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I dont really know where to put this so can mods please move this if its the wrong spot, Thanks

 

Hey guys,

 

Just after a bit of an opinion regarding qualifications.

 

Im basically tossing up between Sponsered certs such as Microsoft qaulifications

and doing a Bachelors in information systems.

 

Now i've spoken to a few different people all ready and most of them have

said that Microsoft certs hold more real value when it comes to IT.

Is this true?

 

I've also been told that a Bachelors may help with actually landing a job.

 

So Im all a bit confused at the moment.

 

At the moment im leaning more towards a career in networking but im not overly

fussy.

 

All opinions are more than welcome!

 

Thanks,

Jamie

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Give us a bit of history.

 

Have you worked in IT before?

 

What other IT quals do you hold?

 

Chances are a Diploma at a TAFE would be more than enough to get your foot in the door, once you're in, even at a low level job it shouldn't be too hard to move up.

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Pretty much what Nuke said. MS certs these days seem to be like toys you get from cereal box's the piece of paper is great and all but if you dont with hold the knowledge you gain from the training then your pretty much fucked. In the last place's i've worked I've gotten the job over people with CCNA's MCP and their Bachelors with my simple diploma and my experience in the field which really doesn't say much about the calibre of people coming out of education centres these days.

 

 

What are you interested in doing? What do you enjoy? Have you looked into Tafe? Tafe is a fantastic option due the fact that you gain practical skills and just like any kind of training its up to you to make the most of it.

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Pretty much what Nuke said. MS certs these days seem to be like toys you get from cereal box's the piece of paper is great and all but if you dont with hold the knowledge you gain from the training then your pretty much fucked. In the last place's i've worked I've gotten the job over people with CCNA's MCP and their Bachelors with my simple diploma and my experience in the field which really doesn't say much about the calibre of people coming out of education centres these days.

 

 

What are you interested in doing? What do you enjoy? Have you looked into Tafe? Tafe is a fantastic option due the fact that you gain practical skills and just like any kind of training its up to you to make the most of it.

Networking has really got a hold on me. So i'd prefer to stick with that.

 

Thats really the issue I have. I dont want to spend 3-4 years doing certs that

are next to worthless.

 

At the same time it seems like getting in to the industry is as hard as getting in to Mordor.

 

The only real entry point is Service desks, which is fine, i'd happily do the work.

However I dont see a real progression to more technical work.

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Agree with mudge. I've seen plenty of guys with fancy bits of paper but bumbled about once they were on the job. That goes for degrees as well as vendor certs. A bit of paper doesn't necessarily mean that they know what they are talking about. I've interviewed people for jobs before and I'd always go for the older guy with heaps of experience and little/no bits of paper, than the guy fresh out of uni with a degree but no experience.

 

If you want to do something like programming or web development then the degree is probably the go, I've looked into doing a degree myself but it seems very general.

 

If you want to do something like look after servers or networks, then the vendor certs are probably the go as they will be much more specific about the sort of gear you will be looking after.

 

Personally, I got a traineeship with the govt and got a Cert 3 out of it, however because I was exposed to a lot of corporate IT infrastructure and got handson experience with it I managed to land a job as a system admin despite having only a very basic qualification. I've since upgraded that to a Diploma which was actually really simple because I got credit for my on-the-job experience, which meant I had to do very little work to get the diploma.

 

I'd definitely reccomend a traineeship, a good way to get your foot in the door, plus if you know your stuff you can always get kept on after it finishes.

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Yep traineeship is how I started out it was great. Horrible pay but great hands on experience plus the place I was working for ended up paying for my diploma too :)

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It depends on what area of IT you are trying to get into. "IT" is such a broad field.

In terminology, an "IT professional" is an infrastructure person, looking after Networks, Servers (eg Domains and Databases) and so on.

The complement of that are "Developers" (and designers), the people developing the software that the IT professionals support and manage.

 

Certifications are more appropriate to IT professionals, where they're supporting a particular technology, eg Windows Server based networks, or CISCO etc. That's not to say a degree, which would be more theory based is not at all suitable. If one is to be a Network Engineer, knowing details (some of which can be read from RFC's) and theory like what is taught in a undergraduate degrees is useful.

 

Undergraduate degrees are more neccessary for developers. Developers usually deal with multiple languages and multiple platforms and need to understand the theory behind a speciifc technology, so they can move between frameworks and platforms as the particular solution and employer dictates.

 

As a Software Dev Manager with a few years in that position, I've seen pretty much all combinations in both streams. I've interviewed people with many Microsoft certs who were completely useless, and I've interviewed people with degrees who also sucked just as hard. We've got some developers here who are absolutely brilliant but haven't finished a degree or any certification. It's really up to the individual when it comes to which will get you better skilled

 

As for which will more easily land you a job: it depends on the company. I've worked at companies where every developer HAD to have a degree in Comp Sci or Engineering. HAD TO. No degree? doens't matter how good a developer you might be, you won't be considered. I've worked at companies where paper doesn't matter, ability does. In my experience it's that latter type of company that is better to work for :)

 

FWIW I've got undergrad & postgrad degrees and multiple MS certs, so I come from a position of experiencing both sides :)

Edited by kikz

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Pretty much what Nuke said. MS certs these days seem to be like toys you get from cereal box's the piece of paper is great and all but if you dont with hold the knowledge you gain from the training then your pretty much fucked. In the last place's i've worked I've gotten the job over people with CCNA's MCP and their Bachelors with my simple diploma and my experience in the field which really doesn't say much about the calibre of people coming out of education centres these days.

 

 

What are you interested in doing? What do you enjoy? Have you looked into Tafe? Tafe is a fantastic option due the fact that you gain practical skills and just like any kind of training its up to you to make the most of it.

Networking has really got a hold on me. So i'd prefer to stick with that.

 

Thats really the issue I have. I dont want to spend 3-4 years doing certs that

are next to worthless.

 

At the same time it seems like getting in to the industry is as hard as getting in to Mordor.

 

The only real entry point is Service desks, which is fine, i'd happily do the work.

However I dont see a real progression to more technical work.

 

How about doing some Cisco stuff then?

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I was 2 years into an ICT degree at my university but changed at the end of last year after it got really really boring (that and I can't get my head around programming which was part of the course), so make sure you are committed to doing IT for a long time

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And remember courses can run into the tens of thousands. As much as 10 years ago it was $25,000 to get MCSE certification through a training provider.

 

I did my certs by buying the books from amazon and sitting the exam when I felt I was ready. Worked out to cost about $1000 all up for 6 exams.

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I love my job, would like to advance some more, but it's gotten very hard in these days of Q.A. to do a job that you don't have qualifications for, no matter how good you are.

 

I'm stuck where I am in low-level support until I can get qualifications.

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I love my job, would like to advance some more, but it's gotten very hard in these days of Q.A. to do a job that you don't have qualifications for, no matter how good you are.

 

I'm stuck where I am in low-level support until I can get qualifications.

Exactly what Im worried about.

 

 

Thanks for all the replies guys. Very helpful.

 

Seek learning have a package deal that will give me some nice entry level certs

such as CCNA and a main course for MCITP - Enterprise administrator.

 

I'd prefer to do it through an organisation just for the structure.

Its $4950

Includes MCTS MCDST and Comp TIA A+ as well.

 

So I think I might go that way. Get my foot in the door then move on from there.

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Certification is not cheap. All my certs were paid by the employer at the time.

I wish I was valued enough by my employer for them to invest in my career.

 

I struggle as it is on my base wage and long hours, it's hard to fork out thousands and spend the time to do these certs and courses myself.

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I haven't got any certs/dips what ever and I work in 'IT' I just started doing desktop support and jumped at jobs as they've come up and built my skill set up that way.

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I love my job, would like to advance some more, but it's gotten very hard in these days of Q.A. to do a job that you don't have qualifications for, no matter how good you are.

 

I'm stuck where I am in low-level support until I can get qualifications.

Exactly what Im worried about.

 

 

 

 

This is something you can worry about 5 years down the track. You've just finished school or something right?

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I love my job, would like to advance some more, but it's gotten very hard in these days of Q.A. to do a job that you don't have qualifications for, no matter how good you are.

 

I'm stuck where I am in low-level support until I can get qualifications.

Exactly what Im worried about.

 

 

 

 

This is something you can worry about 5 years down the track. You've just finished school or something right?

 

See ... nah.. worry about it now. Don't leave it until you've fucked around for 5 years.

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See ... nah.. worry about it now. Don't leave it until you've fucked around for 5 years.

This. I would worry about it now, and ill tell you why.

 

Ive been self-employed since i was 15, im now 24, over the years, Ive built/upgraded/replaced countless systems, even done countless virus removals,

so many in fact, the first year i started doing it, i earned myself $8k which is by any means extremely nice pocket money doing something i enjoy vs. doing something

i dont. In the past 4 years, i've earnt somewhere between $15k to $22k per year (profit), now keeping in mind i don't usually service business's (extremely rare,

helped 2 business so far, and i only got asked to, cause their usual people where unavailable at the time, and they couldn't get anyone to come in on that day and get their systems

running again), only the local people in my surrounding suburbs here in Adelaide, and people in Coober Pedy (small outback mining town, about 2k people).

 

Last year i decided to finally get qualified, so i could start servicing local business who require (demand) only people with qualifications touch/fix/maintain their systems,

so last year i completed cert 3 in IT, this year ill be doing cert 4.

 

While i was doing cert 3 at adelaide city tafe, In a talk with two of the lecturers, who asked about what i do outside tafe, how i got into IT, plans for the future etc, when

i told them the extent of my current experience, they both agreed i didnt have any "real world experience" (wtf, so being self employed counts for nothing?!?) that business

are really after....

 

Both of those lecturers said to myself, and everyone else in the class, that realistically, the vast majority end up as lvl1 tech support for ~3-5 years, before maybe

making it into a lvl2 tech support role, and after 2-4 more years as lvl2 tech support, thats the type of minimum experience they prefer when looking for suitable job

candidates..

 

Its annoying, but if its what you want to do, go for it, you will eventually get there, even if you end up having to jump thru a thousand hoops to do it..

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I love my job, would like to advance some more, but it's gotten very hard in these days of Q.A. to do a job that you don't have qualifications for, no matter how good you are.

 

I'm stuck where I am in low-level support until I can get qualifications.

Exactly what Im worried about.

 

 

 

 

This is something you can worry about 5 years down the track. You've just finished school or something right?

 

21 at the moment.

After college I started working full time in a retail setting and now I do stock control.

IT has always been what i've wanted to do, but the last few years i've just spent being a clown. The usual teenage alcoholism, followed by a car that costs me far to much money to maintain.

Stopped drinking, selling my car and looking to start my career now :)

 

It seems to be the expectation that you get a level 1 support job and sit there till someone wants to offer you something else. Doesn't really seem the most effective way of doing things but I guess it does its job of weeding out people who are unsuitable for anything more.

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I love my job, would like to advance some more, but it's gotten very hard in these days of Q.A. to do a job that you don't have qualifications for, no matter how good you are.

 

I'm stuck where I am in low-level support until I can get qualifications.

Exactly what Im worried about.

 

 

 

 

This is something you can worry about 5 years down the track. You've just finished school or something right?

 

21 at the moment.

After college I started working full time in a retail setting and now I do stock control.

IT has always been what i've wanted to do, but the last few years i've just spent being a clown. The usual teenage alcoholism, followed by a car that costs me far to much money to maintain.

Stopped drinking, selling my car and looking to start my career now :)

 

It seems to be the expectation that you get a level 1 support job and sit there till someone wants to offer you something else. Doesn't really seem the most effective way of doing things but I guess it does its job of weeding out people who are unsuitable for anything more.

 

 

What did you do at college? Whilst I do agree with most people here about getting all your pieces of paper straight away, Its useless if you don't enjoy the work or if your not cut out for it. And to the people expecting to get a lvl 1 support role and just sit there untill somone offers somthing all I can say is wow. Life must be pretty easy for them if expect with no chasing and no hard work to just be handed a promotion! If I had anyone on my team like that your definitely right I'd be weeding those types of people out and letting them find other work.

 

btw I've just turned 21 too :P

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What did you do at college? Whilst I do agree with most people here about getting all your pieces of paper straight away, Its useless if you don't enjoy the work or if your not cut out for it. And to the people expecting to get a lvl 1 support role and just sit there untill somone offers somthing all I can say is wow. Life must be pretty easy for them if expect with no chasing and no hard work to just be handed a promotion! If I had anyone on my team like that your definitely right I'd be weeding those types of people out and letting them find other work.

 

btw I've just turned 21 too :P

I think the point was not waiting till a better job/promotion gets handed to you, that the expectation is that, you do lvl 1 support for around 3 years min, then if a lvl 2 job opening comes up,

You apply for it, but your chances of getting it without 3yrs~ exp is extremely low, and once your in lvl 2 support a for a few years, thats enough experiance to get you into other types of IT jobs if you get what im trying to say.

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I've applied for remote support position 3 times, and three times they knocked me back because I didn't have qualifications, even though I have 5 years experience in the field.

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I've applied for remote support position 3 times, and three times they knocked me back because I didn't have qualifications, even though I have 5 years experience in the field.

 

You work in education though right?

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Well, I don't think Education is the issue, but rather the public sector in general. They reeally can't offer too much flexibility in these matters, I could probably get a decent job in the private sector if I tried.

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