So what's your opinion on guys (or gals) riding their motorbikes up center of stationary rows of traffic to get to the front?

As someone who's ridden motorbikes in the past I'd say more power to them.

But couple of mornings ago I'm in my car on the inside lane in pole position waiting for the lights to change when theres a big bang on my left.

I looked over and saw a bike rider had hit my left door mirror with his handle bar which flung him wobbling extremely badly into the intersection. How he managed to not fall off I don't know, but as luck would have it the lights had turned green at that moment so there were no other cars in the intersection otherwise pretty good chance he'd have been cleaned up.

So the guy gains control of his bike and I'm pretty pissed off as you can imagine and drive up behind him flashing lights indicating to pull over. But he doesn't and guns it off the road and onto the on ramp of an intersecting main road. He wasn't really on a very powerful bike so I took off after him and proceeded to flash and hang on the horn till he ended up pulling over maybe 200 m down the road. It was heading into peak morning traffic so it wasn't really a chase so to speak... (so no speeding etc if you're thinking!)

I got out and checked for damage and to my suprise there was only just the tiniest nick in the mirror because it had rotated on it's hinge which absorbed the impact.

So other than that I pretty much told the guy to take it easy could have killed himself. Particularly as roads are wet etc etc. He made up a story saying he wasn't trying to get away from me was just trying to find a good spot to stop which we both knew was crap.

Then the next day another rider did the same thing... shot up the middle and barely missed my mirror then shot through the green light just as I'm accelerating. So in effect he's riding up center of traffic which was immediately merging from two lanes to one on the other side of the intersection!

I'm of mixed thoughts about it now. I'm not sure what the actual law is regarding this activity, but I think more riders have enough risks on the road to deal with without adding the risk of damaging cars, or getting run over because they can't navigate to the front in time.

Anyone else have a take on this?

Pack of cunts. Can't fucking stand it.

I often wish a firey death against a concrete barrier upon them.

In Victoria it's illegal to lane split when the traffic is moving. But it's legal to move to the front when the traffic is stationary.

But whether riders actually follow this or not is another thing.


I think it's more about the rider misjudging the space they are trying to get through or misjudging their riding skill.

I'm pretty certain the legality of it differs from state to state. As an ex-motorbike rider myself, I can see how appealing it is, but I personally don't agree with it and never did it. Too dangerous imo, for all involved.

Pretty sure it's illegal here in QLD too, but much as it probably annoys everyone, we kinda expect it.

It's illegal to overtake on the shoulder too, and that's bloody dangerous.

I don't mind if there is plenty of room and traffic is stationary, but riders weaving in and out of moving traffic, or not knowing when to stop by misjudging the light sequence change is extremely dangerous. I've had bike riders pull in front of me at a set of lights, only to putter off at 40km/h also, that really pisses me off. They are in enough of a rush to cut traffic at lights, yet obviously not in enough of a rush to drive remotely close to the speed limit.

I think it largely comes down to the person on the bike. Some people ride safely and carefully when the situation calls for it, and others just ride like a complete fucking dick all of the time. If I was a more sadistic person I would find comfort in the knowledge they won't be on the road very long, but it's hard to be so cold.

I've been the passenger on a bike a couple of times, and only rode a handful of others (had my L plates for a while but didn't enjoy bikes that much), but when I did ride I didn't ride up the middle lane unless the lights had only just turned red, and I could spot a large gap to occupy.

Well done on keeping your cool Czerney, if some prick hit my car I'd be pretty upset, even if there wasn't much damage. If he sped off from me.... well, I'd probably have had a more heated conversation with him than you did. I also would have taken down his number plate and lodged and insurance claim. A prick like that deserves a bump up in his premium expenses.

I quickly memorised his number plate first thing I did but I guess once I saw there was no damage I cooled down a bit.

I guess I'm not a big one for having confrontations where I can avoid it. I was extremely angry mostly because he didn't pull over straight away but in the back of my mind I was thinking this guy hasn't got long to live.

I didn't add it to the OP but he never apologized (although I understand that due to insurance implications to admitting fault) but he made excuses about how the bike has been handling crap lately and needs a bit of work done.... as if it was a legitimate excuse rather than realising that it made his actions even more stupid!

Sadly Darwins targetting system is off, and it's not the retard that gets killed it's an innocent.

just weld some blades horizontally on your wheels... that will sort them out :S

I've done it a couple of rare times when the cap was wide enough, but it's still a big risk.

Generally I don't do it, it's illegal here, and it is dangerous. Most riders here seem to completely ignore it though.

Personally I can't help but side with car drivers on the issue as there's too much risk of damage to ones car.

It doesn't impact you unless they impact you. Get over it you bunch of whingers.

It works out safer for the riders because they dont have to worry about getting squished into the back of a car by someone who doesn't see them as they sit behind traffic. They take off faster than anyone else so it doesn't delay you at all, and as bike rider myself I always wave to the little kids who like seeing a bike next to their window.

If it is as safe as you say, then why don't they make it legal?

Wait, are you saying it's not safe because it's illegal? I don't know why it's not "legal", it just seems like common sense and if done properly and carefully then there's no problem.

This is something that motorcycling groups and the public have been bickering about for ages. There are lots of arguments for and against it, some good and some not so good. As a motorcyclist myself I feel that based on my riding ability, splitting through stopped traffic is not a problem (provided there is ample space) but as soon as the cars start moving it becomes too dangerous. The actual legalities of lane splitting aren't very black and white for the different states with some saying that it is legal to lane split, but illegal to pass on the left or to be next to a vehicle in the same lane so it is basically up to the police/court to determine if a motorcyclist is actually in the wrong. I personally chose to lane split for 3 reasons; to save time (this was the main reason, I'm not going to pretend like it wasn't), to get away from terrible drives running up my ass and also because my particular bike had a tendency to overheat when not moving. I think that the laws should be made more clear so it either is or is not legal, but have generally found that bicycles are a greater hazard than motorcycles in peak traffic (bring on the flaming lol). If you want to participate in traffic than you should either obey all of the road rules all the time or act as a pedestrian all of the time, not just when it suits you. As previously mentioned, there's not much more annoying than having someone cut in front of you only to go extremely slow. I would never ride a bicycle in traffic having seen how close some stupid drivers think is safe to pass.

Oh and hi everyone, been reading these forums since about 2004 but never actually joined, until I read this thread that is...

It makes sense from the fact that they can move off from the lights faster than the other vehicles.

It can be bloody dangerous for them though if the misjudge the gap, I have seen one clip a car and end up under a bus which they were damn lucky with that.

The one that pisses me off is bike (bicycle) riders heading to the front of the queue then holding up all of the traffic as they ever so slowly get up to speed.

As with most driving it all comes down to a bit of common sense. Generally if you ride (or drive) with the attitude that whatever happens to me is my fault you can't go wrong. That means if you put yourself in a situation where some d*&khead cuts you off and you can't stop in time, you were going to fast. It also means if you decide to filter and hit a cars mirror because you were going to fast or couldn't control your bike, you deserve to be abused.

check.I call bullshit. Do you have any stats to support this? Even if a driver doesn't see the bike they will see the car in front. As they get closer the bike will become obvious. If you have any supporting evidence I'd be interested in seeing it

I'm glad you think waving at little kids gives you the right to ride between lanes of traffic ;P

Not quite what I was looking for but close enough

Motorcycles at Intersections:
http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/rsc/ 1993cycle/ch3.htm

“Nearly 80% of urban intersection two vehicle motorcycle collisions occur at signalised intersections. In 75% of these crashes the motorcycle had the right of way.”

80% of accidents involving cars & motorcycles occur at intersections including roundabouts. Motorcycles can be difficult to see & be hidden by other vehicles, or even obscured by the windscreen pillars of your car. These accidents happen at all intersections, regardless whether there’re controlled by lights, or stop & give way signs. When approaching any intersection, it is very important to look in all directions & both sides of the car’s pillars before making turns or moving onto the carriageway. At Traffic lights be very careful making right hand turns, as motorcycles can seem to appear from nowhere when you are already committed. DO NOT run red lights, as a motorcycle at the front of the traffic can be in the centre of the intersection within a second of the light turning green for them.

Drivers blamed for biker crashes
New research shows drivers, not motorcyclists, are responsible for most crashes involving motorbikes and other vehicles, a motorcycle insurer says.

Based on an analysis of all claims received over the three years to last year, Swann Insurance general manager Duncan Brain said motorcyclists were not to blame in 68 per cent of accidents in Victoria where they and other vehicles were involved.

Nationally, more than 9100 claims showed that 70 per cent of accidents were caused by the other driver, according to the research

might be the car's fault a lot of the time, but you can bet the bike rider will be hurt more.

smadge1, very good point! That is why it makes sense to filter and get away from the 'at-fault' car.

Never did it in all the years I rode, can't say I like it much either, it can be very dangerous, to the rider.

I can see the attractions, but realistically you get one chance on a bike and to come off in moving traffic could well be fatal, its all too easy on a bike to find yourself in a car's blind spot when the lights change and the traffic begins to move. From there things can go pear-shaped rather quickly.

That said it happens all the time here in Perth and I've no idea if it is legal or not in WA.

I do agree on cyclists though, in Perth there are a lot of bike tracks but you frequently see riders on the road often obstructing traffic when there is their own path set aside for them.



Cheers

I like bieks they ere fun!!...

Whee!!!

No.
Most them can't ride properly and can't do it.

I do it when the traffic is stationary and there is a big enough gap. I don't have a problem doing it. I prefer to be in the best position possible as a rider and when it comes to the lights, that is generally up front for a rider.

I know people who ride who refuse to do it. Some of them have been shunted by the car drivers behind them when the traffic doesn't start flowing as expected. I tend to purposefully wait to start moving when I am not up front to prevent this, even if I risk some arse hat cutting in front of me because they think a gap exists where it doesn't safely.

I don't like the idiots who attempt it every chance they get - irrespective of space.

I think a blanket ruling against it because of some idiots think they can get through tight gaps would be pretty stupid.

I'm not sure I'd trust the drivers I'm riding between to do it in Launceston, it's fucking horrid to see how little attention most of them pay, but I'd feel safer moving to the front at a red light, I don't see the problem, I haven't done it yet though.

I don't even like driving in Launceston the ineptitude of drivers in the North and South is bloody awful

I filter forward at lights all the time. The only times i wont is when theres not enough room, or when i cant guarantee i've got the sequence of the lights right and i risk them changing on me.

I have a couple of different routes t get around most places - the driving and the riding route. One way to work on the bike takes 15 mins less than the other route by car. If i took the bke route in the car, It would blow out by 30-45 mins as there are 3 sets of lights that hold cars up for a considerable length of time. I just roll to the front via te turning lane, and take off in the first cycle of the lights.

When we chased it up after cheeky's accident, we found that there are two different definitions: filtering is when a bike rolls forwards at the lights, splitting is when a bike rides between two moving vehicles. The latter is definitely illegal, the former is a matter of interpretation. At least, in nsw.

I've only had a few ppl get aggro at me, but my bike is more than capable of getting away from them when need be. Unless they hit your car or hold you up, whats the problem? You're unlikely to out pace them, and they're one less vehicle in front of you at the lights.

some fucking idiot did that, as i was changing lanes in slow moving traffic, his fault for being there, but he ended up in hospital for that.

It used to annoy the crap out of me when I was driving my WRX STi, because I'd have to take off more slowly from the lights in order to avoid hitting them.

Sometimes they'd look in their rear view mirror and realise I was sitting on their tail, and then gun it.

I had to keep reminding myself that if I hit them by getting too close, even though they were the ones who'd broken the law, I'd end up with a guilty conscience.

It's not a problem now that I'm driving a lumbering behemoth of a car. Though I'd be really cranky if one of them winged my mirror on the way past.

And I'm sure you checked your mirrors, performed a proper head-check and were indicating for a few seconds before manoeuvring?

I rode for two solid years in a mix of dense city traffic and long runs on the highway before my accident. Every ride, I always thought how good I'd be as a cop, spotting dozens of infringements, and how much it'd add up in fines - I'd always lose count! And every ride it was unbelievable at how hostile drivers treat riders (even in this thread). Do y'all not realise that they're actually people, with families and shit, who you can and will seriously maim and kill with your bad driving? (Or even recognise that cars are poorly designed and have a whole bunch of blind spots that you should compensate for?)

A rider may nick your mirror lane filtering (when traffic is stationary, which is safe and should be legal!) but treat them like your bumpers and it's a non-issue! You don't have a $1m luxury car. Scooters and slower riders should avoid doing it because they'll hold up traffic and put themselves in more harm's way. Even as a rider it was annoying being held up by all these squids on scooters! Lane splitting (when traffic is moving) is dangerous. It can be used for evasive action though, to avoid being crushed between the two cars and such. I saw that happen to a woman on a scooter once, and she got messed up.

I am always checking my mirrors when driving. It's a habit I got into due to riding - eyes everywhere. If I notice a bike coming up behind I will do my best to create a bit a space before coming to a complete stop in case they want to filter through.

It's the same when on a country road. If there is a bike coming up behind me, where safe and on a straight, I'll move the the side, slow down a little and wave them past if there is no danger ahead. There is nothing more dangerous than a driver who speeds up to try and race a bike in that situation.

As a bike rider, your position in front of traffic give you both an acceleration option and a braking option. In between cars gives you a sandwich option. I prefer to let the riders move past and into a place where they can be seen and not be a jerk about the fact they can, and often are, moving quicker than me. It takes no great pains to assist them on a safe journey.

In all aspects of life there will be arseholes on the road. Just because some of them ride bikes and don't extend the same courtesies as a decent human being would doesn't mean all bike riders are fuckheads who don't give a shit about you and your car.

While I don't disagree with you, don't you also think riders should indicate for a few seconds before maneuvering? Don't you think riders should ride as if they were people with families and that they would be seriously maimed if in an accident?

Some riders do, some don't, but it takes two to tango.

yes i did, i checked my blind spot and everything, so did my driving instructor, not my fault that he decided to rip through traffic at twice the speed everyone is going.

I'm fine with it. Completely, more of it I say in fact. At least they get to the front of the lights and take off like a bat out of hell instead of those stupid cyclists that squeeze to the front just so people have to slowly overtake them again. Those are truly the idiots and selfish denizens of this Earth.

I don't ride a motorbike and probably never will, but I'm fine with it so long as they pay attention to the lights and get out in front and onto a lane ASAP (which they pretty much all do). I worry a little that this encourages speeding in them which will increase the likelihood of injury/death when they eventually come off (all riders seem to at some point). But I think that's a separate issue.

If it's a piddly little scooter that can't get easily accelerate ahead of the cars, then fuck them, but that is incredibly rare (only seen it once).

If i spot one of the fuckers doing it back behind me, i pull over a bit so they can't get by. Fuck them. If i have to sit in traffic they do too.

To all you bike riders who will get agro and have a go at me for this.

Go eat a bag of dicks. I really don't care what you think.

Of course, the problem with that is that it will bring you dangerously close to the car beside you. Unless the bike is unusually wide, or has large panniers, they'll be able to get thru anyway.

Me, personally, I spot it a while back and then just go behind your car, past your drivers window, then back in front of your car to continue on. Others use the hard shoulder, and some times will even just ride the centre line and bypass everyone. Tho that depends on things like traffic, view, and so on.

The other thing is, you and I live in roughly the same area. The majority of the roads here are quite wide, and multi-lane. Which makes it all the funnier when I get to the front and imagine you raging out because your ingenious plan failed miserably :)

I can't say it's ever bothered me.

I usually have the unfortunate luck to be driving in peak hour most of the time, so it's not like I'm going anywhere anyway.

I think riders should do their best to avoid being killed, which would include indicating and performing a proper head-check (it's dangerous enough with bad drivers like below!) They should look both ways before gunning it off on a green light too. I met another rider who got cleaned up by someone who ran a red light and now he has a $300k hospital and rehab bill! (the car was unregistered and it was a foreigner who skipped the country the next day.)



It's really sad to see this hostile and childish attitude towards someone causing you no harm.

Which about sums up my feelings towards peoples hatred of cyclists.

Cyclists cause me harm by getting in the way.

Hmm,

Well in Perth, a city that probably caters better for cyclists than it does for motorists, my beef with them is they use the roads when they don't need to and don't keep left, otherwise I have no problem with someone preferring pedal power.

Cheers

1: if they are going to be lane splitting they need to do it better. and get some rider training. FFS.
2: not owning your actions when your actions can get you killed is arsehattery.

its a bitch when a bike gets to the last car and the lights change, the choice of gun it or stop/slow and pull in behing is a split second one.

Temporary Australians will do what Temporary Australians want.

Well been a couple days and seems this subject has definitely drawn opinions.

As someone who's ridden motorbikes, cycled to work, and now only drive a car think I'm fairly qualified to have an opinion:

1. The reasoning that a bike is SAFER because they can get in front of traffic - well that's only for 10 sec until they catch up with the traffic ahead of them and for this 10sec of SAFETY they are willing to take the risk of lane splitting to navigate to pole position. In my opinion this risk outweighs the benefits and makes this argument invalid.

2. I wouldn't support legislation that bans it altogether but I would support legislation that makes the rider 100% at fault if their actions cause damage to others. By damage I also mean the poor person who has to live with the fact that they accidentally killed a bike rider - that would be a hard thing to live with even if it wasn't their fault!

3. Chrisg.... re your comments on the bicycles riding on the road. Know exactly what you mean. They've just built a brand spanking new bike path right up along Guildford road near Bassendean, and on Monday arvo in the afternoon peak traffic I had to navigate carefully around a bike rider who still preferred to ride on the road when this path was about 3m away. How stupid can people get?

4. The person who posted earlier in the thread who's all up about drivers whinging really needs to wake up. I hope the kid that sees you waiving at them doesn't get to see you get killed because you not only split traffic, but you weren't paying attention.

Anyway in the meantime, I'm going to make sure that I leave as much space as possible for bike riders to get past. Most of them do the right thing and at least that's a good thing.

The OP was talking about a couple of people that stuffed up while filtering, In the current discussion regarding Motorcycle safety, and the need to legislate, there are 2 terms, Filtering and Lane Splitting.


continuing from above, Lane splitting, or passing another vehicle within the same lane while it is moving is illegal. Filtering is legal if done down the left side of a stationary vehicle (in NSW at least) . By these definitions, the motorcyclist is generally at fault unless the other vehicle intentionally moves to cause harm to the bike rider. but in this case, the bike is likely lane splitting so 2 wrongs do not make a right.

Previous legislation had tried to stop bikes by making it illegal for any vehicle to pass within the same lane. this fell apart when it was shown that if a bus still has it's back end in a lane while stopped at a bus stop, NO vehicle may move passed the bus in a lane that any part of the bus occupies. It can easily be seen that by stopping bike lane splitting they were going to radically impede traffic for every one.



That's the kind of positive attitude that can make our daily grind for rep and mat's start and finish that little bit better.

now, if we can get better driver/rider training out of all the fees and bullshit we pay for a licence the roads may be a less shitfull place to be.

On the flip side, England is said to train riders to filter to not impede the general traffic flow, they also have a painted median for this and car drivers know to expect this sort of activity.
I would recommend people look for articles by Kevin Ash. he does a column in 2Wheels (TwoWheels) and does tests for Rapid magazines. I appreciate his point of view and find his articles in australian magazines to be very good and helpful for people wanting to see where Australia can try to go with it's growing fleet of vehicle users.

You'd want to be a more than competent rider and be wary of fools changing direction without warning and arseholes trying to scare you. I assume a lot of riders that do this shouldn't as they lack the skill (and hit your mirror).

As a driver of a car I see them all the time. Often it seems foolish, but in the end I figure of all the traffic jams I've personally ever been in, none can be blamed on a motorcyclist.

Thing is, in stationary traffic, the only dangers you face are:

1) misjudging gaps between vehicles
2) pedestrians crossing between stationary vehicles
3) motorists deliberately opening doors on you (saw it about a month or two back)
4) coming out from between traffic and attempting to cross a side street.

1, 2, and 4 are easily dealt with by rider training. If I don't feel comfortable about the gap, I won't do it. Simple. I also make sure that I go slow enough (often i'll do it with my left foot "skipping" along beside me as i won't have enough speed to balance properly without it) and keep a careful watch out for 2, and 4 (again, with 2, I won't do it if i don't feel comfortable with it. So, for examples, school zones or on King St in Newtown).

3? well, you just gotta keep an eye out. Theres nothing you can really do about it. If some idiot is willing to risk deliberately injuring you while damaging their car, then what can you do? You're not safe near them at all, let alone filtering past them.

But cars changing direction without warning? That's more a lane splitting concern than that of filtering between stationary vehicles at the lights/in traffic. And, at least around here anyway, they'll sit with their indicator on to show the persons beside/behind them in the lane they want into, to show their intentions. Keep your eyes open and this wont be a problem.

I rode from the south of sydney across the bridge, and into the northern beaches (ahhh, home) to go the footy last night. This involved a lot of riding in bus lanes. I copped more aggro last night riding in bus lanes, than I did filtering between traffic. Cars were honking and flashing, had a taxi sit up my arse (when I was already slightly over the limit) flashing his beams and honking, because I was in a bus lane.

Unless its a bus only lane, bikes are fully entitled to ride in bus lanes. Theres no two ways about it, and its clearly marked on the RTA website. Same as with T2 and T3 lanes.

I've met a lot of other riders who aren't even aware they're allowed in those lanes, which always surprised me.

The one thing to always be mindful of when in a bus lane though, is that drivers are only keeping an eye out for a bus and won't see you on the bike if they're going to merge for a left turn. I know this one from experience!

Geez Juggs... Deliberately opening a door on a bike? The world is full of fools, but somehow I do not find it surprising, far too many people these days are inconsiderate to the point of causing danger to others.

The UK has indeed changed, a friend who has been riding there for near on as long as I've been alive told me about that, never used to be the case, I'd happily endorse that.

Not being a rider any more I didn't know about bikes being allowed in bus lanes, and not sure if it applies here but it makes sense.

There are exceptions of course but in general I find bike riders are FAR better on the roads than the average driver, with good reason.

Cheers