Dare I Suggest A Programming FAQ Thread For Newbies, Just wondering if it would be a good idea for a sticky... Options

[TheSingularity]

Just as I was reading this I was thinking of asking the question are you are a psychologist or something similar and then the last line/paragraph answered that question.

My phone number must be in my unconscious section because I can't remember it half the time (mobile number) that's why I have it type into a note message in my phone hahaa.

I only see artificial intelligence as a means to the Singularity and hopefully to the solving of the worlds problems and basically a means to knowing everything and making something that if possible would know so much it would be God in a sense. Yes people could whine it goes against my Christian beliefs but they don't know what they are talking about so =P. And having something that knows everything would in a sense be able to think of a way to say travel to a certain part of the galaxy and say that answer though requires so much power which it doesn't have then it thinks up an answer to getting that power, then say it needs so much time to make that power, so it thinks up a way to do it instantaneously etc. I hope you get the point haha...

And that was very educational and interesting your post kikz thanks for that.

Oh I just remembered something I read somewhere, claiming that all our memories are actually just imaginations and that is how hypnosis that makes you remember things in that you don't really remember they are just making you imagine you remember something because there are no true memories...Or something along those lines anyway I came across it as I was researching my unusual thoughts on existence and that everything I had concluded in a sense is assumed.

Not sure how to indicate to a particular member I would like his attention but oh well. I was going to say to Xen that I discovered I may need to read this first http://cli.learncodethehardway.org/book/ according to his link =\ oh well looks informative and somewhat interesting...I hope it is. The site he linked to is written well the HTML version of the book that is, would like a paperback or hardback book so I could read without being on a computer/phone etc but HTML will have to do for now.

[kikz]

And having something that knows everything would in a sense be able to think of a way to say travel to a certain part of the galaxy and say that answer though requires so much power which it doesn't have then it thinks up an answer to getting that power, then say it needs so much time to make that power, so it thinks up a way to do it instantaneously etc. I hope you get the point haha...

Read this

[TheSingularity]

I shall tomorrow or on my phone later but for now I'm out!

Oh and the part you quoted I was told by someone I know that I should read the Hitch Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy because there is some mention to that there.

And that link looks rather interesting.

This post has been edited by thesingularity: Jan 6 2012, 10:34 PM

[kikz]

yah it's just fictional work by asimov but it addresses pretty much exactly the scenario of yours that i quoted.
Plus, asimov is awesome :)

This post has been edited by kikz: Jan 6 2012, 10:39 PM

[Xen]

Are you using Linux?

If so i could suggest some interesting books to look at.

I forgot about the Google AI challenge which started a while back... have a look at:

http://aichallenge.org/

[TheSingularity]

No I'm not currently using Linux, at one point this idea was around and may still be around the Binary Revolution forums stating that in a sense to be a hacker you must be a Linux user. Thus I installed Ubuntu but the problem was I couldn't do the main thing I do while reading which is gaming now I have a second monitor I have for example Starcraft 2 up while I read articles and forums so without Direct X support and the other drivers I need for my hardware to run games smoothly while gaming I don't see it as a fun idea currently. In the past when I had it install I also bumped into the annoying factor of uninstalling it and then discovering the dual boot would not work so I couldn't get back into Windows (XP at the time) but I finally worked out some hard way to fix that and yet I heard from a friend there is an easy solution.

So I'm using Windows 7 now as it is.

I would also appreciate the books, what books are you referring to though programming or to do with the same thing kikz supplied a link discribing something similar to?

I read about the Google AI challenge in the earlier part of the Programming thread when it came up.

[Xen]

Ah, no problem i just noticed one of the links you posted was referring to a lot of GNU tools.

I now run OpenSUSE full time and have a dual boot with win 7 for games.

I was referring to a few linux books but ill see if i can look at which books in general for programming and linux were useful.

IMO coding on windows just doesn't feel right :)

[katalyst]

No I'm not currently using Linux, at one point this idea was around and may still be around the Binary Revolution forums stating that in a sense to be a hacker you must be a Linux user. Thus I installed Ubuntu but the problem was I couldn't do the main thing I do while reading which is gaming now I have a second monitor I have for example Starcraft 2 up while I read articles and forums so without Direct X support and the other drivers I need for my hardware to run games smoothly while gaming I don't see it as a fun idea currently. In the past when I had it install I also bumped into the annoying factor of uninstalling it and then discovering the dual boot would not work so I couldn't get back into Windows (XP at the time) but I finally worked out some hard way to fix that and yet I heard from a friend there is an easy solution.

So I'm using Windows 7 now as it is.

I would also appreciate the books, what books are you referring to though programming or to do with the same thing kikz supplied a link discribing something similar to?

I read about the Google AI challenge in the earlier part of the Programming thread when it came up.

Hi thesingularity.

I have been following your thread with interest.
I would just like to second what Xen has said about using Linux.
I know it can be a pain in the arse when your chosen boot loader stuffs up. I have been through this myself.
But if you are serious about coding, I think linux is essential. At the very least, it can give you a far greater understanding of your machine.
Don't know too much about programming, as I quit my IT course early, and never bothered to follow it up. But if you are serious about contributing to the creation of a singularity, you will surely need to put much effort into the study of Psychology and Philosophy as well as coding.
As has been mentioned.

At any rate, I applaud you for aiming high. And wish you the very best.

[.:Cyb3rGlitch:.]

I don't see how using Linux helps your ability to code.

[katalyst]

I don't see how using Linux helps your ability to code.

From my limited experience with it. The need to constantly move into the console to tweek the OS, or programs, can be a stepping stone to the actual writing of code.
You can write write code just good from windows. But I think tinkering with linux would be a good pathway to moving up to actual coding.
Please correct me if I am mistaken.

[.:Cyb3rGlitch:.]

From my limited experience with it. The need to constantly move into the console to tweek the OS, or programs, can be a stepping stone to the actual writing of code.
You can write write code just good from windows. But I think tinkering with linux would be a good pathway to moving up to actual coding.
Please correct me if I am mistaken.

That connection is very very weak.

[katalyst]

From my limited experience with it. The need to constantly move into the console to tweek the OS, or programs, can be a stepping stone to the actual writing of code.
You can write write code just good from windows. But I think tinkering with linux would be a good pathway to moving up to actual coding.
Please correct me if I am mistaken.

That connection is very very weak.

Have I done something to offend you?

[kikz]

From my limited experience with it. The need to constantly move into the console to tweek the OS, or programs, can be a stepping stone to the actual writing of code.
You can write write code just good from windows. But I think tinkering with linux would be a good pathway to moving up to actual coding.
Please correct me if I am mistaken.

That connection is very very weak.

Have I done something to offend you?

But if you are serious about coding, I think linux is essential. At the very least, it can give you a far greater understanding of your machine.

Is like you saying "kikz, I don't think you're a serious programmer". Considering it's my lifes work, and I've only done it professionally on the Windows platform, I may find that offensive.
I don't though, becuase (besides it being a plainly ridiculous claim):

Don't know too much about programming

I haven't used a lot of Linux, only at home a small bit, and at Uni, so I'm interested to know how coding on linux will give me a better understanding of my machine that doing the same on windows.

From my limited experience with it. The need to constantly move into the console to tweek the OS, or programs, can be a stepping stone to the actual writing of code.
You can write write code just good from windows. But I think tinkering with linux would be a good pathway to moving up to actual coding.
Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I work a lot in the Console on Windows. Admittedly not for tweaking. I expect you might have an idea about Linux is you're modifying and compiling your own kernel, but that's already programming, isn't it :)

[Xen]

I think it used to come down to that the tools on windows weren't readily available.

Nowadays that's definitely not true so the argument is pretty much the same as if you want to be a graphics designer you need a mac.

As i said for me it just "feels" right to be coding on Linux, it does also teach me a lot about cross platform coding as all of my code i write for work run's on m work station but also needs to run on our WS2K servers.

Kikz codes primarily for windows (.net right?) so it makes sense for him to be developing in the environment that he works with.

I've stopped the MS bashing a while ago cause now there's no point as the majority of the arguments still thrown around are moot.

Just write on the system you feel comfortable in, try both and see how you fare.

Also if you choose to pick an IDE to code it (i.e eclipse, netbeans... etc) just try them all and see which one you like,
You will get many people telling you that you can only code in one certain one, generally that is cause that is the one they prefer.

[katalyst]

But if you are serious about coding, I think linux is essential. At the very least, it can give you a far greater understanding of your machine.

Is like you saying "kikz, I don't think you're a serious programmer". Considering it's my lifes work, and I've only done it professionally on the Windows platform, I may find that offensive.
I don't though, becuase (besides it being a plainly ridiculous claim):

Don't know too much about programming

I haven't used a lot of Linux, only at home a small bit, and at Uni, so I'm interested to know how coding on linux will give me a better understanding of my machine that doing the same on windows.

From my limited experience with it. The need to constantly move into the console to tweek the OS, or programs, can be a stepping stone to the actual writing of code.
You can write write code just good from windows. But I think tinkering with linux would be a good pathway to moving up to actual coding.
Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I work a lot in the Console on Windows. Admittedly not for tweaking. I expect you might have an idea about Linux is you're modifying and compiling your own kernel, but that's already programming, isn't it :)

Ok, that's fair enough. I can see why you are a bit put out. To be honest though, I would have thought that almost every programmer would have an interest in Linux.
I admit this is coming from a position of ignorance. As I have not used Linux myself in years. And would be hard pressed to throw two lines of C together these days.

My main reason for posting, is to note that, one would need a thorough understanding of philosophical concepts, to give birth to a conscious self, through digital means, in the mechanical realm.

As philosophy is a subject I know a thing or two about, and not programming, I should have limited my remarks to that.
I did not mean to poke anyone in the eye. I am trying to make friends here, not enemies.

[kikz]

Hey, no problem. I'm not offended. I did say 'I don't though', in regards to taking offence :P
You may take offence to this, but don't, because like you said, you're not an experienced programmer... IMO when someone claims programming on the Windows platform, or in a language that isn't platform independant, means they're somehow inferior are coming from a place of massive ignorance. It's happened here for years (as in about a decade), and each time someone says it I think less of them.

Getting a bit off topic, but seeing as you're self confessed inexperienced, I'll offer some of my experience and thoughts. Whats more important in making a 'good programmer' is exposure to different languages, particularly languages at different levels of abstraction and in different paradigms. Learn how things are written in a functional language, in a declarative style, in a prodecure language, in an object oriented language, in strong typed language versus a dynamic language and so on. It's possible to mimic various paradigms in different langugaes, such as you can do function programming in .NET via Linq, and you can mimic procedural code (Transaction Script patternesque). Exposure to a few different types of languages will hopefully enable you to see different candidate solutions to a problem.

Also, there's arguments about using C++ versus C# (for example) because C++ is multi-platform. That's true to an extent. If you use Visual C++ and throw in MFC you're going to have trouble simply doing a recompile for Linux and getting it to work as expected. Take Assembler... people rave on about it's 'power' because you can move bits and bytes and get initate with CPU registers. Too bad if you want to use it on a different CPU instruction set (x86 versus PowerPC etc) and the taken to implement solutions to certain problems (the kind of problems I'm interested in) is insane. The same can be said of C and even C++ in the area I work in.

I've made a good career from developing business solutions on the Windows platform (desktops and servers). There's little point in learning Linux and every time I've sat down and thought it's time to really grok it, I stop because I can better spend my time learning a new framework or language in .NET. Mainly because I know there's chance I'll ever need to develop for Linux. It works both ways too. I work at a company that is predominantly Linux based, or at least the Dev Manager is linux guy. Shock horror, he does development for windows on a Linux box! Anyway, the other way I was talking about is he knows didly squat about developing for Windows Server machines and doesn't know how to administer one, or how security, group policies, activity directory, federation, and all that shiz that's part in parcel of enterprise apps on a Windows. As a result he can't do that work. That's cool. I can't do the Linux equivalent either :)

As you get increasingly experienced, you'll likely get increasingly specialised. There is just too much tech out there and too many languages to get down into the really nitty gritty of even the 5 most popular. Also have a look at seekit.com.au sometime (or other job ads). You'll rarely see someone wanting a developer with 5+ years in each of Java, C#, C++, C, Ruby. Usually they'll want someone with 5+ years experience with a particular set of technologys, like LAMP or with .NET/Windows Server/SQL Server stack.

There's also the question of why do we develop software? In my industry/field it's to make money for the customer or the employer. We're making software to meet a business need, be it accouting software, fleet management, an ecommerce site, or myriad other necessary business apps. In this worlds it's about how fast can something be made that meets the requirements. Secondary is how maintainable it is. That goal is primary to the developers (should be, as 80% of the life and budget of software goes in maintenance). In the business world, opportunities can and are lost when software is late. Developing most business apps in C++, to be completely cross platform, is going to take longer than developing something in .NET, for a known environment, which likely wouldn't change anyway.

[katalyst]

Ahhh... cool, cool.

I was actually asking .:Cyb3rGlitch:. if I had offended him.
But I think you have given me a pretty good idea, of why he may have been a bit pissed with what I was saying.

I'm sorry to lead the thread off topic but am grate full you took the time share your knowledge on the matter.
As I have not completely given up on the idea of a career in IT. Even though I am now 38.
Even though I like the idea of Linux, it seems Windows has won the day.
You paint a pretty good picture of the programming landscape, for a relative layperson, as myself. Which is more than I can say for the IT career specialist that I asked a while back. Thank you.

[.:Cyb3rGlitch:.]

I don't know you came to the conclusion that I was offended. I'm not, why would I be?

[katalyst]

I don't know you came to the conclusion that I was offended. I'm not, why would I be?

You seemed to be coming across quite terse. Maybe I am just being too sensitive.

[kikz]

aware you were responding to cyberglitch. I was responding to the same thing he responded to . IMO he was simply saying the connection between tweaking your OS and being a good programmer is weak. I agree.