hoes before bros?, garden hoes, that is Options

[elvenwhore]

The Easter foils have been peeled back, chocolates have been consumed and some of us have been left thinking, "oops, perhaps I went a little overboard?"

Relax, it was a long weekend :-)

Speaking of this latest foodie holiday, an interesting question was posed to me over the break: is vegetarianism/veganism a selfish path to take?

A little background: I am a vegan (that is, I don't consume animal flesh or by-products). I was a vegetarian for about 8 years, and I've been vegan for about 3 years now. I conceede this is a rather extreme lifestyle choice. It's a difficult path and in no way do I ever wish to force this choice on anyone else (I exist in a cohabitation with an omni and we get along juuuuuust fine). I know the joys of cooking for and sharing meals with others, so I understand the significance of creating something by your own hands to share. Turning that offer down is not a decision I take lightly, and it is a situation that can inspire me to feel bad or guilty. I always try to be polite and respectful of other people's choices; after all, this is a choice I've made and I respect that others have every right to make their own choices (and I have no problem with that; see aforementioned Mister Omni). I try as hard as I can to ensure that my choices don't have a negative impact on others (eg, restaurant choices, preparing meals to share, organising events).

Food-centric holidays such as Easter and Christmas are always interesting for me. My family is very relaxed and I love cooking, so it's quite easy for me to help cook and prepare something for me to eat and share with the family. Everyone is very understanding and accomodating. However, there are times when I feel I need to turn down the offer of food; mashed potatoes with milk and butter, or a barbequed sausage sandwich, or a cake with egg, and it's not a decision I enjoy making, nor do I take it lightly.

But I thought it was a very interesting question. Much is made in different circles (the media, foodie/health arenas, the blogosphere, etc) that veg*anism is a "compassionate" or "gentle" choice, that it takes into account animals or the environment or trees in the Amazon, or something (note that I personally don't believe that veg*anism is the only compassionate choice, nor do I believe that omni's can't be compassionate or informed consumers). But taking into account social conventions and etiquette, is a plant-based diet one that values animals over humans, thus actually making it the selfish path to take?

[unco_tomato]

It's a good question, but I think you would fall into the pile of people labeled "considerate of others" and are clearly aware of the way your actions impact others. I have a vegan friend who is a self righteous prick about it, well, not so much in the past few months (mainly because I''ve only seen him a handful of times), but he was a real arse clown about it for a few years. If he came over to my BBQ that I was throwing for around 15-20 people he would have a go at me for not having anything other than a simple garden salad as a Vegan friendly choice. This is probably what led to him not coming over as much when I hosted a party, and eventually leading to our relationship that currently exists - in that we don't see each other all that often.

Was I right in only preparing a garden salad? Should I have cooked up entire Vegan dishes? I would have thought the responsibility for his specialist diet rests solely on him when he is attending a party with 15-20 people. Sure, if he was coming over with only 2-3 other mates, I may have just cooked a completely Vegan dish for us all to eat, as it's something I don't mind doing on the odd occasion.

[Gharphield]

Wow I had no idea you were Vegan ... what's a shame about a lot of Vegans I know, is that they let you know all the time. At every chance, and tell me how I'm going to hell in a hand basket because I like to eat French Toast.

Then there are people such as yourself who simply realise its a lifestyle choice that you want to go by, and that's awesome :) Long story short ... +1 to what Unco_Tomato said :)

[ReapermanRS]

This topic needs moar poll.

In a word, No.

My thoughts on this are probably not going to make much sense but here we go. Personal choices that directly affect your own body are almost by defintion selfish, therefore everyone is selfish when it comes to there own bodies which makes everyone equal in that regard.
I've recently made a decision to make my diet strictly controlled. I can eat whatever I like so long as I do not exceed 8000 kilojoules in a day. While that sounds like a lot a single 200g dark chocolate easter bunny has about 4800 kilojoules so I've gone chocolateless this easter for the first time ever and I don't think it makes me selfish.

For a more extreme example would you consider a Hindu to be selfish for not partaking in a Steak night, or a Muslim for not joining in with Bacon and eggs for breakfast?
I doubt it, because I expect you would respect their beliefs.

not sure if needs /rant or not.

[Foods]

I was a vegetarian for over 2 years, about 8 years ago. But no-one that didn't directly ask me if I was a vegetarian would have known, because I didn't shove it in peoples faces like every other vegen/tarian I've ever encountered.

"You know what that does to your body?"
"I can't believe you'd put that into your body"

My response is always "That is right, my body".

To some people this may seem ironic, but I keep a lot of my private life, private. I give others the same respect. And thats what really gets my goat about vege's, the complete lack of respect in my lifestyle choices. If you want to eat no meat, eat no meat. If you want to eat meat, eat meat. Your body, your choice.


'

[Gharphield]

Yeah Foods was always a 'meat eater' hurr hurr hurr ...

I replied to this thread because I recently had a friend that went Vegan ... but very militant Vegan. EW is nothing like that :)

[once_i_was_a_mag...]

I don't think it's a selfish path to take.

I agree with others that the vegans/vegetarians who shove it in your face constantly ruin it for the others. My auntie is a vegan and expects the pantry and fridge to be stocked with vegan friendly food when she visits. She also gets pissy if you cook meat when she visits. I used to refrain from eating meat when she would visit, but now I don't care anymore, so last year I cooked a steak right infront of her.

If you don't push your views or opinions of it on other people, then it's a perfectly fine way to live.

[t3hmarz]

I don't think it is selfish.
I would be vegetarian myself, except sometimes I just feel like something meaty.
Pescatarianism is something I could get behind though :)

Veganism/Vegetarianism is something I support, because it's their own choices. This contrasts with my family, who think people who don't eat meat are stupid/satanists.

Also, good job on being Vegan EW, I hear it's a really hard lifestyle to keep up :)

[BeDLaM#29]

If everyone was vegan there'd be no poverty (it takes enough grain to feed 50 to produce 1 steak), and we'd virtually wipe out climate change (agriculture is the second highest source of greenhouse gasses, behind stationary power and more than transport). I see as the more compassionate choice for humans, as it would create a better world for them, forgetting entirely about animal rights.

I was vegetarian for 12 months and the thing that struck me most was how much of an imposition it was for everyone else. The amount of times I had to eat third rate dishes at restaurants we went for family gatherings, and even wait longer for them; the amount of people who would sigh when you told them about it at parties (even though I was willing to take care of my own food). I never forced my opinion on anyone else, but I found the average omni definitely did. I gave in eventually (I missed chicken), but I greatly admire vegetarians for their resolve. They make the more evolved choice, and I'm always willing to bend over backwards to accommodate.

[Saponification]

I guess it's a personal choice, really. I mean most days you eat, you're paying or cooking for yourself. You can cater for your own preferences without bothering anyone.

From the perspective of someone who sometimes cooks for vegetarians, I guess it's not so much 'oh, this person is a selfish dickhead' as 'oh, I guess that's a mildly annoying'. Not that I really put much thought into it. It's not like they're any better or worse than someone who demands all meat cooked well-done or gets all silly about my sometimes generous use of butter or pork. But most vegetarians I know--or at least, most vegetarians I cater for--don't make a big deal about things. I admit to not making a special effort to provide or modify a dish just for them. Red beans and rice contains smoked hocks. If I'm cooking for a group of people that includes a vegetarian, I'm not going to exclude the pork to appease just one person. Same deal if you kept kosher or halal. But there will usually be something for them to eat--the selection just won't be as wide as what is avaliable to people who eat 'normally', for want of a better word. As I said, I don't cater for that many people with unusual diets. I guess, coming from a background of 'you get what you get', a guest who demands specific things cooked in specific ways, just like unco_tomato's vegenazi friend, is a bit of a dick. And, thinking about it, I guess I'd be far less likely to make the effort to include a couple of interesting vegan options than I would for someone like you or one of my girlfriend's friends, who doesn't make a deal about it.

EDIT

To a point, Bedlam. Some restaurants do a really poor job of catering for vegetarians and, to be honest, they'd be better off just saying look, sorry, we can't cater for you. Everyone would be happier. But you have restaurants--Jacques Reymond and Attica and Embrasse come to mind--that produce fuck off amazing vegetarian dishes and/or tasting menus. It can be done. A fuck off amazing vegan tasting menu would be harder still, but I see no real reason it couldn't be done. I'm not sure of Jacques Reymond's much-vaunted vegetarian degustation is actually vegan or not, although I suspect if you mentioned your preference when booking they'd maybe be able to help you out.

This post has been edited by Saponification: Apr 11 2012, 11:37 AM

[unco_tomato]

If everyone was vegan there'd be no poverty (it takes enough grain to feed 50 to produce 1 steak), and we'd virtually wipe out climate change (agriculture is the second highest source of greenhouse gasses, behind stationary power and more than transport). I see as the more compassionate choice for humans, as it would create a better world for them, forgetting entirely about animal rights.

I was vegetarian for 12 months and the thing that struck me most was how much of an imposition it was for everyone else. The amount of times I had to eat third rate dishes at restaurants we went for family gatherings, and even wait longer for them; the amount of people who would sigh when you told them about it at parties (even though I was willing to take care of my own food). I never forced my opinion on anyone else, but I found the average omni definitely did. I gave in eventually (I missed chicken), but I greatly admire vegetarians for their resolve. They make the more evolved choice, and I'm always willing to bend over backwards to accommodate.

Why not be vegetarian at home, but then just eat what you want when you go out? Seems like a good compromise to me?

[Mac Dude]

If everyone was vegan there'd be no poverty (it takes enough grain to feed 50 to produce 1 steak), and we'd virtually wipe out climate change (agriculture is the second highest source of greenhouse gasses, behind stationary power and more than transport). I see as the more compassionate choice for humans, as it would create a better world for them, forgetting entirely about animal rights.

I was vegetarian for 12 months and the thing that struck me most was how much of an imposition it was for everyone else. The amount of times I had to eat third rate dishes at restaurants we went for family gatherings, and even wait longer for them; the amount of people who would sigh when you told them about it at parties (even though I was willing to take care of my own food). I never forced my opinion on anyone else, but I found the average omni definitely did. I gave in eventually (I missed chicken), but I greatly admire vegetarians for their resolve. They make the more evolved choice, and I'm always willing to bend over backwards to accommodate.

I'm not sure I can go with the 'If everyone was vegan there'd be no poverty'. There is enough food produced today to feed everyone, the problem is wealth and distribution, not quantity.

As for the OP question, like many things, it depends. If you continually put yourself before others because of your lifestyle choice, then I'd say yes.

This post has been edited by Mac Dude: Apr 11 2012, 12:18 PM

[BeDLaM#29]

If everyone was vegan there'd be no poverty (it takes enough grain to feed 50 to produce 1 steak), and we'd virtually wipe out climate change (agriculture is the second highest source of greenhouse gasses, behind stationary power and more than transport). I see as the more compassionate choice for humans, as it would create a better world for them, forgetting entirely about animal rights.

I was vegetarian for 12 months and the thing that struck me most was how much of an imposition it was for everyone else. The amount of times I had to eat third rate dishes at restaurants we went for family gatherings, and even wait longer for them; the amount of people who would sigh when you told them about it at parties (even though I was willing to take care of my own food). I never forced my opinion on anyone else, but I found the average omni definitely did. I gave in eventually (I missed chicken), but I greatly admire vegetarians for their resolve. They make the more evolved choice, and I'm always willing to bend over backwards to accommodate.

Why not be vegetarian at home, but then just eat what you want when you go out? Seems like a good compromise to me?

First, why should the person making a more evolved lifestyle choice have to compromise for the norm?

We add bike lanes, include laws for giving way to buses, stop people from smoking in public because we recognise that some choices are more evolved and deserve to be given preferential treatment.

A restaurant should cater for the paying customer. I remember waiting nearly an hour longer than the others seated at my table for a very crappy cantalone, simply because I asked them to use a straight Napoli sauce rather than Bologniese. At a Polish restaurant I asked for the Pierogi straight with no gravy, took them three times to get it right. I was paying at these places and deserved service.

At parties people would be offended that I knocked back food when I told them I was vegetarian and as such ate before I came. I was a DJ at the time, so it was often an issue.

I usually eat vegetarian at home; will use tofu in a stir fry over meat, often cook Dhals and pasta without meat. I eat meat maybe three times a week. If I have a dinner party and there is a vegetarian, it will be a vegetarian dinner party. If there is a kosher or halal guest (hasn't happened yet) I would probably just make it a vegetarian dinner party, as it would be simpler than sourcing halal or kosher meat. If someone is on a diet I will watch the amount of fat I put into the meal. I feel that as a good host I should try to cater to my guests, but that's just me and I wouldn't expect the same from others.

I'm not sure I can go with the 'If everyone was vegan there'd be no poverty'. There is enough food produced today to feed everyone, the problem is wealth and distribution, not quantity.

I agree, however if so much resource wasn't waisted on agriculture, poverty would be next to impossible to maintain

[unco_tomato]

First, why should the person making a more evolved lifestyle choice have to compromise for the norm?

I was just saying that as you are no longer Vegetarian because it was "too hard' to deal with when you left the house. My point was, why not eat Vego at home, then do whatever is easy when out? If you're willing to drop being a vegetarian to make you're life easier, it just seems to make sense to still practice it, but give yourself a free pass when dining out - But it seems like you're (close enough to) doing that anyway, so my question is answered.

As for the whole grain "wasted" on agriculture, you could say the same thing about grain being used for beer. But wait? People have been raising herds/flocks and brewing beer for thousands of years, all from grains. The one thing that has changed, and led to the devastating poverty in Africa and other regions is generally human greed. The people in charge in those areas, and poor decisions or neglect on their behalf. I import rare grains from Africa for brewing, often types of grains not grown anywhere else, and it is often cheaper than some common grains grown in Australia. This is because of cheap or slave labor, that is still very wide spread there. The way we fix poverty is not by growing more grain (they have tons of it), it's by fixing laws and getting the corrupt rules out of power.

[Mac Dude]

If everyone was vegan there'd be no poverty (it takes enough grain to feed 50 to produce 1 steak), and we'd virtually wipe out climate change (agriculture is the second highest source of greenhouse gasses, behind stationary power and more than transport). I see as the more compassionate choice for humans, as it would create a better world for them, forgetting entirely about animal rights.

I was vegetarian for 12 months and the thing that struck me most was how much of an imposition it was for everyone else. The amount of times I had to eat third rate dishes at restaurants we went for family gatherings, and even wait longer for them; the amount of people who would sigh when you told them about it at parties (even though I was willing to take care of my own food). I never forced my opinion on anyone else, but I found the average omni definitely did. I gave in eventually (I missed chicken), but I greatly admire vegetarians for their resolve. They make the more evolved choice, and I'm always willing to bend over backwards to accommodate.

Why not be vegetarian at home, but then just eat what you want when you go out? Seems like a good compromise to me?

First, why should the person making a more evolved lifestyle choice have to compromise for the norm?

We add bike lanes, include laws for giving way to buses, stop people from smoking in public because we recognise that some choices are more evolved and deserve to be given preferential treatment.

A restaurant should cater for the paying customer. I remember waiting nearly an hour longer than the others seated at my table for a very crappy cantalone, simply because I asked them to use a straight Napoli sauce rather than Bologniese. At a Polish restaurant I asked for the Pierogi straight with no gravy, took them three times to get it right. I was paying at these places and deserved service.

At parties people would be offended that I knocked back food when I told them I was vegetarian and as such ate before I came. I was a DJ at the time, so it was often an issue.

I usually eat vegetarian at home; will use tofu in a stir fry over meat, often cook Dhals and pasta without meat. I eat meat maybe three times a week. If I have a dinner party and there is a vegetarian, it will be a vegetarian dinner party. If there is a kosher or halal guest (hasn't happened yet) I would probably just make it a vegetarian dinner party, as it would be simpler than sourcing halal or kosher meat. If someone is on a diet I will watch the amount of fat I put into the meal. I feel that as a good host I should try to cater to my guests, but that's just me and I wouldn't expect the same from others.

I'm not sure I can go with the 'If everyone was vegan there'd be no poverty'. There is enough food produced today to feed everyone, the problem is wealth and distribution, not quantity.

I agree, however if so much resource wasn't waisted on agriculture, poverty would be next to impossible to maintain

A couple of points :

The idea that being a vegan is a 'more evolved lifestyle' might be your opinion, but that doesn't make it fact :) I'm with David Attenborough who in a recent interview stated that there was no way he was giving up meat, and I think of him as being pretty evolved :P

As for poverty being impossible to maintain if everyone was a vegan, I think you greatly underplay the wealth and distribution factors I previously mentioned. They are not dependent on the type of food grown, just on people's implementation of capitalism - we won't ship food unless there is a buck in it.

[Foods]

Anyone else feel the communist vibe coming into this thread now?


'

[ReapermanRS]

...Lots of stuff

A couple of points :

The idea that being a vegan is a 'more evolved lifestyle' might be your opinion, but that doesn't make it fact :) I'm with David Attenborough who in a recent interview stated that there was no way he was giving up meat, and I think of him as being pretty evolved :P

As for poverty being impossible to maintain if everyone was a vegan, I think you greatly underplay the wealth and distribution factors I previously mentioned. They are not dependent on the type of food grown, just on people's implementation of capitalism - we won't ship food unless there is a buck in it.

Glad you covered that, saved me having to and you did a better job of it.

Anyone else feel the communist vibe coming into this thread now?


'

Surely you jest, Comrade Foods

[Saponification]

I usually eat vegetarian at home; will use tofu in a stir fry over meat, often cook Dhals and pasta without meat. I eat meat maybe three times a week. If I have a dinner party and there is a vegetarian, it will be a vegetarian dinner party. If there is a kosher or halal guest (hasn't happened yet) I would probably just make it a vegetarian dinner party, as it would be simpler than sourcing halal or kosher meat. If someone is on a diet I will watch the amount of fat I put into the meal. I feel that as a good host I should try to cater to my guests, but that's just me and I wouldn't expect the same from others.

As a good host and all, is there still some point where you draw the line and say 'piss on that'? Take, for example, some adults I've met who eat like a stereotypical six year old. Oh, I don't eat this meat or that meat or that meat. Or these vegetables. Or these things--eggs or tofu. No beans. No this. No that. Not too much spice. Or maybe only organic stuff. Is it chicken nuggets and sausage rolls with tomato sauce for everyone, if you happen to invite someone like that?


This post has been edited by Saponification: Apr 11 2012, 02:19 PM

[Hlass]

The idea that being a vegan is a 'more evolved lifestyle' might be your opinion, but that doesn't make it fact :) I'm with David Attenborough who in a recent interview stated that there was no way he was giving up meat, and I think of him as being pretty evolved :P

As for poverty being impossible to maintain if everyone was a vegan, I think you greatly underplay the wealth and distribution factors I previously mentioned. They are not dependent on the type of food grown, just on people's implementation of capitalism - we won't ship food unless there is a buck in it.

It could be argued that a vegan/vegetarian diet is a more "morally" evolved choice in it's recognition of the suffering of other animals.

Certainly stopping meat production would free up a shitload of resources. Where we go from there isn't certain however.

[elvenwhore]

Cooool, interesting responses :-) I found it interesting to think about because it challenges me directly, being one who holds these views. Personally, I try to make my footprint as small as possible, in terms of stepping on other people's toes, but it was an interesting intellectual exercise for me to consider that maybe I'm an insensitive bitch, regardless of my efforts, purely because of my choices :-)

As Mister Dude said:

As for the OP question, like many things, it depends. If you continually put yourself before others because of your lifestyle choice, then I'd say yes.

I too think "it depends" and I think it depends on a number of factors. Situation and context is obviously important - contrast the difference between turning down wedges (w/sour cream) at the pub with workmates versus turning down a handmade hot cross bun from a significantly important person. In the former situation, the stakes (steaks? haha, I'm hilarious) are much lower. Consequently, there's a very personal complication, which is personal attachment and investment in a situation.

How one conducts oneself is also important. I think most, if not everyone, in this thread objects to people shoving personal beliefs down our throats :-) But again with the hypotheticals, contrasting the difference between turning down a cup of tea and a chocolate biscuit because one isn't hungry, versus not liking chocolate versus not consuming dairy - there's little functional difference there, so as long as a fuss isn't made it is probably much of a muchness for most people.

Then there's one's reasons for abstaining from meat or animal products in the first place - whether those reasons are medical, ethical, religious, for health purposes or anything in between. I know someone who refrains from eating dairy for health purposes, but he has no ethical objections so it's not a big deal to him if he is accidentally served a coffee with moo juice instead of soy milk.

But then there's also the issue of the other person and how they feel. If they feel rejected, dismissed, belittled or that they need to be on the defensive, then that creates a barrier and that can be a negative. This partially gets back to what I said earlier about personal conduct, but some things are outside one's control.

So yeah, I agree that "it depends" and I think it depends on a number of things. Fun, isn't it? :-)

I would have thought the responsibility for his specialist diet rests solely on him when he is attending a party with 15-20 people.

That's pretty much exactly the way I see it - if I'm going somewhere with others or to someone's place, then I am my own responsibility.

Wow I had no idea you were Vegan ... what's a shame about a lot of Vegans I know, is that they let you know all the time.

By design - I've found that, unless the topic of food explicitly comes up, there's little reason for me to bring it up:
"Speaking as a vegan..."
"err... we were talking about snowmobile parts?"

Personal choices that directly affect your own body are almost by defintion selfish, therefore everyone is selfish when it comes to there own bodies which makes everyone equal in that regard.

Good point :-)