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just_some_guy

With V7 imminent, even MS can now admit Vista's flaws

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Interesting CRN article today, in which Microsoft COO Kevin Turner admits to the Worldwide Partner Conference that:

 

1. Vista users' complaints over application and device compatibility were warranted.

 

2. Microsoft has learned much from the mistakes it made with Vista and won't repeat them in Windows 7.

 

3. Vista was a painful experience for the company and its partners.

 

His message is markedly different from the one Microsoft trotted out at last year's WPC, where executives likened Microsoft to a sleeping giant that had woken up and was going to start aggressively defending Vista from "unfair" industry criticism.

 

It's nice to see that even MS can confront the truth about its products, when it's time to spruik a new one.

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Well it was only a matter of time wasn't it?

 

Didn't they say ME was a failure as well? Or was that just everyone else that said that too?

 

:)

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Talk about taking things out of context....

 

JSG, they are talking about the coordination with partners and the lack of drivers upon release. That is all.

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Of course they are, makes them seem more human and get consumer interest in the new version by saying how much better it is. I don't find 7 to be that much better than Vista but most people have upgraded their hardware and software is mostly vista compliant so the compatability issues aren't as pronounced.

Edited by 80proof

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JSG,

 

I'm going to paraphrase what they are saying, to make it clearer.

 

" We admit that we should not have released Vista without coordinating first with out hardware partners, and ensuring drivers were ready for a majority of hardware, and that application compatibility would not drastically suffer. In this sense, many users complaints about vista relating to hardware and software problems were justified."

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I'm going to paraphrase what they are saying, to make it clearer.

 

" We admit that we should not have released Vista without coordinating first with out hardware partners, and ensuring drivers were ready for a majority of hardware, and that application compatibility would not drastically suffer. In this sense, many users complaints about vista relating to hardware and software problems were justified."

So you agree with me. Excellent. Glad we cleared that up.

Edited by just_some_guy

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JSG, you appear to be trolling....

 

Most of the problems you claim to have had with vista have nothing to do with missing drivers or application compatibility.

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As much as I didnt like Vista, I actually find myself using Vista more and more. In fact, I use it all the time now. It does what I want it to do and frankly, after all the updates and fixes, its more complete now than every before.

 

So to answer the apparent confession of said MS officer, well, in a way, its marketing. Sure they shouldnt have released Vista when they did. It was incomplete, third party drivers were there but not to to the same level as XP, and it was slow (at release). I mean see where they stuffed up. They had a plan to bring out a dot update for XP. That didnt work out, so they changed their plans. Release date grew longer and longer. People went up in arms. It had the largest beta test to date, at the time bigger than XP ever had. They even pushed back the released date one additional time just before release citing that they were giving more time to 3rd party software vendors and device manufacturers to have their stuff completed and up to date. Again, people were up in arms. Cries of, "ooh wow, MS is late again for this, typical MS crap."

 

Now, I am no fanboi of MS, but I see two reasons here why Vista's release was less than stellar. Firstly, they hype. MS in its magnificence decided to say that Vista is the new generation of OS. It had by far the biggest marketing release ever in the companies history. Although it did deliver for the most part it was mostly under the hood, not really visible to average user who tends to see only whats in front on the monitor. What people saw was, this is still Windows. Sure it looked different, but still the same as XP. Oops, why cant my <insert name here> device not work. Damn, not able to find the new Vista driver for it, or even if the drivers and stuff did exist it was pretty buggy and bad. Which leads me to my second reasons.

 

Device drivers. XP did a good job with device drivers. However, the way Vista was handling drivers was different. Although, MS gave time for devs with more time to make sure their stuff is good and up to spec, somehow they didnt. In hindsight, MS couldve just said, lets push the date back even further and get your software and drivers done. They didnt, and whats made Windows strong till now became its weakness in Vista's release.

 

The way I see it is that MS and the 3rd party device manufacturers are to blame. MS for the hype, and the vendors for not coming up with their drivers on time. So yes, Vista had its flaws.

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"It had by far the biggest marketing release ever in the companies history"

 

Did you see the Windows 95 or "New eXPerience" launches?

 

Vista had huge online hype, but it was nowhere near as extravagant as some of their previous endeavours.

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Vista for me has still been one of the most stable OS's I have ever used. The only crashes I have suffered while using it were caused by nvidia and creative drivers. The only apps that didn't work were mostly 16bit.

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So yes, Vista had its flaws.

Yes. It's a simple conclusion, and one which even Microsoft can now acknowledge.

 

But all the OS's they have released have had flaws so this really isn't a new conclusion.

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So yes, Vista had its flaws.

Yes. It's a simple conclusion, and one which even Microsoft can now acknowledge.

 

But all the OS's they have released have had flaws so this really isn't a new conclusion.

 

Yes, but its the first time that MS has publically said it in that manner which is something that should go down in history :P

 

MS rarely admits to anything and if they did, they would say they know about it and are going to have a solution for it in X amount of days...etc. The point I was trying to drive in my OP is that with Vista, they had things go wrong which they didnt forsee, not the least of which was device driver support. I chose that particular topic as it was one of the main complaints that people had about Vista after its release. From what I know, I remember in 2006, MS announced that it was delaying release, agian, till 2007 for the purposes of allowing hardware and software vendors to finalise their plans and build on device drivers. Somehow, in that time, device drivers didnt seem to eventuate. I am hard pressed to believe that MS didnt know about the situation.

 

The thing is, they were hoping that Vista was going to be a massive hit. BUT...it wasnt. After they spent countless billions on it developement I guess it was fair to see things that way. All in all, I think they are feeling sorry for themselves.

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It took them awhile but I seem to remember MS mumbling sorry for the horror that was windows ME. But it seems to me that the admission in this thread is about driver support.

 

How long did hardware manufactures need to get their act together, I mean really ? MS waited long enough, they had a product they wanted to release and the only thing holding them back was driver support, it's not surprising they got tired of waiting.

 

I have already acknowledged that others had other problems with Vista but it has not been my experience.

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Honestly, I was very anti Vista until I got a new computer with x64 and have been happy since. SP1 fixed problems that should have been sorted before release.

 

The thing with vista that pissed me off the most was changing the domain login screen. I need stuff to be as simple as posible for users. I don't need a domain login to look pretty, it needs to be easy to use.

 

It took them awhile but I seem to remember MS mumbling sorry for the horror that was windows ME. But it seems to me that the admission in this thread is about driver support.

 

How long did hardware manufactures need to get their act together, I mean really ? MS waited long enough, they had a product they wanted to release and the only thing holding them back was driver support, it's not surprising they got tired of waiting.

 

I have already acknowledged that others had other problems with Vista but it has not been my experience.

I think microsoft not assisting suppliers slowed the driver development. More from both sides would have helped the release.

 

Vista for me has still been one of the most stable OS's I have ever used. The only crashes I have suffered while using it were caused by nvidia and creative drivers. The only apps that didn't work were mostly 16bit.

Yep on my vista x64 machine I'm yet to have a crash. I've had apps crash but the system kept running.

 

I think I see where this is going. Let's not start an unnecessary argument.

With all due respect to JSG, I think we all agree we know the direction and motive of his threads/posts.

Edited by spaced

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Yes, my motive is to get the blind fanbois who mislead noobs on this site, to admit what even Microsoft has now admitted.

 

(I didn't feel passionate about this until the fanbois here started calling me names and claiming, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, there were "no problems with Vista".)

Edited by just_some_guy

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Microsoft has not admitted to flaws in Vista(which is not necessary, as they are aware, as is everybody, that every OS will have some flaws).

 

They have admitted to a failure to coordinate with manufacturers, resulting in a lack of drivers, resulting in a sucky experience for some.

 

Which is not the same as the OS being full of faults and causing the problems.

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Microsoft has not admitted to flaws in Vista

Sorry, but I find Microsoft's own admissions about the flaws in Vista more credible than your advice not to believe what they said.

 

The Channel also knows about Vista's problems...

 

...For Microsoft partners, Windows 7's arrival couldn't come soon enough. Even fervent Microsoft Kool-Aid drinkers admit that Windows Vista was a disaster, and the result has been a surprisingly large swath of customers that are still using Windows XP.

 

...the fact that Windows 7 development has been a breeze compared to Vista has convinced many partners that Microsoft has learned from its Vista mistakes.

 

...the Windows 7 team is well-run and dedicated to stability, compatibility and organization. That's a marked departure from what I observed of the Vista team.

 

...That's a contrast to Vista's hefty hardware requirements and spotty device support, which helped to cement its reputation in the channel as a bloated OS that only ran as advertised on higher end hardware.

 

..."This is the first time in Microsoft history that customers can upgrade confidently to a new version of Windows on existing PC hardware," said Allison Watson, vice president of worldwide channels at Microsoft, in a recent interview.

 

... Vista's well-publicized delays and compatibility problems were the result of Microsoft's adding and changing many features in the course of development. With Windows 7, Microsoft's goal was to keep the scope of the operating system within reason and not get carried away with excessive alterations and additions.

Edited by just_some_guy

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That's fine. Because no where that I can see did Microsoft admit to the flaws in Vista you say they did, in the article you linked to.

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Further quotes added above for your benefit.

 

Including:

 

"This is the first time in Microsoft history that customers can upgrade confidently to a new version of Windows on existing PC hardware," said Allison Watson, vice president of worldwide channels at Microsoft, in a recent interview.

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I don't see them saying that they have perfected the upgrade process of Windows 7 as admitting faults in Vista...

 

I'm not sure how you drew that conclusion.

 

...For Microsoft partners, Windows 7's arrival couldn't come soon enough. Even fervent Microsoft Kool-Aid drinkers admit that Windows Vista was a disaster, and the result has been a surprisingly large swath of customers that are still using Windows XP.

I am guessing Kool-aid drinkers refers to hardcore fans, not Microsoft themselves. In any event, vista was a disaster, but not because it was full of flaws.

 

...the fact that Windows 7 development has been a breeze compared to Vista has convinced many partners that Microsoft has learned from its Vista mistakes.

Again, this is not because Vista was full of flaws, it was because they shipped without having drivers ready.

 

...the Windows 7 team is well-run and dedicated to stability, compatibility and organization. That's a marked departure from what I observed of the Vista team.

OK. I don't know how valid a single opinion is, but I also don't think it is evidence of all the flaws in Vista

...That's a contrast to Vista's hefty hardware requirements and spotty device support, which helped to cement its reputation in the channel as a bloated OS that only ran as advertised on higher end hardware.

Windows 7 has lower requirements to compete in the netbook field. I really don't see Vista as being overly bloated, and it runs on lowerend hardware without too much of a problem.

 

... Vista's well-publicized delays and compatibility problems were the result of Microsoft's adding and changing many features in the course of development. With Windows 7, Microsoft's goal was to keep the scope of the operating system within reason and not get carried away with excessive alterations and additions. [/i]

Yep, part of why it was a disaster was how much it kept changing during development, not meeting expectations when it was released. However, this is not the same as the final product being full of flaws.

 

I think you are just hearing what you want to hear, to an extent....

Edited by TheSecret

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