessary?

If keeping the HDD in the system for cold storage, save some dosh and go with a 500GB unit and put the savings towards better GPU like the GTX 1060 3GB (and still have money left over). Which for gaming is ultimately your primary choke point.

 

You could spend years waiting for the mining boom to finish, who knows.

As is always the case with PC upgrades, buy the best with what you can afford now. You can spend eternity waiting for the next best/cheaper thing.


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#16 Master_Scythe

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 03:16 PM

GTX 1060 3GB should be something to aim for.

With Windows mining now not fitting into 3GB these should start popping up on ebay etc. Retail prices should drop too.

 

Is 1TB SSD necessary?

If keeping the HDD in the system for cold storage, save some dosh and go with a 500GB unit and put the savings towards better GPU like the GTX 1060 3GB (and still have money left over). Which for gaming is ultimately your primary choke point.

 

You could spend years waiting for the mining boom to finish, who knows.

As is always the case with PC upgrades, buy the best with what you can afford now. You can spend eternity waiting for the next best/cheaper thing.

 

With high res textures, more memory, and slower clocks would actually be my go to, I'd stick with the 4GB 1050ti personally.

Depends if you want 'high settings' on AA\AF\Lighting\Shadows, or on Textures. Personally, for me, its textures.

 

Also games like DOOM wont even run on max settings without 4GB GPU RAM.

 

1TB SSD is so cheap now, I honestly think the $350ish you spend on them is good money.

You'll keep it for nearly life.

 

As for the mining boom; I honestly think you're wrong.

Not because the boom will finish, but because GPU mining will become so inefficient that ASIC miners will be the only power sensible option.

Or, since we've recently managed a new die-shrink, that better cards will take the mining crown, and people will upgrade.

Maybe not from the 1080ti's, they'll live on, but you'll probably start to see some 6GB 1060's or 1070's at least.

 

Buying a 'cheap' card like a 1050ti to bide you over at least 12~18 months, is the smart move, and you'll be able to play most things on High Textures, and medium shadows.

Especially if the game supports VULKAN.


Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#17 mark84

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 06:17 PM

With high res textures, more memory, and slower clocks would actually be my go to, I'd stick with the 4GB 1050ti personally.
Depends if you want 'high settings' on AA\AF\Lighting\Shadows, or on Textures. Personally, for me, its textures.

Sounds good, but at what point to you hand over 40% performance for the extra GB?

https://www.techpowe...aming_X/27.html

1080p up through 4K it's always 40%+ faster acording to above link.


Also games like DOOM wont even run on max settings without 4GB GPU RAM.

But would it run fast enough on a 1050Ti anyway at max settings to matter? 1440p it runs at 30fps.
According to above linked review the 3GB ran the DOOM test, even at 4K it still surpasses the 1050Ti. At 1440p it's 20fps (66%) faster!


1TB SSD is so cheap now, I honestly think the $350ish you spend on them is good money.
You'll keep it for nearly life.

Just depends on priorities, plus how many games you have simultaneously installed.
Definitely it's a keep for life thing.

As for the mining boom; I honestly think you're wrong.
Not because the boom will finish, but because GPU mining will become so inefficient that ASIC miners will be the only power sensible option.
Or, since we've recently managed a new die-shrink, that better cards will take the mining crown, and people will upgrade.
Maybe not from the 1080ti's, they'll live on, but you'll probably start to see some 6GB 1060's or 1070's at least.

Well yes but then once the ASIC miners took over Bitcoin, ASIC resistant alt coins were made.
If new ASIC's come out for Ethereum etc new alt currencies will be made that only GPU's are good at running.
When you can code a new crypto currency faster than you can design and fabricate an ASIC for it, chances are generalised crypto computing on GPU's won't disappear any time soon.
Only mentioning the 1060 thing because the most popular alt coin on the most popular OS now isn't tenable, so the demand for the 3GB model should weaken. Theoretically.

Buying a 'cheap' card like a 1050ti to bide you over at least 12~18 months, is the smart move, and you'll be able to play most things on High Textures, and medium shadows.
Especially if the game supports VULKAN.

Totally agree however he'll have an even better experience in that 12-18 months if 1TB isn't completely necessary ;)
Just offering him options.

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#18 Master_Scythe

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 08:44 AM

You're not wrong.

 

But you do pose an interesting question;

Where would I draw the line between 40% performance, and an extra GB of RAM (better textures)?

That would depend on what I play.

Using DOOM as a recent example, it wont even let you SEE, let alone SELECT 'Hardcore' mode in the graphics settings without 4GB of RAM.

Textures are just too big to load in 3GB. And yes the 1050ti unoverclocked DOES dip below 60 occasionally in that title, but rarely. (shadows are a killer, and I think those linked test examples are 100% maxed out, so of course shadows and AA will kill a 'weaker' card).

 

Slide the GPU drivers built in overclock sliders to max, and you get about a 15% boost in performance.

 

Also since he has an old PSU, and it only needs socket power, we're avoiding the possible 'New PSU' caveat of a 1060 also.

 

Then there's always the relative performance gain, he's gaining 120% performance with a 1050ti (unoverclocked).

 

And finally, You won't find a 1060 for $100 like you will a 1050ti, and even if you shift budget from the SSD, it still doesn't change the fact that you're being robbed on GPU pricing till mining find a new fanboi.

Affordable or not has never been an OK parameter, I'd drive a Ferrari if it was.

For me its all about Value for money, and $250+ for a used 1060 3GB when they were less than that NEW a few years ago? Just... sour taste....

Though, admittedly, this is a personal thing :)


Edited by Master_Scythe, 22 February 2018 - 08:45 AM.

Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"


#19 mark84

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 11:03 AM

I totally get what you're saying about the texture stuff and agree to an extent.

Can you link any game benchmarks that show the extra GB on 1050 ti helping over the 3GB 1060?
We also don't know what monitor(s) he's using. With a single 1080p monitor the GTX 1060 3GB will be great. Higher rez or duals you'd have a better argument for sure.

1050ti goes for $200, if there's stock
http://www.staticice... 1050 ti&spos=3
https://www.pccasege...rce-gtx-1050-ti
$300 when there's not

1060 3gb is $300 if there's stock
http://www.staticice...1060 3gb&spos=1
https://www.pccasege...eforce-gtx-1060
$420 if not

+40% perf for $100 more seems a reasonable deal to me. Yes little bit less on the bang for buck scale, but when there's games involved imo the GPU should get the highest single portion of the budget possible.

 

Regarding the PSU connector issue, he's never mentioned his PSU??

He has a HD7770 atm which requires a single connector so we can infer that whatever his PSU is it'll drive a 1060 just fine.

 

 

 

Ahh I miss talking builds on these forums. It was the shiz in Atomic's hey day. Glad you're still around Scythe :)


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#20 Master_Scythe

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 11:53 AM

Once again, you're right; Its more that some games won't allow max settings without 4GB, not that it will ever outperform.

Also, when those cards first came out (along with Doom) Vulkan wasn't much on the radar.

So the 4GB performance isn't easy to find an A:B.

I didn't think about his current GPU and whether it had a power connector, very true, that's likely not a concern.

OK, I'll agree, but I'd still be looking second hand, because fuck the price hikes new thanks to mining.

 

I'm not sure where I got the impression, but I had the second hand market in my head when i was thinking about card costs.

If buying new, fair cop.

 

The only thing I'll disagree with is that when games are involved the biggest item should be GPU; The Huge caveat there for me is that the entire PC is already on an SSD.

The improvement system wide, in every aspect that an SSD brings, even in hardware interrupt pauses as a disk 'spins up' is phenomenal.

 

If a PC is LITERALLY a gaming machine, you turn it on, open steam, game, then turn it off, I'll agree.

But if you browse the web, read things, play music, and the like.... then I'm saying Nope, giant SSD would always be my go before a GPU upgrade.


Wherever you go in life, watch out for Scythe, the tackling IT support guy.

"I don't care what race you are, not one f*cking bit, if you want to be seen as a good people, you go in there and you f*ck up the people who (unofficially) represent you in a negative light!"





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