War on drugs is lost?, Finally a sensible opinion. Options

[katalyst]

Australians are prepared to accept, people driving under the influence of alcohol. Albeit under .05 or .08.

At some level of stonedness, the level of impairment, is equal to to that level of alcohol inebriation under .05-.08.

I call, fucking hypocritical double standards.

I don't know what the detection method has to do with what I said.

But yes, you're right, we as a society have determined that a certain BAC level is not enough to impair judgement and reflexes enough to make driving dangerous.

My uneducated guess is that the same principle could be applied to THC. Right now they simply detect the presence or absence of the drug, but I reckon that in a legal-weed world, a way to quickly measure the "level of affected-ness" would be on the cards.

This doesn't change the fact that when you're under the influence of a substance, you can't effectively judge how badly you're affected, which goes back to the virus scan analogy. It's exactly what tantryl is saying.

Sorry, yeah. See my modified post.

[SquallStrife]

Sorry, yeah. See my modified post.

No wuckas, god knows how many times I've done that! :)

[Hlass]

Once again, you're just making stuff up. Your perception of the high changes. It's physiological impact barely changes. The impact on reaction time and decision process is there regardless of whether you feel high.

Are you saying this from experience?

That chart seemed pretty dodgy.
For starter Aphetmines can be broken down into a couple of diffrent groups, and seems to be well misplaced in that graph.

Methylamphetmine in cyrstal form is near to herion addiction.

Also you have to be careful with such charts, because if we talk about addiction and population combined we know tobacco is the most addictive and hardest to withdraw from..... but the reason it appears so additive as it is so mild once you consider all the other drugs. ..........otherwise coffee and tea would be there...

But as for most severe pysical withdraw Opiates are most easily the highest.

Meth is also a pyhsical addiction, but its mental addiction is huge.... people simply cant function with out it once they start trying to remove those massive lows you get after its use with more Meth.

Tobacco isn't "the hardest to withdraw from", or if it is it doesn't matter, millions have done it

Oh, so you've smoked for several years and quit before have you?

Why would that matter? What I said is still correct, exsmokers are all over the place, which is great news.

[AccessDenied]

Issue with marijuana is measuring the dose. I have no problems with people using marijuana, but not around me. The smell makes me want to retch. (But that's my problem.)

However, the dose is the main issue. From 1 joint to the next you have no idea how many mg of THC you'll be getting. It can vary significantly from batch to batch.

The effects of ONE marijuana cigarette can impair a person 24 hrs later.
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1108.pdf
An Australian aviation study and report on the effects of marijuana and flight.

A quick snip from the report.
-----------------------
The results of this experiment indicated that there were significant effects on pilot performance
24 hours after smoking a single marijuana cigarette. Overall, the pilots demonstrated much
more difficulty in aligning with and landing on the runway after 􀀀 D9-THC exposure. There were
increases in the number and size of aileron changes, the size of elevator changes and the degree
of vertical and lateral deviation from the required flightpath during the approach to land. At
24 hours post-marijuana, the lateral deviation on approach to land was almost twice that of the
pre-marijuana test. There was also a significant increase in the distance from the centre of the
runway on touchdown. Indeed, one pilot 24 hours after smoking the marijuana landed off the
runway entirely.More worrying, perhaps, was their finding that the pilots were not aware of any
impairment of their flying performance at 24 hours after marijuana use.
-----------------

Things to note:
1) The people in the test were all confirmed marijuana users (so not someone that has never tried before)
2) 1 test pre marijuana cigarette and 1 test 24 hrs after marijuana cigarette.
3) All pilots reported that they did not feel impaired 24 hrs later.

-------------------

If we legalize, I certainly hope that before it rolls out we have reliable methods for testing people for impairment due to marijuana (THC Concentration test?), and controlled dose marijuana cigarettes (much like the 'standard drinks' on your alcohol).

Further, I hope that it is legislated that it's for use in private only. Reason is simple. Exhaled smoke can impair others. Just because you're not driving, doesn't mean the person near you won't be driving or operating heavy machinery (or flying a plane) later. This is all about risk reduction.

AD

Just my 2c

[NukeJockey]

Once again, you're just making stuff up. Your perception of the high changes. It's physiological impact barely changes. The impact on reaction time and decision process is there regardless of whether you feel high.

Are you saying this from experience?

That chart seemed pretty dodgy.
For starter Aphetmines can be broken down into a couple of diffrent groups, and seems to be well misplaced in that graph.

Methylamphetmine in cyrstal form is near to herion addiction.

Also you have to be careful with such charts, because if we talk about addiction and population combined we know tobacco is the most addictive and hardest to withdraw from..... but the reason it appears so additive as it is so mild once you consider all the other drugs. ..........otherwise coffee and tea would be there...

But as for most severe pysical withdraw Opiates are most easily the highest.

Meth is also a pyhsical addiction, but its mental addiction is huge.... people simply cant function with out it once they start trying to remove those massive lows you get after its use with more Meth.

Tobacco isn't "the hardest to withdraw from", or if it is it doesn't matter, millions have done it

Oh, so you've smoked for several years and quit before have you?

Why would that matter? What I said is still correct, exsmokers are all over the place, which is great news.

So?

If Drugs like Heroine and Cocaine were LEGAL like nicotine, you would probably find they have had lots of users who have quit as well.

It doesn't mean that just because millions have quit, that an individual is going to be able to quit as easily or even want to quit in the first place.

More to the point, it doesn't make it the easiest or the hardest drug to quit from.

You can read statistics as much as you want, but at the end of the day they're just numbers and they WILL NEVER represent people at an individual level, just because stats say that x% of drivers under the influence of marijuana crash, doesn't mean that everyone is prone to the same thing, drugs affect different people differently. You only need to look at the effects of alcohol on some people compared to others to see that statement hold true. Marijuana and Nicotine are exactly the same. Marijuana more so because regular users will quite quickly build up an immunity to it meaning their intake needs to become more and more just for it to affect them and for their body to accept it as well.

Unless you have either been a cigarette smoker or a marijuana smoker (And I mean more than once a week at a party) then you can never truly understand just what its like to be under the effects of those drugs for prolonged periods.

[Hlass]

Unfortunately if we are going to make policy it can't be "individual". And if someone is fine to drive while stoned that’s great but most people aren’t. With something this important I am fine with having one law for all. Don’t drive stoned and you run no risk at all.

And dude you may object to "statistics" but I think there is nothing wrong with letting people know that there are now more ex-smokers in Australia than smokers. This is a good positive message, not warnings about how bad it is to give up and how it is the hardest thing you will ever do etc. If someone thinks that Tobacco is "the hardest to withdraw from" try withdrawing from Alcohol or any drug with a significant physical component of withdrawal. And people do get off all sorts of substances. I know plenty of ex heroin users and AA is full of ex drinkers. What is great news is the high success rate of smokers and we should promote that.

Why give only the negative "personal" experiences when the number of people who smoked in Australia exceed those that still do. Clearly it wasn't the worst thing in the world to give up for these people, they did it. And so can anyone.

This post has been edited by Hlass: Apr 4 2012, 03:14 PM

[NukeJockey]

My point actually had nothing to do with a policy on legalising cannabis or not, it was to point out that your flat out denials that ANYONE could drive while stoned, much like the views tantryl expressed, were misguided if based purely on what scientists and research say.

I completely agree that if it was to be legalised that it would obviously need to be policed the same as alcohol, I don't have an issue with that at all and its the only thing that makes sense, AD's post on the matter a few posts up is the only thing that makes sense for legalised weed.

I also have nothing against you promoting the success rate of quitters in Australia, however I felt that the way you just brush it off as being easier than any other drug was not entirely correct, due to people being individuals.

[p0is0n]

Nobody here is trying to argue you should be allowed to smoke and drive, or that it is even ethically okay to do so. I have said it already, but I agree the detection/punishment should be in line with current drink driving strategies. I think we have managed to determine that as drugs effect everyone differently, a little unlike alcohol, which has a more uniform effect, different detection methods would be required.

For me personally, when I was smoking, I spent most of that time gaming very competitively (online) for hours at a time, not just spacing out. Like an athlete is more physically fit for their training, playing those kind of games intensely for hours a day gives your brain a good workout. For me, driving is almost like playing a game, and we are using most of the same skills to do either, watch and react, hence why I don't feel at any disadvantage behind the wheel. There are obvious levels of intoxication and its easy to tell if I am too stoned or not, for me, maybe not for everyone.

If as AD has pointed out, that the effects do last up to and beyond 24 hours, even in seasoned smokers, then I spent entire years of my life in such altered state, almost every single time I've driven, I must have been stoned, even the day I passed my driving test, first and only time. Taking this into consideration, you can see how I am of the strong opinion that not everyone can be judged based on the same standard and only goes to further the point we need a test that can measure level of impairment, and not level of intoxication.

Lastly, think of how much support most people will get trying to give up ciggys (not so much booze, most people think your odd for NOT drinking) there are patches, gums, tv commercials, phone hot lines, you name it. If you're trying to quit heroin or meth on the other hand, you've much less resources to help. Even with all the extra support available, it may be just as hard or harder to deal with tobacco withdrawal as anything else as it is just so readily available, and everywhere you look, you can probably find someone smoking a ciggy still.

This post has been edited by p0is0n: Apr 4 2012, 03:42 PM

[Hlass]

NukeJockey..
Easier as you say is a relative term and not a particularly useful one. But a drug which has no physical component in withdrawal for most people, why wouldn't you say that is "easier" to quit than a drug whose withdrawal effects can kill you?

And since that drug kills more people than all the others combined why not promote the ease instead of making people frightened to try and quit with horror stories of extreme difficulty?

If as AD has pointed out, that the effects do last up to and beyond 24 hours, even in seasoned smokers, then I spent entire years of my life in such altered state, and every single time I drive, I must be stoned. Taking this into consideration, you can see how I am of the strong opinion that not everyone can be judged based on the same standard and only goes to further the point we need a test that can measure level of impairment, and not level of intoxication.

Or we could expect people to take personal responsibilty for their drug use and not drive while stoned.
Alcohol effects different people differently too. But we don't and shouldn't take that into consideration. We have a level and it's up to the drinker to not get behind the wheel. Why give weed a free ride?

This post has been edited by Hlass: Apr 4 2012, 03:40 PM

[p0is0n]

Or we could expect people to take personal responsibilty for their drug use and not drive while stoned.
Alcohol effects different people differently too. But we don't and shouldn't take that into consideration. We have a level and it's up to the drinker to not get behind the wheel. Why give weed a free ride?

Think you need your eyes checked.

Nobody here is trying to argue you should be allowed to smoke and drive, or that it is even ethically okay to do so. I have said it already, but I agree the detection/punishment should be in line with current drink driving strategies. I think we have managed to determine that as drugs effect everyone differently, a little unlike alcohol, which has a more uniform effect, different detection methods would be required.

[katalyst]

@AccessDenied

Interesting study there. My first reaction to it is, credulousness. If they are in fact regular smokers, maybe they are experiencing some withdrawal, if not allowed to have any for 24 hours. Which is skewing the results.

But I'm also prepared to accept that the effects of driving, with long term, heavy smokers maybe far more than what is believed.


Maybe I should point out that. Having used a lot of drugs, to one degree or another. I think, ALL drugs are just a bad idea. Pure and simple.

Having said that, and being a non pot smoker these days. I would much prefer to see a pot smoking culture, to the cigarettes and alcohol one, we exist in.


There was a postcard of a study, floating around Melb Uni a while back, entitled "spiders on drugs". It showed the results of a study, of spiders webs being spun, while under the influence, of a range of different drugs. Including meth-amphetamines, heroine, cannabis, LSD, nicotine and caffeine.

By far the dodgiest, most fucked up web, was the caffeine. Maybe spiders have different reactions to drugs, than humans. But I found it interesting, non the less.

[Ezkaton]

Katalyst; this has been floating around since the late '90s, early '00s.
I remember seeing it in 2000/2001.

http://www.trinity.edu/jdunn/spiderdrugs.htm

The caffiene web is indeed fucked.
The webs spun on psychedelics are the best (non-standard) webs.

I think, ALL drugs are just a bad idea. Pure and simple.

To some extent, yes.
But arguably, even sugar is bad for us and it's in most things we eat. :p

I think most things are fine in moderation.

Aside from hard, highly addictive drugs like crack/herion, etc.

But really, I am of the opinion that; as long as we're enjoying ourselves and aren't putting others at harm or risk of harm, and aren't stealing to fuel your habits and remain a productive member of society... then do with yourself what you please.

This post has been edited by Ezkaton: Apr 4 2012, 04:55 PM

[chrisg]

Hmm,

Very interesting AD, sort of recall that study, never ever even drank much when flying unless I had a decent sized leave pass, then it could become a bit dangerous, especially around my German mates :)

I don't really understand why we do not have consistent law in Australia. Very occasionally I watch that show, RBT, in the East they seem to test for both alcohol and drugs, here in WA, as far as I know, it's just alcohol. Then again I trust breathalyzers about as much as I trust politicians - you do realise it was invented by Smith &Wesson, somewhat better known for occasionally good handguns....

Cheers

[p0is0n]

Katalyst; this has been floating around since the late '90s, early '00s.
I remember seeing it in 2000/2001.

http://www.trinity.edu/jdunn/spiderdrugs.htm

The caffiene web is indeed fucked.
The webs spun on psychedelics are the best (non-standard) webs.

Wow that is cool, never seen it before. Holy shit, the spider was able to make a web like that on LSD, extremely impressed. I got very creative once on LSD and started writing and illustrating something.. who the fuck knows what. A few days later I found it anyway, remembered what I was trying to do but well.. lets just say there wasn't much in the way of legible writing or illustration in that notebook, lol. Literally looked like something a "slow" first grader might produce in 2 minutes.

I don't really understand why we do not have consistent law in Australia. Very occasionally I watch that show, RBT, in the East they seem to test for both alcohol and drugs, here in WA, as far as I know, it's just alcohol. Then again I trust breathalyzers about as much as I trust politicians - you do realise it was invented by Smith &Wesson, somewhat better known for occasionally good handguns....

WA Police also have tongue swabs now, which will detect the presence of drugs. They don't use it very often though, unless your obviously f*cked up. Mostly they just breathalyse you and send you along if your 0.0%. They were introduced around the same time they lowered the criminal amount of pot to 10grams.

This post has been edited by p0is0n: Apr 4 2012, 05:08 PM

[NukeJockey]

lol, I like this video best :P

[p0is0n]

haha Nuke - took me about 1 minute in to realise that it wasn't for serious.

This post has been edited by p0is0n: Apr 4 2012, 05:11 PM

[Ezkaton]

I got very creative once on LSD and started writing and illustrating something.. who the fuck knows what. A few days later I found it anyway, remembered what I was trying to do but well.. lets just say there wasn't much in the way of legible writing or illustration in that notebook, lol. Literally looked like something a "slow" first grader might produce in 2 minutes.

Hahaha.

An LSD-induced drawing of mine:
Nothing too complex or incoherent... just a bit odd I suppose.

[p0is0n]

Very cool Ezkaton, I actually like it, very fitting. I've never been much of an artist myself.

Reminds me of this: http://www.cowboybooks.com.au/html/acidtrip1.html
At best, I am like #4 or #5 haha.

[katalyst]

I got very creative once on LSD and started writing and illustrating something.. who the fuck knows what. A few days later I found it anyway, remembered what I was trying to do but well.. lets just say there wasn't much in the way of legible writing or illustration in that notebook, lol. Literally looked like something a "slow" first grader might produce in 2 minutes.

Hahaha.

An LSD-induced drawing of mine:
Nothing too complex or incoherent... just a bit odd I suppose.

Major LOL. I don't wonna know what was going through you head at that time. :)

Some of the best and worst times of my life was on mushie's and acid. But I figure I got what I needed out of them, and the jig is now up.

I see the North and South American use of psychedelics (and old school Australian Aboriginal I hear), as the correct way to use em. When completely lost in life, and searching for the correct path. Either on your own, in a forest or desert. Or with a trusted and knowledgeable master who can keep you in check.

So... many... stories... to... tell. Hard... to... hold... back.

Edit: Lol. I just remembered. I still have peyote growing in the back yard I planted 5 years ago. Just in case.

This post has been edited by katalyst: Apr 4 2012, 05:39 PM

[p0is0n]

I agree with that katalyst, the best use is spiritual. I've only indulged around 10 times, sometimes in combination with pot and pills (more recreational than spiritual - but still just at home) and other times just to disappear for a weekend alone, usually come out the other side feeling new, in some way.

Let me know if you ever need some help finishing off the peyote :)

This post has been edited by p0is0n: Apr 4 2012, 05:42 PM