Big Brother imposes fines up to $1M for blaming carbon tax., Tell me this is fake. Options

[Leonid]

Typically because hospitals are put on a different grid to most other places. (Sure, suburbs may share with the hospital, but then...).. So.. We'll get rolling blackouts with minimal impact on the hospital. The power providers will keep the 'switch on' for the hospital grid, and then roll the switch 'off' for 'non-essential' grids.

As far as I'm aware Sydney's hospitals get dedicated feeds but are still connected to the AEMO grid.

Thus if the grid's not got enough supply to meet demand, yes they can switch off some feeds to priorities and do rolling black-outs on a region-by-region basis like in Jo'burg. However, this only works assuming you've got supply coming in eventually. With solar you never get that certainty.

Just imagine the unlikely but possible scenario of "The Year Without a Summer"

If Canberra Hospital removed their ENTIRE multistory carpark, and replaced it with a dissolved salts solar generator, it'd likely work.

Not even close :)

The Archimede molten solar plant is a 5MW facility of 30,000m^2 with a capacity factor of 25%. ie it produces 10950MWh

Canberra hospital uses 27,754MWh per year.

In Archimede plant terms that would require an area of 76038m^2.

I'm reasonably sure Canberra Hospital's 2D surface area of the parking building is not that big :)

[AccessDenied]

Glad you say that Leo.. 2 of their smaller systems will fit in their carpark. Their smaller systems are 30MW.

So Canberra Hospital = 27MW... So.. 60MW into 27.. I think they can scrape it.

Pro tip: The archimedes one is like trying to compare 1st gen nuclear reactor to 3rd gen nuclear reactor.

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[Leonid]

Nor would 150 million euros be worth it :)

[AccessDenied]

heheheh.. Exactly. I like the carpark. I use it.

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[Leonid]

Glad you say that Leo.. 2 of their smaller systems will fit in their carpark. Their smaller systems are 30MW.

So Canberra Hospital = 27MW... So.. 60MW into 27.. I think they can scrape it.

Pro tip: The archimedes one is like trying to compare 1st gen nuclear reactor to 3rd gen nuclear reactor.

AD

Canberra Hospital is 3.16MW. It just uses 27,754MWh

There's no solar system that can get to 60MW without being absolutely gigantic in terms of area.

[AccessDenied]

Careful smile.. You'd be surprised Leo.. Again... Something I can't discuss on open forum. Stuff I've been shown ( thanks to Research school of physical science, and people in Wizard Power). There are patents involved that are actually effective. I can't discuss because of that, but would be happy to talk about over a beer...

And yes, solar systems can get to 60MW.. And beyond. Easily.. It's just the problem of STORING it effectively. The power solution I know of could do massive output if they were willing to do 'solar times only'. But they work on trying to get baseload into account as well.. It does horrible things to their efficiency because of that.

Storage is not your friend when it comes to power (Preach to the converted they said. Earn friends they said.... :P )

Just look at hydrogen fuel cells for how inefficient it is to store all that power.

However, under test conditions over numerous years at a site that is only a few k's away from Canberra hospital I can say that their system could supply Canberra hospital with their power needs in worst case situations using the space of their multi-story carpark. Is that a sufficient answer on an open forum for you Leo? IF you come to Canberra AND you give me notice, I'll put the word in that I want papers, and I will supply them. I *might* get them supplied as commercial in confidence. MIGHT! This is again something I can't discuss on an open forum (Christ.. I'm sounding like Chris G. - The big-boss's daughter is a friend of mine ok.. She works for the company. No.. We never tried to date or anything like that. Just friends.) I try to respect the commercial in confidence. Much of the stuff she has told me is 'open', but I don't know where the line is. So I'd rather errr on the side of caution. I'll talk with her in the next week and get answers though. But if you come to Canberra (Cause, christ. You're awesome to have a beer with mate) I'll give more answers.

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[Leonid]

Plu the Archimedes solar plant is a 2010 facility. How can it be old already?

[AccessDenied]

How old is a 3rd gen plant? both in paper and on ground?

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[Leonid]

Careful smile.. You'd be surprised Leo.. Again... Something I can't discuss on open forum. Stuff I've been shown ( thanks to Research school of physical science, and people in Wizard Power). There are patents involved that are actually effective. I can't discuss because of that, but would be happy to talk about over a beer...

And yes, solar systems can get to 60MW.. And beyond. Easily.. It's just the problem of STORING it effectively. The power solution I know of could do massive output if they were willing to do 'solar times only'. But they work on trying to get baseload into account as well.. It does horrible things to their efficiency because of that.

Storage is not your friend when it comes to power (Preach to the converted they said. Earn friends they said.... :P )

Just look at hydrogen fuel cells for how inefficient it is to store all that power.

However, under test conditions over numerous years at a site that is only a few k's away from Canberra hospital I can say that their system could supply Canberra hospital with their power needs in worst case situations using the space of their multi-story carpark. Is that a sufficient answer on an open forum for you Leo? IF you come to Canberra AND you give me notice, I'll put the word in that I want papers, and I will supply them. I *might* get them supplied as commercial in confidence. MIGHT! This is again something I can't discuss on an open forum (Christ.. I'm sounding like Chris G. - The big-boss's daughter is a friend of mine ok.. She works for the company. No.. We never tried to date or anything like that. Just friends.) I try to respect the commercial in confidence. Much of the stuff she has told me is 'open', but I don't know where the line is. So I'd rather errr on the side of caution. I'll talk with her in the next week and get answers though. But if you come to Canberra (Cause, christ. You're awesome to have a beer with mate) I'll give more answers.

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I might swing by canberra on the way to a better place (Jindabyne) in three weeks.

But solar can't actually get to 60MW without massive amounts of area. It can generate 60MWh certainly, but it's not a 60MW plant. Renault just installed 60MW capacity using 450,000m^2 of solar panels.

We can do the physical maths on this if you want :) There is no way to fit a 60MW plant into an area as small as Canberra Hospital's car park.

How old is a 3rd gen plant? both in paper and on ground?

AD

Well Wizard Power's Gen II Big Dish prototype has 500m^2 collecting area. Assuming 30% efficiency of the panels and average insolation of 5.7kWh/m^2/day we get the equation for maximum capacity:

0.3 * 5700 / 24 * 500 = 35,625W or 0.035625MW

Hell make the panels 100% efficient.

That's still only 118.75kW.

[Akamatsu]

Also your link regarding natural gas as a partner to renewables - you realise that's not a renewable form of energy? Nor emissions free?

Just because I'm pro-renewable, it doesn't mean I'm a hardline idealist. Natural gas is a great solution for these sorts of situations. It's cheap, reliable and (slightly) more environmentally friendly than coal As stated earlier, nuclear is the clear winner for baseline, but here's where I think solar has a place:



Take note of where the peak occurs, and combine it with your knowledge of steam turbines.

Coal turbines take about 6 hours to spin up so they don't just get randomly shutdown when there's enough power in the grid - that's what we have peak plants for - they're generally quick-start/quick-stop gas peak plants.

Now look at the (non-specific) output for solar:



Short term energy storage in the form of molten salts or grid connected electric vehicles is all it woud take for solar to handle peak demand for most days. Spread the plants around geographically and rely and existing links for state power grids, and there's the potential to save a fairly significant amount of emissions.

Being a skeptic of climate science, you might not see the value in this, but I think it's something you should consider given the short term nature of non-renewable fuel.

[AccessDenied]

Leo: You're assuming that they are using a standard silicon type receiver rather than anything else that exists out there.

I sent an email in this time. SO instead, my answer will be this.. I'll give an answer if my mate sends me something in the next 24 hrs..

So.. Watch this space.. (I'll poke her with an sms if she doesn't reply to my email.. :P )

My email apart from personal stuff and 'leadup leadout stuff' included this:

How efficient in Watts produced per M^2 is your solar power system? Including baseload and stuff like that?


Not a great question, but for a 'social email, great I hope..

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[Leonid]

Also your link regarding natural gas as a partner to renewables - you realise that's not a renewable form of energy? Nor emissions free?

Just because I'm pro-renewable, it doesn't mean I'm a hardline idealist. Natural gas is a great solution for these sorts of situations. It's cheap, reliable and (slightly) more environmentally friendly than coal As stated earlier, nuclear is the clear winner for baseline, but here's where I think solar has a place:



Take note of where the peak occurs, and combine it with your knowledge of steam turbines.

Coal turbines take about 6 hours to spin up so they don't just get randomly shutdown when there's enough power in the grid - that's what we have peak plants for - they're generally quick-start/quick-stop gas peak plants.

Now look at the (non-specific) output for solar:



Short term energy storage in the form of molten salts or grid connected electric vehicles is all it woud take for solar to handle peak demand for most days. Spread the plants around geographically and rely and existing links for state power grids, and there's the potential to save a fairly significant amount of emissions.

Being a skeptic of climate science, you might not see the value in this, but I think it's something you should consider given the short term nature of non-renewable fuel.

I'm looking, but without context it's hard to see - exactly which plants are the Buffalo and Las Vegas ones?

It's great that they can output a piddlingly small 3MW, but we need to know a little more than that about the plants

Leo: You're assuming that they are using a standard silicon type receiver rather than anything else that exists out there.

That's why I worked it out on the basis of average Canberran insolation per square metre and assumed 100% efficiency of conversion :)

[Director]

Posted by SWIM in another forum I frequent.

Time to talk about impending carbon tax effects...

I work in logistics.... All (and I mean everyone) of the participants in my industry are implementing a carbon tax excise.... Whether its justified or not I don't know... It is set to come into effect on the first of July... Note that this is an industry wide movement...

Know this... The most expensive component of everything you buy at the supermarket is the transport and logistics of the goods...

So expect the cost of everything to go up.... Well beyond what was expected...
Meanwhile most of our contractors have already indicated price increases to us for their services...From garbage collection to site maintenace...

Everyone will be charging more come July 1st....

NOTE: That the above refers to real price hikes that are about to occur... I have several letters on my desk outlining price rises to us.... Equally we will be applying a carbon tax excise to our clients...