This is a social question that I've been thinking about for a while now, and I figured I'd run it by you.

There's a guy, who for the purposes of this exercise will be named John. John is a member of a fairly large group of friends, with people often joining and leaving that group over time. John's been in this group of friends for years, and has had a lot of really interesting talks with people, had a barrel of fun, and made some really great friends who he really respects.

However, recently John's become a little more prominent and noticeable in his group of friends, which has caused him to stand out a bit. A couple of people in this group are, for various reasons, not exactly the nicest of people and have seen John as a bit of an 'easy target', and often bait John and use veiled attacks and insults to get on his nerves. These range from put-downs and talking to him as if he were 'beneath' them, to manipulating his words and situations and deliberately targeting 'sore' spots that are more likely to hurt John. The reasons vary- in some cases it's to gain popularity and a reputation, in other cases it's because they're straight up nasty pieces of work.

John hasn't done anything to deserve this behaviour. He's even tried to reason with these people and tried to find out what their issue is, to no avail. There are a number of people in this group of friends who are more 'respected' than the others, and whose words people will listen to. John has approached them to ask for help, but they either claim there's nothing they can do or dance around the topic. The antagonists know this, and use it to their advantage to lay the boot in as much as possible- to the point where other people are starting to see John as an 'easy target' and jump in.

John is now seriously considering abandoning that group of friends. While he likes the vast majority of them and has a lot of fun with them, the manipulation, negativity and outright thuggery of the antagonists is starting to get to him and is starting to make him not really want to hang around this group any more, and he's given up on getting any assistance from the influential friends, which makes him feel a less valued member of the group. John also has a lot going on in his life right now and really does not need any more negativity and stress than necessary. John is able to catch up with the vast majority of the friends he likes elsewhere, but he does not want to leave the group as he has fun with the group. But right now he's starting to not really see much choice.

What would you do if you were John?

I'd take a breather for a while, personally.

If you let the thugs know they are bothering you, they will continue with their trolling shit... ignore them and their cronies.

People treat you like shit, don't deal with them.

Simple as that.

I'd tell them to learn some respect and STFU. If they treat it as a joke, then they're not friends. Once they realise 'John' is gone, they'll target someone else (most likely the other respectable peeps). You'll find they'll soon part too, leaving the idiots to mingle with themselves.

Or it'd just turn to shit. Either way, if John isn't happy, there's no reason to stay.

I'd tell John to learn from the lesson and move on.

Fuck 'em off!

I'd tell them i don't like the way they're treating me and to back off.

and if they didn't then i'd get back at them worse...

Manta & Atomic?

If so, this :

Tell them to shut there filthy whore mouth.

Works for me.

Dear John,

HTFU!

Is this a leaving thread, Manta?

(I hope not, cuz I love you to death).

John doesn't want to abandon his group of friends, but right now John feels his back's against the wall and he's kinda had enough.

It's not uncommon for a social dynamic to stagnate. It's a bit like work. It will all seem exciting and new to begin with, but it doesn't take long before it feels familiar and is business as usual, from there, it doesn't take a lot for small annoyances to get on your nerves.

If one feels they're at a point where they're simply not enjoying a social setting, then they should honestly ask themselves why they're putting up with it if they're not having fun any more. At the end of the day, how you feel and deal with that social dynamic is down to you. Do you let it get to you, or do you just brush it off?

If it really is getting to you, it's best to take a little break for a while to regain some head space and develop a more positive outlook.

I've taken the odd break from here myself. Not because people are giving me the shits, but because I find myself not enjoying the experience and my replies or responses start becoming more negative and less constructive.

You're ultimately the master of your own experiences. I know people who've been dealt all the shitty cards in life and constantly get shit shoveled their way, but they still manage to smile and have fun.

*Puts hand up to this.* It sums up my life completely.

Tell John that life is for living, not re-living.

Tell John to remember the tale about Morganna.
The only way she had any control was if people noticed and paid attention to her.
Once the people realised that it was they themselves, feeding her, they stopped. Not mentioning her name or deeds
her "power" and then her presence withered and just fell away.Her negative presence simply vanished.
A wee bit fanciful perhaps . but can be applied to the here and now

John has tried reason, compromise and to a certain extent patience.
the negative people in John's group need to be literally ignored.

HTFU has many ways of being,but will only come from within. For John to leave his group of friends will
only IMO delay the process. John needs to deal with this . He has put his back to the wall, and can just step
forward and continue from there.

greycat can see where John is coming from, and thinks part of the reason those antagonists get away with their hassling is that John is nice and tries to reason with them. Ignoring people who hassle you really is the most effective way to make them shut up.

Some options:
1. Reduce the frequency of contact with this group - hopefully those individuals will see what they are missing and change
2. Leave the group - life is too short to cop shit
3. Harden up and argue back - don't like this, as I wouldn't want to stoop down to their level.
3. Do nothing, hope things will change for the better, but chances are it wont

John needs to ask himself if the people in question are actually his friends, and if their opinion actually means a damn thing to him once he realises some are not. Then realise that the opinions of the "non-friends" don't matter anyway, so just ignore them. Works fine for me. I prefer to know where i stand with folk, and once i do, they can either be friendly, or be ignored/fuck off. Their choice. And his. They don't "have to" associate with each other, or pay any attention to the other. It's life, make of it what you will.

Easy. Follow my step-by-step guide to enlightenment.

First, John tells everyone he's going away for a while.
A week later, John comes back, with a mostache, and calls himself Igor.
Pretty soon, he gets sussed by someone in the group, and everyone soon learns the truth.

Rinse and repeat.

Personally, I'd either take a breather, for real, for a while. or simply log in invisible, deal with PMs, and just lurk for a while.

It's a bit early to suggest that this thread will end in a group hug.... right ?

sooo....

How old is John. Can he wear beer goggles .... ? You know where im going with this.

With bulllying or victimisation, if it's sanctioned or ignored by the powers that be (most likely because it's not bad enough that they can really do anything, or they just can't see it, or they have personal reasons not to get involved) then the victim has to make the choices and take action for themselves.

1) continue to cop it and react the same way as always = continue to feel miserable
2) say something to the bullies - however the bullies *will* react and it may make it worse. as a one of time action this seems a bit of a lose.
3) not react the same way as they used to = don't be a victim. sometimes taking time away can help clear the mind so to make decisions on "when this happens I will do this instead of the same old that". this is hard to do.
4) leave. but a lot of time has been invested in this could be a waste.
5) try and co-opt the powers that be. tricky if they don't see things your way and refuse to act.

for me I am choosing to use the time to grow and develop - I don't really have a choice as it's tied up to the necessities in life so option 3 is it. John and this group has more freedom perhaps.

life throws us tests. tests make us grow. in a way they are gifts. choosing to take the test and get as much out of it as you can seems a good way to go. to refuse the test is to refuse the gift. which can be a loss.

unlikely. in fact the opposite.

because of this i am scared to publicly support "John".

One suggestion: http://alienlovespredator.com/2009/05/19/raze-the-roof/ :P

I think John should consider what his personal code of ethics, his personal mantra, for dealing with others is?

I think he should then crystallise that in his mind. Now... ask himself why should anybody else abide by the same rules he constrains himself by? Why should I follow his rules? Why should the person serving him in a shop or waiting at the bus stop beside his follow his rules?

I'm sure we can come up with a dozen reasons without taking the time to think - it's respectful, it's utilitarian, it's nice, it's helpful; whatever reasons John has experienced and lived, he has come to the conclusions he now carries with him. They work for him. The problem comes when his ego gets in the way and he tries to apply his guidelines to someone else in the form of expectations. We all do it sometimes :-)

How is it fair for one to expect others to follow one's guidelines? How is that even practical, or feasible? For example, how does John expect someone he's never met to be able to conform to his expectations on first meeting? Not to mention, it's a touch arrogant, wouldn't you say? Who is to say his guidelines, his mantra or personal ethics are so great? What if they're crap and he doesn't know it yet? :-)

Reframe. What would happen if he changed the name of what he considers his "personal code of conduct" to be "a set of expectations"? Hold onto that for a sec...

As I've said dozens of times, anger and frustration result from a violation of the expectancy set. So he's walking around in his little JohnBubble, safe in his expectations for how he'd like to deal with the world, and how he'd like the world to deal with him. When those expectations invariably get trampled on (as they will do), it's understandable and natural for him to feel upset, angry and/or frustrated. It's also misplaced. I wonder if John knows where I'm going with this Reframe thing yet? Oh, and I would hope he wouldn't sit there and try to tell me that Somebody Else has "made" him feel anything. If someone saying something triggers feelings of anger and frustration in him, it's his responsibility to do some self-examination and find out why he feels that way. This is what I mean when I say it's about personal responsibility.

So for all his wonderings, complaining, hurt, pain and fear over how he's being dealt with... perhaps it's time for him to have a good, long hard look at himself and take some personal responsibility for his own decisions. After all, we are our own most powerful allies in this whole Life thing; don't fuck that up by never spending the time to get to know ourselves :-)

Note there's a difference between "fault" and "responsibility." Fault implies blame, and blame implies intent. I'm not saying anything in particular is John's fault, so don't try and wriggle past my words :-p To take responsibility, in this instance, would be to acknowledge he has a part to play in the whole situation. And his part is to own his own power, and to accept what that means.

If John were to walk away, I would hope he would at least think about some of the things I've said while he's on hiatus. To be honest, I think John has a lot of growing up to do. I hope he gives himself the time and space in which to do so.

edit: tense

You follow the Sharks?

Its all going to be OK John, just breathe! Wusaaah!! Wusaaah!!

John is not a robot, EW.

I'm sure John would love to live in this fantasy world where people can decide whether or not they want to have their feelings hurt or not and where people don't have to make hard decisions they don't want to make. But John does not live there.

Try and understand why the friends who are your friends, are not being there for you, and to what extent they are your friends.

The people giving you shit don't sound like friends at all, so don't treat them as such.

This. Which I already said in many more words. Fuck em, they're not worth it. Focus on what you have, and move on from there.

Elven: Where was it said that John expected others to conform to his own guidelines? Manta didn't say anything about that.

Saying that people should not place expectations on others is also an expectation.

Besides, accepting that the worst possible outcome may happen in any situation doesn't make that outcome less annoying.

True. All John wants is for these guys to stop taking shots at him- which they are deliberately doing.

I am really surprised EW wrote what she did. I'm guessing there is background to this I don't know about.

Manta, she's right in the idea that no one can *make* John feel anything. Although it's hard not to feel awful when someone says "you're a useless loser" and that someone is a respected person of the community, John can chose whether or not to take on board what they are saying about him, or to set it aside and decide that it's not a true representation of himself. Hard to do. And to live above and beyond those comments.

And there are times and seasons. This is a season of winter for John and for me. It will pass. There will be another spring again.

I would encourage John to use this time. Remind John that there is bigger and better things within and beyond and in the future and to believe and act on these. Not to get bogged down with petty, mosquito biting, things.

It is hard to do though.

If John was 6 years old, I would accept this statement and comfort him.

Tell john to ignore those being pains, and get on with his shit.

I'm wondering this too.

hmmm... perhaps i missed something in this thread, so perhaps someone can set me straight ?

is someone here john ?
is this the social group ?

or am i far from reality and haven't got a clue ?

really, i like a good hypothetical as much as the next viewer, but sorry, you're not geoffrey robertson and i'm confused

OK,

Basically, that little situation there was an analogy of what's currently been going through my mind the last couple of days.

My view of atomic has drastically changed in the last several months, due to a couple of people here basically deciding to give me a hard time whenever they can- doing pretty much what I described there in John's situation. Between belittling comments, vague insults and attempts to wind me up, and deliberate grinding of sore spots, they've made things rather miserable for me here. I've honestly lost count of the amount of times I've had to RTM something only to either be ignored or to be patronised by someone who obviously thinks I'm an idiot, putting it down to 'interpretation' and insinuating that it's my own fault that I get offended or hurt by things that are said. In my opinion, it's an excuse because people just have to play the nice mod or have to let their friends off instead of showing some backbone and doing their job. Or they're too busy hunting 'stupid post' or 'stupid people'. Don't get me wrong, the mods do a good job most of the time, but they have failed woefully when it comes to trolls in my book.

I haven't mastered this superhuman ability to turn off my feelings or to magically harden the fuck up, so I don't really have many other options. People know they can get away with belittling me, and the mods are going to turn a blind eye, so I've decided that my atomic experience is no longer worth sticking around for. In other words, I'm walking away, and I intend to stay away for quite some time.

It's a shame, because I know for a fact that to a man, the antagonists are cowards who I've met face to face and who have never had the spine to repeat anything like that to my face. I suppose it's a lot easier to play a big man while hiding behind a keyboard. And I have absolutely no doubt that after I post this message, they'll swarm in putting the boots in. They're welcome to. Cause quite frankly, I'm done with them and I'm done with this. Atomic is becoming something that I don't like- it's become elitist, it's become about egos, and it's quite frankly something that's no longer worth the pain and suffering.

Au revoir, atomic.

Bye Manta. :(

I will support you in your decision Manta, and I know you didn't make the decision lightly. Go with peace, and take care of you :)

Cya on facebook :P

+1

hope the world out there is more accommodating

For God's sake, don't assume people are deliberately trying to bring you down. And don't refer to hierarchies. By doing so you lower yourself before you even give others the chance to.

Look at your own level of responsibility. If you choose to involve yourself and expect a rapport of like and respect then you are responsible to consider what impression you leave on others; how you are seen by them.

You are a respectable, accepted member of this group. Put your explanatory prejudices aside and choose not to indulge your emotional responses. Keep an open mind and give yourself and others credit, even if you can't explain a reason to initially. Reacting on impulse and concocting notions that only consider others as responsible for what you feel is unreasonable. You will turn you into a bitter, lonely person who uses stupid reasoning for their pathetic, uninteresting circumstance like others have become.

You are better than that.

Does this sort of thing happen much around here ? 0_o

FFS. I'm stumped. Been sitting here with my hand on this bloody keyboard.

there's a quote from a book on gestalt therapy that springs to my mind : "who shat in my trousers ?"

i don't even know you, but being influenced by others' opinions of you is a superhighway to misery unless you have the prescience to filter this information and ignore people you don't respect

fwiw, everyone's opinion is just that, not fact

any decision you make about yourself based on other people's notions is pretty pointless

i hope you find some satisfaction out there, but bear in mind the rest of the world won't change much by deleting a subscription

Some folk just enjoy baiting and being tards, and find some to be easier targets than others. None of this has been surprising.

I dont know you Manta but I have to agree with Gir. The thing is, I was quite like you some time ago and trust me when I tell you I know what you are going through. However, the fact still remains that if YOU allow things to get to you they will. We arent saying that you shouldnt be feeling-less (not a word i know) or to change who you are but merely not to give credibility to those who are trying to bring you down. HTFU is probably the wrong way to say it but it does get the point across. Question is this, are you going to allow a few idiots to take you away from the majority of the people whom you respect or are you going to just let it go and move on? If this was me a few years ago, Id just be up in arms about it and try to defend myself usually without much success and then Id brood on it and become a very angry person. That didnt suit me though. I can go on about this but ill leave you with a quote. "Sticks and stones may hurt my bones but words will never hurt me." So unless they are beating you up physically then you have nothing to worry about.

Remember the olden days when there was an 'I'm leaving' thread every week?

He shouldn't do what others tell him to do, but life is about an interaction of experiences with other understandings. It is the only way we can truly assess ourselves without bias, by seeing what is seen by others.

It also helps us come to appreciate others, and how to deal with experiences, or at least gain foresight into the choices we make in what we do with ourselves.

Manta should consider this more. He'd really benefit from it. He's strong and sensible enough to not let himself be abused by any potential manipulation.

IM LEAVING LP, and you made me do it :P

Hmm.

What would James Van Der Beek do? ;D

sometimes in the chaos its hard to tell the ratio of affectionate ribbing to the poison. some people probably need to take the proverbial "long hard look at themselves". the fact that some or all of those people won't, probably won't bother John all that much when he comes back from his break.