Jump to content
just_some_guy

With V7 imminent, even MS can now admit Vista's flaws

Recommended Posts

JSG, you're looking into it too much. The Mojave Experiment could have been a mere screenshot printed on a piece of paper. The fact that many of the participants didn't even recognise the OS is proof enough that they had their minds influenced by others, without even trying it themselves.

Yes. What it didn't prove was that the flaws in Vista don't exist, or that criticism of Vista is unfounded.

 

Yet that's what many people try to claim that it proved.

 

What is the relevance of quoting the Mojave 'Experiment' in this thread? Do you think I and others who have problems with Vista haven't used it, or were just influenced by others' opinions of it?

 

If not, then why even mention it?

 

 

The Mojave experiment highlighted that a bunch of haters knew nothing about what they were testing and were simply influenced by the experiences of others, or the media.

Wow! A bunch of people who hadn't directly used a product had been influenced by commentators opinions! Thank you for Microsoft for that incredible revelation!!!

 

And then, when given a 10 minute perfect world demo by an expert, without even touching the mouse themselves, they thought it looked cool! WOW!!! What an advance in Human Understanding!!!

Edited by just_some_guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll admit right here and now that I don't like Vista. I carry around my laptop and need to continuously set different static IPs. This becomes a royal pain in the arse in Vista - too many clicks. Also, I can't sand UAC or the nag screen after you turn it off.

Not really OT, since the thread is about perceived flaws..

 

How is that a flaw in vista?

 

To set a static IP from the command prompt: netsh int ip set address "local area connection" static 192.168.0.101 255.255.255.0 192.168.0.254 1

 

Disabling the nag screen is simple with a registry setting or to.

 

Honestly, Vista was simply the next step forward. It added a lot of beneficial features. The problem was simply due to poor coordination, and a lack of drivers, and an overwhelming amount of poorly written software which was set to run in admin mode when it absolutely should not have been. Most of the problems have long since been fixed, and hating on it just for the sake of hating on it, or holding a grudge is just stupid. It's a piece of technology. Judge it on it's technical merits, or not at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Judge it on it's technical merits, or not at all.

Amen to that. What a pity more people don't.

 

What I do think Microsoft deserves full credit for, is contriving to set up a flawed and biased piece of pseudo market research, and then conducting a clever social media marketing campaign to get a bunch of otherwise intelligent people to think it was somehow some kind of valid 'experiment'.

 

If only they could code as good as they can market.

Edited by just_some_guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Judge it on it's technical merits, or not at all.

Amen to that. What a pity more people don't.

 

Why are you acting like you do?

 

You've had the advantages explained to you several times, as well as the problems explained and it also noted that they were not that much worse than what came before. You continually slam vista, often with little basis. Such as misrepresenting the quotes in the OP.

 

Whatever your negative experiences with Vista, the advancements and benefits outweigh the negatives. Even if that was not true initially, it has been true for longer than it has been false. In fact, even if it is still not true for you, but true for most people, that should give some indication.

Edited by TheSecret

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are you acting like you do?

Because on a technical web site, I expect to be able to have a dispassionate discussion on technical matters. And the reality denial that goes on around Vista here irks me.

 

Whatever your negative experiences with Vista, the advancements and benefits outweigh the negatives.

In your opinion. Which you are entitled to. As am I, given I have explained several times now the ongoing problems I and others like Ashton Mills continue to have.

 

For example, just last night, I had another go round with the well documented and still unresolved 'files that are there but not appearing in Explorer window' bug (and please don't anyone insult me with the 'change your file view preferences' n00b crap). I also had to burn a fucking disk to transfer files between an XP PC which networks with a Vista PC fine for a while, and then stops, despite every setting being the way it should, all firewalls turned off, and and being able to ping it via a command prompt, but it wont show up in Explorer, having done reinstalls of both OSs to try to stop it from happening.

 

So don't tell me that Vista is fine now, thanks. It's an expensive, unoptimised, resource hungry, confidence trick played by Microsoft to suck money through its defacto monopoly. And despite gigabytes of patches and countless hours of trying to work around its bugs over the course of 3 years, it still has unresolved issues.

 

I'd love to spend 10 minutes giving those Mojave 'test subjects' a little demo of my own.

Edited by just_some_guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because on a technical web site, I expect to be able to have a dispassionate discussion on technical matters. And the reality denial that goes on around Vista here irks me.

You didn't answer my question.

 

Of course a dispassionate discussion on technical matters can be expected, and for the most part, this is what happens.

 

However, you have a very obvious grudge, based on anecdotal experience, and you let this cloud your opinion, so that they are anything but dispassionate, and pretty far from technical.

 

In your opinion. Which you are entitled to. As am I, given I have explained several times now the ongoing problems I and others like Ashton Mills continue to have.

It's not so much an opinion, as an objective truth.

 

In this case, it seems far more likely that the issue is specific to your hardware or configuration, or quite possibly a user issue.

 

Honestly, have you investigated the issues at all, or just assumed that they happen because Vista ic crap, despite most people not having the issues you describe.

 

So don't tell me that Vista is fine now, thanks. It's an expensive, unoptimised, resource hungry, confidence trick played by Microsoft to suck money through its defacto monopoly. And despite gigabytes of patches and countless hours of trying to work around its bugs over the course of 3 years, it still has unresolved issues.

Err, no.

 

You apparently are prone to problems that most people simply are not. Does this not make you think, that maybe, just perhaps, the issue is on your end?

 

Don't bother quoting Ashton Mills. I didn't read his article and don't know if he does have the same issues you did. However, considering he seems to be more into the Linux side of things and has a strong dislike for MS, I would think it is possible he did not fully investigate the issue, and possibly let a preexisting opinion influence his opinion.

 

I have an offer for you though. You seem to have all these particular issues with Vista. Well, I don't believe for a second they are issues with Vista specifically. If you make a thread in the Windows forum, listing each of your problems and what you have tried so far to fix them, I am reasonably sure I will be able to solve your issues. It wouldn't cost you anything, and will be a chance to actually determine where the problem lays, and maybe learn something as a result.

 

What do you say?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A bunch of people who hadn't directly used a product had been influenced by commentators opinions! Thank you for Microsoft for that incredible revelation!!!

Yeah and commentators can be wrong. Ever heard of personal opinion?

 

A lot of commentators blasted Vista from their technical use standpoint - that's my mine beef with it. But the vast majority of users are not technical and don't need to change networks like I do.

 

And then, when given a 10 minute perfect world demo by an expert, without even touching the mouse themselves, they thought it looked cool! WOW!!! What an advance in Human Understanding!!!

/sigh

 

JSG, step back a second and think about it - these people hadn't even seen Vista before forming an opinion. When they did see it, their opinion changed.

Edited by Leonid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And still none of what JSG says offers any reason why he thinks his constant "HURR SERVICE PACK MICRO$OFT EVIL" threadshitting is OK.

 

Dude, if people don't care by now, they'll never care.

 

Wait. I'll rephrase that.

 

If people don't agree with you by now, they'll never agree.

Edited by SquallStrife

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. I have provided specific and technical reasons for my point of view on Vista in multiple threads on Atomic. Those reasons, which cover everything from pricing, to performance in a clock cycle per second sense, to unadvertised broken backward compatibilities, to UI changes, to lockdowns/denial of previous functionality, have nothing to do with 'fear', 'ignorance', 'lack of technical competence' or 'gullability'.

 

2. Vista works fine for some people now, which is great for them. Vista doesn't work fine for other people, including me. That's bad. To claim that 'Vista is fine now' is some kind of objective truth is simply incorrect.

 

3. Microsoft's Mojave 'Experiment' simply showed that people who had negative preconceptions had more positive perceptions of Vista once they'd been subjected to a 10 minute demo by an expert in a controlled environment on an optimal platform. That is fact true of any marketing of any product. The so-called 'experiment' does not prove that 'Vista is fine', even though it is popularly offered up as a proof of that by people who don't seem to understand just what MS did in that marketing stunt.

 

4. Why should I and others not express our experiences with Vista, in threads about Windows? What makes it ok for some of you to continually offer the positive half the story, spruiking Vista, but not ok for others of us to provide balance to the Windows-boosting that goes on here?

 

 

Finally, you know how some of you are tired with me mentioning Vista's flaws...? Well that's exactly how tired I am of reading misrepresentative statements about how wonderful and flawless Vista is. And also, how I and others who have problems with Vista are just 'haters' or 'misinformed' or 'gullible' or all the other insults that are made to us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. I have provided specific and technical reasons for my point of view on Vista in multiple threads on Atomic. Those reasons, which cover everything from pricing, to performance in a clock cycle per second sense, to unadvertised broken backward compatibilities, to UI changes, to lockdowns/denial of previous functionality, have nothing to do with 'fear', 'ignorance', 'lack of technical competence' or 'gullability'.

You really need to have a look at a test done with an Apple IIe vs the latest AMD Athlon.

 

Those tests proved that clock for clock with applications of the day - the IIe was proportionally faster than the Athlon.

 

The results would invalidate your argument.

 

2. Vista works fine for some people now, which is great for them. Vista doesn't work fine for other people, including me. That's bad. To claim that 'Vista is fine now' is some kind of objective truth is simply incorrect.

You're projecting.

 

3. Microsoft's Mojave 'Experiment' simply showed that people who had negative preconceptions had more positive perceptions of Vista once they'd been subjected to a 10 minute demo by an expert in a controlled environment on an optimal platform. That is fact true of any marketing of any product. The so-called 'experiment' does not prove that 'Vista is fine', even though it is popularly offered up as a proof of that by people who don't seem to understand just what MS did in that marketing stunt.

It doesn't prove anything about Vista technically. It merely proves that a lot of people don't know the first thing about Vista but are prepared to stick the boot in anyway.

 

4. Why should I and others not express our experiences with Vista, in threads about Windows? What makes it ok for some of you to continually offer the positive half the story, spruiking Vista, but not ok for others of us to provide balance to the Windows-boosting that goes on here?

Because you always tie it in with Microsoft is TEH EVILZ type crap.

 

Finally, you know how some of you are tired with me mentioning Vista's flaws...? Well that's exactly how tired I am of reading misrepresentative statements about how wonderful and flawless Vista is. And also, how I and others who have problems with Vista are just 'haters' or 'misinformed' or 'gullible' or all the other insults that are made to us.

So you're posting this thread to tell us how much you dislike Vista because you dislike threads telling you how much people like Vista?

 

That fortress of logic is awesome.

Edited by Leonid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. I have provided specific and technical reasons for my point of view on Vista in multiple threads on Atomic. Those reasons, which cover everything from pricing, to performance in a clock cycle per second sense, to unadvertised broken backward compatibilities, to UI changes, to lockdowns/denial of previous functionality, have nothing to do with 'fear', 'ignorance', 'lack of technical competence' or 'gullability'.

You've posted complaints and mentioned problems, which have always been calrified and explained to you. You just refuse to accept the reasons/explanations.

 

2. Vista works fine for some people now, which is great for them. Vista doesn't work fine for other people, including me. That's bad. To claim that 'Vista is fine now' is some kind of objective truth is simply incorrect.

The difference is, Vista works fine for the majority of people.

 

4. Why should I and others not express our experiences with Vista, in threads about Windows? What makes it ok for some of you to continually offer the positive half the story, spruiking Vista, but not ok for others of us to provide balance to the Windows-boosting that goes on here?

Because it's not balanced, it's simply a few problems exxagerated out of proportion, repeatedly. It's tiring.

 

Finally, you know how some of you are tired with me mentioning Vista's flaws...? Well that's exactly how tired I am of reading misrepresentative statements about how wonderful and flawless Vista is. And also, how I and others who have problems with Vista are just 'haters' or 'misinformed' or 'gullible' or all the other insults that are made to us.

So, take me up on my challenge.

 

List all your problems in one thread, and see if I or other can't help fix them, or to see what is causing them. We may all learn something as a result.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ Leonid: You managed to follow the logic on one item out of five. Well, it's a start. I'm not going to point out the flaws in your other four responses, because we both know that would be, ahem, pointless.

 

 

 

So, take me up on my challenge.

Sure, please make Vista run as fast as XP did on equivalent hardware, and get back for me compensation for the hundreds of otherwise billable hours I had to spend working around bugs in Vista over the past 3 years? PM me when you're done.

 

Aside from that, I'd like a solution to the itinerant 'copy files to a directory but they ocassionally don't show up in explorer' bug, and also the itinerant 'you can ping the XP PC on your home network but it still wont show up in the Network explorer, even though you have set and reset all the file and folder permissions on both machines, turned off all firewalls, tried different routers and cables, tried different vesions of drivers, and every other possible solution' bug.

 

Because it's not balanced, it's simply a few problems exxagerated out of proportion, repeatedly. It's tiring.

In an unbalanced thread full of people extolling the virtues of Vista, the ocassional post by someone representing those of us who have different experiences with Vista is balance. Edited by just_some_guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ Leonid: You managed to follow the logic on one item out of five. Well, it's a start. I'm not going to point out the flaws in your other four responses, because we both know that would be, ahem, pointless.

You're not going to point out the flaws because you're not going to find any.

 

But by all means, be the big man, blame the Operating System and the big bad Microsoft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure, please make Vista run as fast as XP did on equivalent hardware, and get back for me compensation for the hundreds of otherwise billable hours I had to spend working around bugs in Vista over the past 3 years? PM me when you're done.

As long as you're not running Vista on hardware below the minimum specs, then sure, it's possible.

 

Have you follow or tried any optimisation guide? Disabling unneeded services, cache tweaking etc?

 

Aside from that, I'd like a solution to the itinerant 'copy files to a directory but they ocassionally don't show up in explorer' bug, and also the itinerant 'you can ping the XP PC on your home network but it still wont show up in the Network explorer, even though you have set and reset all the file and folder permissions on both machines, turned off all firewalls, tried different routers and cables, tried different vesions of drivers, and every other possible solution' bug.

If you make a separate thread in the Windows section so we can deal with these issues properly, I'll be happy to try and help you.

 

In an unbalanced thread full of people extolling the virtues of Vista, the ocassional post by someone representing those of us who have different experiences with Vista is balance.

No, it's not.

 

Balance is not wanted here. You're, basically, the odd man out.

 

To highlight your very personal issues with vista, to give them as much attention as everybody else's lack of attention is foolish. What's more, you give rather heated and personal criticisms, compared to most other people simply stating they haven't had any problems. The passion in your responses is certainly not balanced.

Edited by TheSecret

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just for lolz, and because I once before witnessed the miracle of Leonid realising he was wrong...

 

Those tests proved that clock for clock with applications of the day - the IIe was proportionally faster than the Athlon. The results would invalidate your argument.

Those results would say nothing about my argument that Vista was much more resource-intesive than its predecessor for little or no increased functionality.

 

You're projecting.

So you seriously believe that I'm the only one having problems with Vista? Please Google 'problems with Vista' and tell me how you explain all those posts and pages.

 

It doesn't prove anything about Vista technically. It merely proves that a lot of people don't know the first thing about Vista but are prepared to stick the boot in anyway.

Which is what I said, thanks for agreeing. Please join me in passing that on to all the people who misrepresentat that 'experiment' as proving that 'Vista is great'.

 

Because you always tie it in with Microsoft is TEH EVILZ type crap.

Not always. CBF giving you links.

 

So you're posting this thread to tell us how much you dislike Vista because you dislike threads telling you how much people like Vista?

No, not quite. I'm posting this thread because I am tired of people saying there are no problems with Vista, and that anyone who 'thinks' they are having a problem with Vista is dumb, misguided, or gullible.

 

There you go. Knock yourself out.

 

 

Have you follow or tried any optimisation guide? Disabling unneeded services, cache tweaking etc?

Yes, of course. I am talking here about benchmarks performed by sites like Tom's Hardware, not some kind of subjective nonsense.

 

Balance is wanted here. You're, basically, the odd man out.

LOL. So if I jump on the pro-Vista bandwagon with the rest of you, it'll be balanced...?! LOL. Hope you're kidding.

 

To highlight your very personal issues with vista, to give them as much attention as everybody else's lack of attention is foolish.

Again, it's the 'you are the only person who has problems with Vista' line of illogic.

 

you give rather heated and personal criticisms, compared to most other people simply stating they haven't had any problems.

No, I give heated responses when people claim incorrectly that anyone like me, having problems with Vista, is either 'foolish', 'imagining them', 'gullible' or 'just a hater', as if I'm either misunderstanding or misrepresenting reality in some way.

 

Wouldn't you get upset to be told that the technical problems you're experiencing with a product are somehow your own fault, even though you've been working with PCs for 25 years and know more about debugging them than most Help Desk operators? It's frankly insulting.

Edited by just_some_guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you follow or tried any optimisation guide? Disabling unneeded services, cache tweaking etc?

Yes.

Then, I think it is likely you are doing something wrong, or have faulty drivers.

 

LOL. So if I jump on the pro-Vista bandwagon with the rest of you, it'll be balanced...?! LOL. I can't argue with that logic because there isn't any logic to it to argue with :)

I didn't say it would be balanced. I said being balanced is not a good thing here, when it is artificial.

 

Again with the 'you are the only person who has problems with Vista' line of illogic.

Not at all. It's the "you are one of the minority of users still having problems with Vista which is not indicative of the whole" logic.

 

Honestly, the proof is in the pudding. I've offered to look at and try and solve all your problems, but you're not willing to make a thread and try and solve them, because you would rather be convinced that Vista is complete crap no matter what anyone states and that MS is an evil soulless company. If you are truly interested in having a dispassionate technical discussion and seeking an objective truth, then make a thread about your problems, without being vague, so we can get to the truth of the issue.

 

Wouldn't you get upset to be told that the technical problems you're experiencing with a product are somehow your own fault, even though you've been working with PCs for 25 years and know more about debugging them than most Help Desk operators? It's frankly insulting.

Yes, I certainly would. I would also know enough to disregard those people.

 

However, I really don't think you are familiar with the technical side of things in Vista. You just don't give the impression of someone who is.

 

I seem to recall you thinking Vista was a resource hog because you didn't understand Superfetch, and SquallStrife ended up explaining it to you.

 

What are the chances it is a similar situation for your other complaints?

 

Anyway. You can easily make the thread, and provide technical input into your problems and help to show that they are the result of innate flaws in the OS rather than a user or driver issue. As I said above though, I suspect you are not willing to do this, as you would much rather continue bitching about Vista.

Edited by TheSecret

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then, I think it is likely you are doing something wrong, or have faulty drivers.

/bangs head on desk. Well, go tell Tom's Hardware and the other benchmarking sites that you know better than they do.

 

Honestly, the proof is in the pudding. I've offered to look at and try and solve all your problems, but you're not willing to make a thread and try and solve them, because you would rather be convinced that Vista is complete crap no matter what anyone states and that MS is an evil soulless company.

FFS. I gave you the issues already. Why do you need them in a separate thread?

 

By the way, I have combed the internet and MS's own technical bulletins for fixes to these bugs. I have tried dozens of solutions. I have invested probably more than 50 hours several reinstalls of Windows trying to solve them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those results would say nothing about my argument that Vista was much more resource-intesive than its predecessor for little or no increased functionality.

And Windows XP was similar to Windows 2000 in exactly the same way. XP was more resource intensive than 2000 and had little to no increased functionality other than a native wireless stack.

 

Please Google 'problems with Vista' and tell me how you explain all those posts and pages.

 

Teh Evilz Windoze XP

 

Which is what I said, thanks for agreeing. Please join me in passing that on to all the people who misrepresentat that 'experiment' as proving that 'Vista is great'.

Who does that?

 

Not always. CBF giving you links.

Sure. That was that one time you managed to contain yourself.

 

No, not quite. I'm posting this thread because I am tired of people saying there are no problems with Vista, and that anyone who 'thinks' they are having a problem with Vista is dumb, misguided, or gullible.

Who is this person saying there are no problems with Vista?

 

Name him/her.

Edited by Leonid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe we've had this argument several times before. And it'll always end the same.

 

JSG, do not start another thread to express your dislike for Vista. Enough is enough. You've made your point several times, if people aren't going to accept it now, they won't do it for the next umpteenth threads either.

 

Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×