Police and lethal force - what's so hard to understand? Options

[Juggalo Scrub]

I may be mistaken, but thats not how i'm reading it. From his last post, it appears he wants cops to "Understand WHY someone threatened with their own death chooses that path", which would lead to the cops not shooting in that situation - and perhaps adopting the pepper spray vs sword wielding maniac showdown you mentioned.

Again, i could be mistaken but thats how he comes across to me.

[Juggs]

Reducing such incidents occurs well before the guns are drawn, infact it occurs before the 'shootee' creates the incident in the first place. Thats where you get into the proper care, supervision and so forth for such people.

The negligence in that situation isn't with the police--it's with the government.

I agree with this, but in this scenario, as i stated earlier, its too late to want to take stock of someones mental capacity once the situation has reached the point where the weapons come into play.

[Genisis X]

My thoughts on the topic are that the rights of the knife wielding maniac are secondary to the rights of those people, including police officers, who he is putting in danger. His mental health is completely irrellevent at the point where he arms himself and poses a threat to the general public.

-X

[Nich...]

I may be mistaken, but thats not how i'm reading it. From his last post, it appears he wants cops to "Understand WHY someone threatened with their own death chooses that path", which would lead to the cops not shooting in that situation - and perhaps adopting the pepper spray vs sword wielding maniac showdown you mentioned.

Again, i could be mistaken but thats how he comes across to me.

I got the impression he wants post-action review so that things can be changed so that the situation doesn't reoccur from a social perspective, rather than to make the police walk around full of self-doubt.

Hence my earlier post - you're arguing about agreeing with each other :p

[Cybes]

(sword-waving dude) I don't think any stable person could imagine being paid enough to run up and hit the guy with an eyeful of pepper spray.

I reckon cops should have capsicum/mace/pepper-doped vortex guns... That would deliver your irritant of choice at reasonable (~35 feet) range - though bystanders may be caught in the downrange wash in the scenario you gave.

[osama_bin_athlon]

Third, Glocks are amazing. You can bathe one in mud for a day, dig it out, give it a wipe with a bare hand and it'll still fire. And cycle! Even so, it's only common sense to keep the thing on which your life may depend in top working order.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKvgHhS6hRU

[Mac Dude]

I'm not sure how you're reading things into what I posted. Let me try and clear it up...

I think you have it arse backwards tbh.

You're right - I don't care for the mindset of the 'shootee' in this instance. All I care about is that they've crossed whatever boundary has been set to engage, and that the police follow training instead of stopping to ask "why is he doing this?".

I am not saying the police should stop and ask why a particular person is behaving in a certain way. Nothing I've stated disagrees with your comment that police should follow their training. I disagree however with the first part above - I do care about the motivation of the shootee. Why do I care? Well, as I've said before, only through understanding can we possibly hope to reduce the number of incidents. Not caring about how these situations occur cannot lead to their reduction and their reduction is good for the community and good for the police.

This doesn't mean I believe the police should have the right to shoot on sight, it simply means that should the criteria be met - as i stated earlier for simplicity, the life of a bystander or the copper at risk - then thats all that mattters.

And nothing I've posted disagrees with that :) I agree.

I'd hate for some innocent bystander lose their life because the police weren't willing to engage someone because of their mental state. Its of absolutely no relevance to the situation, and at no time should it enter into the debate.

It didn't until you brought it up :P I never meant to suggest that the police should stop, pull out a couch and a notepad and try and analyze the offender. They need to consider the safety of the public and themselves, then the safety of the offender.

Reducing such incidents occurs well before the guns are drawn, infact it occurs before the 'shootee' creates the incident in the first place. Thats where you get into the proper care, supervision and so forth for such people.

But once the incident kicks off proper, and ticks every boxes for the cops to be required to pull their weapons, then the mental capacity of the person amounts to nothing when there are other lives at stake.

While reducing the incidents occurs well before guns are drawn, it's good practice to review WHY guns were drawn, WHY the offender behaved the way they did that lead to the police having to use lethal force. I've said it a number of times now, we need to understand the mindset of the offender if we hope to reduce the number of incidents. I don't know how I can say it more clearly.

[TheSingularity]

They are trained to shoot the mid-section, as to not injure bystanders, from what I've read.

So...If they taser a hostile who is holding a hostage and thus they are tasered that is okay? Yes the damage may not cause them to bleed...But still that is okay? I would like to see the affect of a single person in a tightly knit group get tasered and the result of them being too close/touching each other...heh heh...

I understand now that they also target for the largest center of mass for accuracy reasons. So why aren't they continually trained so they can make disabling shots such as the knee-caps?

I remember asking the same thing when a 15 year old was gunned down because he was threatening police with a knife and yet he had a mental illness if I remember correctly. And I remember the answer I got was center of mass etc etc.

[Nich...]

Why would they shoot out a teenager with a knife's knees when they could just glomp him and hug him until he drops the knife?

[fredzfrog]

Singularity, in most instances there isn't the time to line up a perfect wounding shot. they shouldn't because after the shot, with testosterone, adrenalyn, anger focus and any combination of prescribed and unperscribed substances may be assisting the offender to stay mobile, stay a threat.

If some punk-ass drug fucked homie was charging at me with a knife, i'd aim for the body, not the ankle to trip him because it is a more stable target and more likely to hit, and thus stop the offence.

[MrFriendly]

We should consider ourselves lucky in this country that police shootings are so rare that they generally always get an inquest. It's important that we look back and ask why things happen. The inquests aren't to hang cops out to dry because someone died, it's to understand why lethal force was needed, because when it happens it generally tickles the population a bit, and not in funny way.

We live (for the most part) in a free democratic society, and as part of that, we don't like the idea of authorities running around killing civilians for no reason, we merely want to find out the reason for those that care.

But I hold a much more interesting position on this, I would much rather police carry a firearm and occasionally have to use lethal force than have them using a taser. Under this guise of non lethal force I think tasers leave themselves far too open to abuse. Some of the rank abuse of authority that has gone down in the US as a result has been just fucking disgusting.

I'm glad in Australia we do take it seriously, and nearly every state that has introduced them has had to put a moratorium on their use because cops weren't using them properly. Victoria is going to roll them out for reals, and I knew that was only a matter of time, and as much as I really hate the idea of them, I'm slight more comfortable knowing that the police and government know how hairy an issue these things are.

This post has been edited by MrFriendly: Mar 27 2012, 07:04 PM

[fredzfrog]

Why would they shoot out a teenager with a knife's knees when they could just glomp him and hug him until he drops the knife?

I love you man :)

[@~thehung]

While reducing the incidents occurs well before guns are drawn, it's good practice to review WHY guns were drawn, WHY the offender behaved the way they did that lead to the police having to use lethal force. I've said it a number of times now, we need to understand the mindset of the offender if we hope to reduce the number of incidents. I don't know how I can say it more clearly.

from the aforelinked Four Corners story:

"New research from the Australian Institute of Criminology, soon to be published, will argue that the vast majority of interactions between police and people with a mental illness end constructively. But it will also reveal that 40 per cent of those who have been fatally shot by police since 1990 - including such high-profile cases as Roni Levi, Elijah Holcombe, and Tyler Cassidy - were suffering from a mental illness."

[Mac Dude]

While reducing the incidents occurs well before guns are drawn, it's good practice to review WHY guns were drawn, WHY the offender behaved the way they did that lead to the police having to use lethal force. I've said it a number of times now, we need to understand the mindset of the offender if we hope to reduce the number of incidents. I don't know how I can say it more clearly.

from the aforelinked Four Corners story:

"New research from the Australian Institute of Criminology, soon to be published, will argue that the vast majority of interactions between police and people with a mental illness end constructively. But it will also reveal that 40 per cent of those who have been fatally shot by police since 1990 - including such high-profile cases as Roni Levi, Elijah Holcombe, and Tyler Cassidy - were suffering from a mental illness."

The gaping flaw in my logic is, I'm assuming once we know more about the offender we will do something about it.

:(

[Nich...]

A large proportion of the population has or will or is dealing with depression.

It seems a little circular. What mentally stable person is going to provoke a bunch of cops to pull and use their guns?

[MrFriendly]

A large proportion of the population has or will or is dealing with depression.

It seems a little circular. What mentally stable person is going to provoke a bunch of cops to pull and use their guns?

I dare say people who have taken leave of their senses to the point of provoking the police to pull their gun might be suffering a mental illness a bit more severe than depression.

And I've known in people in my time who suffer no mental illness who I would have no trouble believing getting to the same point, mainly because their just scum bags with a chip on their shoulder.

I'm kinda with Juggs on this, if someone is posing that much of threat, lethal force is authorized and sometimes used, regardless of their state of mind at the time. This is where the inquest comes in, and questions get asked.

Having been at the wrong place at the wrong time once before where swat police appeared from no where holding shot guns to my face, as a relatively sane person, I was only too happy to comply with their every request.

[Mac Dude]

A large proportion of the population has or will or is dealing with depression.

It seems a little circular. What mentally stable person is going to provoke a bunch of cops to pull and use their guns?

Maybe a hitman? Then you could argue that a hitman is mentally ill. I think the benefit is that it starts to quantify the cost of not having mental institutions. There are many other costs, but this is a very public one.

[eveln]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-22/braz...dentity/3907068

"A Brazilian student who died after being tasered by New South Wales police may be the victim of mistaken identity, according to witness reports.

A store worker, who wants to remain anonymous, has told SBS Radio that Roberto Laudisio Curti, 21, was not the same person who stole a packet of biscuits from his store.

Police allege Mr Laudisio was tasered after resisting arrest over a robbery.

But the worker says everyone at the store believes it was a case of mistaken identity.

"The store's worker says it was not the same person who stole the biscuits and the one who died at Pitt Street," said SBS Portuguese Radio contributor Marcos Moreira.

"He confirmed that everyone in the store were keeping anonymous.

"The employee who was working on Sunday, for security reasons, [wants] to be protected in case the robber of the biscuits comes back to the store.

"This employee is being protected by police and by the owners of the store."

The Brazilian government has demanded a full investigation into Mr Laudisio's death, while the NSW Government says the state's ombudsman will oversee the investigation."


In a later article it says the dead guy was given a " clean bill of health " that is of course before he was tasered. He probably thought, "it's cool to resist as it's not a gun being aimed at me, plus I'm innocent "

This post has been edited by eveln: Mar 27 2012, 09:08 PM

[Elfarch]

Why would they shoot out a teenager with a knife's knees when they could just glomp him and hug him until he drops the knife?

Ummm, maybe because he has a knife?

To do the above you must close the range to contact. Ouch!

While being hugged you can still stab someone. Even with minimal wrist action you can work a knife into someones innards and wriggle it about without haveing to "stab".

[alexdtree]

in direct response as to why we need independent enquiries into the use of lethal force, is all about accountability.

an independent enquiry is essentially an audit.
company's have to be audited to ensure they are following proper practice.
but in this case we are talking about peoples lives.
If a police officer used appropriate force, they have absolutely nothing to worry about.
When you think about where police stand in our community as people we are supposed to look up to for protection and as model citizens its doubly important for us to believe they have the good of the people in mind.
Thus ensuring police acted properly and being able to turn to their employers i.e. the public and say "hey they did the right thing" is extremely important in my opinion.