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thesorehead

100Hz / 200Hz LCDs look ... smeary

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Hey all,

 

Was watching Fight Club on a relatively new Samsung LCD TV a couple of nights ago. Not the latest model, but one of the ones that uses some kind of 'tweening tech to make the image look smoother than the ~25fps on a regular PAL DVD. I noticed that certain kinds of panning and movement looked really good - but at other times it just looked like someone had gone and used the "Smear" tool on the image or object as it panned or moved around.

 

Which really ruined it for me, TBH. At home I have a 66cm Loewe widescreen CRT, connected via fully-wired SCART to my DVD player - and everything looks fricking sweet on that thing. Sure, it's small; yeah, it's only SD. But colours, blacks, motion - it seems to my non-professional eye that everything looks the way it was supposed to look when they mastered the DVD.

 

Now I didn't get the chance to check what cables they're using to connect the DVD to their LCD - I saw a couple other artifacts, and the age of the DVD player suggest they're still using the same POS composite connection they were using with their old (now-dead) CRT. Which *could* explain the whole thing. And I've not had a chance to really take a good look at display TVs in stores - though I'm sure they'd use some sort of optimised content like a flowing wave or slow-mo action to show off the TV's capabilities and minimise this artifacting.

 

Just wondering, I suppose: wouldn't it be better if TVs just showed 25 (or 23.98, or 30, or 60) *solid* frames per second than trying to make the image smoother-than-smooth with 'tweening that introduces elements that just aren't there in the source? When I see a movie in the cinema I can tell that it's running at 24fps, and I can see the flickering if I look to the side - but it doesn't bother me as each. frame. is. this. single. good. image.

 

Do you know what I mean? Anybody else seen this? Or is it just something that's only caused by dodgy connections, that disappears when you use HDMI or Component?

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"Just wondering, I suppose: wouldn't it be better if TVs just showed 25 (or 23.98, or 30, or 60) *solid* frames per second than trying to make the image smoother-than-smooth with 'tweening that introduces elements that just aren't there in the source?"

 

I don't have much experience, but I'd say so. It's probably mostly a marketing thing. I've even seen 600Hz displays advertised from LG and someone else. I think 120Hz input and output would be good as 120 is evenly divisible by 24, 30 and 60. It was discussed here.

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I saw a couple other artifacts, and the age of the DVD player suggest they're still using the same POS composite connection they were using with their old (now-dead) CRT. Which *could* explain the whole thing

I'd say it's a pretty big factor, but then I think the whole 200hz bollocks is a marketing ploy as well :)

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Regarding the 600hz LG marketing, that's a 'sub-drive' field, or at least that's what it's called :P LG rep explained it all to me today, but that's a different thing all together when talking about 50, 100 and 200hz panels...

 

One thing you may check on the Samsung is to turn off Motionplus in the options. I know that viewing movies on Samsungs and Sonys with Motionplus and Motionflow turned on, this sometimes makes the motion look funny...

 

Motionflow and Motionplus are both technologies used to splice two frames/add more frames to create a more fluid/smooth movement, however sometimes it gets it wrong and it looks odd and unnatural.

 

A tv being 100hz is definitely good over the traditional 50hz, while the difference from 100 to 200 is not as noticeable.

 

 

 

To answer this question...

 

Just wondering, I suppose: wouldn't it be better if TVs just showed 25 (or 23.98, or 30, or 60) *solid* frames per second than trying to make the image smoother-than-smooth with 'tweening that introduces elements that just aren't there in the source? When I see a movie in the cinema I can tell that it's running at 24fps, and I can see the flickering if I look to the side - but it doesn't bother me as each. frame. is. this. single. good. image.

Due to the nature of LCDs (at 50hz) the motion looks juttery (particularly noticeable in say football/cricket/tennis on the ball), so a faster refresh rate adds more frames which creates a smoother motion. Motionflow and Motionplus aim to fake this effect even more so (which is why it's good that they let us turn it off :P)

 

This is why Plasmas don't usually list their refresh rate as they work in a different way to LCDs which is quick enough to display motion without the motion blurring. (Side note, the LG 600hz sub drive aims to reduce colour bleeding, which is a similar problem but different again :P)

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I turn my motion plus off on my 200Hz Samsung unless I'm watching a Blu-Ray or playing a 1080p PS3 game.

Do you find the motion plus looks a bit odd on the movies?

 

Whenever I've used motion flow on Blu-ray stuff it definitely makes movement (particularly of people) look really... weird.

 

Games and tv it seems to be good though.

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I turn my motion plus off on my 200Hz Samsung unless I'm watching a Blu-Ray or playing a 1080p PS3 game.

Do you find the motion plus looks a bit odd on the movies?

 

Whenever I've used motion flow on Blu-ray stuff it definitely makes movement (particularly of people) look really... weird.

 

Games and tv it seems to be good though.

 

It looks weird, but in a good way imo. Whenever I show someone it with a movie on the one thing they all say is that it looks kinda 3dish.

 

There are some things that aren't perfect though. I think it made the green screen jaggies in 300 even more noticeable than before.

 

I'm kinda going through phases with it now where I use it for everything until it bugs me; trying out the different preset settings etc.. Some make digital tv etc. look better, but I do think it's forte is the full HD stuff, (just because there's more pixels to work with, so any frame 'guesses' it makes, should be closer to the mark).

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Yeah I turn it to 'low' or 'off' on my Samsung TV for everything, except sport - then I turn it to high.

 

It does make for some strange motion in movies, especially when the camera pan speed is inconsistent - then you get weird wobbles. Likewise, on high, you get strange auras around objects when the move very slightly against a still or slightly panning background.

 

High motion plus settings are also great for insane action sequences, such as the opening space battle in Revenge of the Sith.

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