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Redhatter

Who here runs IPv6?

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I've been going through the video footage from LCA2011 that I'm downloading.

 

In particular, I've been looking at the keynote speech by Geoff Huston and his talk on the 'IPocalypse" (I believe Mark Pesce coined that term in his controversial keynote on Friday). The full keynote can be viewed here.

 

I've uploaded some small snippets of the keynote here (Speex CODEC), and I've already contacted my ISP last night about this. It seems we're about to see an IPv4 crunch happen, getting a static IP will get more difficult from here on in, and the days of the ISP-wide NAT are almost here for us in Australia.

 

What are people around here doing about moving to IPv6?

 

Edit: posted a dumbed down explanation of the situation as I understand it. A shortened version of this was to be sent in to the WIA National News service, but I didn't want to oversimplify the issue, or get too technical.

Edited by Redhatter

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Building a data center chain at the moment, we're going IPV.6 from the get go, which being we are cloud oriented will mean our customers going that route as well over time.

 

IPV.4 has served us well but the address space was near exhausted until NAT came along but it's only a band-aid really and amongst other things makes remote access and duplicate addresses all very annoying when V.6 with all that address space gets rid of it all.

 

The downside of course is that only the truly autistic or whatever are going to be able to remember V.6 addresses, but that's what copy and paste is for.

 

I haven't seen it yet but it seems to me there might be a way to use a Tinyurl type approach to that though, never had time to follow it through, building next generation data centers is exciting but also exhausting ;)

 

The most resistant seem to be the ISPs, and having run a big ISP I can understand why.

 

Not all of them though, the better ones see the need.

 

There is going to be an ongoing problem with legacy equipment for quite a while though, plenty of old non-V6 routers still endure, so translation will remain for a while.

 

Cheers

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Yeah, been bugging my ISP for a couple of years now. Like chrisg said, they've been highly resistant to my queries.

 

Having done a lot of work with DNS myself, I can fully understand why big organisations find IPv6 scary, but it's one of those things they're going to have to tackle sooner or later anyway. Those that take the initiative now will feel the least pain when the crunch comes.

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The most important reason for getting IPv6 is so you can access the IPv6 only websites that will soon be populating the web.

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Good to know I'm not alone in this.

 

For what it's worth :-

stuartl@vk4mslp2 ~ $ host -t AAAA forums.atomicmpc.com.au
forums.atomicmpc.com.au has no AAAA record

I've just started using the xs4all NNTP server on IPv6, previously I stuck to Google Groups, but I really wasn't happy with the web interface for posting. At least with this, I can use whatever I choose, and if I need to look further back in time, there's still Google Groups if needed.

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I'm thinking of purchasing a second TP-LINK TL-WR1043ND to try playing with some custom WRT firmware for IPv6 support.

 

Using my Cable modem, I can have 2 internal networks using a switch.

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It seems we're about to see an IPv4 crunch happen, getting a static IP will get more difficult from here on in, and the days of the ISP-wide NAT are almost here for us in Australia.

 

What are people around here doing about moving to IPv6?

i guess youre saying this ISP wide NAT business would be a stop gap solution before we move over to IPv6.

 

help me understand. would this mean that you share a real WAN IP with randoms but your routers' WAN IP is actually on a private subnet and the ISP does some fancy port-juggling bullshit behind the scenes, or ?

 

whatever it is, why is it bad?

Edited by @~thehung

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It seems we're about to see an IPv4 crunch happen, getting a static IP will get more difficult from here on in, and the days of the ISP-wide NAT are almost here for us in Australia.

 

What are people around here doing about moving to IPv6?

i guess youre saying this ISP wide NAT business would be a stop gap solution before we move over to IPv6.

 

help me understand. would this mean that you share a real WAN IP with randoms but your routers' WAN IP is actually on a private subnet and the ISP does some fancy port-juggling bullshit behind the scenes, or ?

 

whatever it is, why is it bad?

 

I'm going to start by assuming you've never had to write software or configure hardware that needs to be contacted directly by the outside world.

 

Carrier-grade or ISP-wide NAT would be, as you suggest, the ISP has a handful of public IP addresses that it uses for the outside facing world, and yes, you'd get an address allocated out of the 10.0.0.0/8, 172.16.0.0/12 or 192.168.0.0/16 subnets.

 

How does it work? Well, it rashons out port space on the outward-facing side of the NAT. Each connection requires a source port at the originating end for the replies to be sent to. This is usually allocated at random, but it must be unique for each connection. When you're sharing an IP address with other users, you're now competing with them for ports.

 

There are only 65536 ports. If 64 other users sharing the same IP address decide to launch Bit-Torrent and open up 1024 connections each, you're stuffed. No soup for you. It's also worth noting that web browsers often open multiple connections in parallel when loading individual page elements.

 

The problem is worse for any software which must be directly contactable from outside. I've got two boxes here that I provide SSH access to for application testing. I provide direct access via IPv6, but if they're on a v4 only connection, they can't directly access these boxes. So I've had to set up port forwards. Now luckily for SSH, I can tell it to use a different port. So my main webserver's SSH port occupies 22/tcp. The test boxes occupy ports 2207 and 2208 so they can be directly contacted. All good.

 

Now suppose the device you need to port-forward, cannot change its port number? I believe many SIP (VoIP) services come under this category. In a word, you're stuffed. Unless you can force one of the devices to use another port, you cannot have two devices sharing the same IP address.

 

Now, put that in the context of above, where a number of users want to open a lot of connections as well. Yes, those forwarded ports are competing for the same port space as your pirate movie buff down the road. It's a nasty situation.

 

Worse, because the IP is shared, how does an application externally know who you are? Spam is going to get worse as it becomes more difficult to track down the offender as they've got a nice big NAT to hide behind. Websites can no longer rely on the IP address of the user to determine whether you logged in already. (This is already bad enough with dynamic IPs, another stop-gap measure!) And you can expect that with all the extra load of NAT devices trying to figure out what port to give to a connection, you can expect things to slow down.

 

Meanwhile, none of these hassles exist in IPv6… yet. I don't see it happening for a while. Maybe if we start space exploration and somehow get a means of exchanging data between planets/solar systems that's viable from a latency point-of-view it might be an issue. I strongly suspect we'll be relying on something akin to UUCP though in the medium term, even between Earth and Mars. TCP/IP doesn't like half-hour long latencies, so perhaps we're safe with 128 bits of address space.

 

In addition, IPv6 is much more adept at handling the sorts of real-time streaming that we have today. It also handles mobile roaming a lot better. Back in 1973 you could not fit a computer in the palm of your hand and walk around town with it! You can today. We need a IP protocol that's designed for today's use cases, not yesterdays. IPv6 is therefore a much better solution than IPv4 in this scenario.

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UUCP stands for Unix-to-Unix Copy and was a serial-line protocol for transferring data and mail between two (traditionally Unix) systems.

 

Once the Internet came along, SLIP replaced it, and PPP replaced SLIP soon thereafter.

 

I don't know of a dial-up ISP that offers SLIP, I know iTel did once a long time ago. Then again, back then you could also dial up to the Internet using a VT100 (or emulator such as HyperTerminal) and browse using lynx and PINE over the modem link. I think that went when they upgraded their systems some years back. I don't even know what their dial-in number is now.

 

Whatever they use to connect two planets together, it won't be TCP/IP unless they can overcome the "light takes 20 minutes to get there" problem (radio travels at the speed of light). TCP/IP over a satellite link is pretty crappy without some serious hacking to make it work. 40 minute round-trip-times would make it unworkable. So whatever we use, it's going to be more like UUCP in that, you connect, transfer data in batches, then disconnect, not like the Internet where you send a request, receive a reply, acknowledge, receive more replies, …etc.

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(I believe Mark Pesce coined that term in his controversial keynote on Friday).

False..this term has been around for..as far as I can remember, at least 2 years..

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Ahh well, maybe it has. There's also the unrelated but confusingly similar term, "iPocalypse" I noticed when searching around, referring to issues with iTunes.

 

But it was during Mark Pesce's keynote that I remember encountering it first… specifically on the closing slide (where he blames Vinton Cerf — a little bit tongue in cheek of course).

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It would have been better if they started getting people used to this by using more ipv4 mapped ipv6 addressess, at least they would be easier to remember, and that would be all you would need for an internal network at home.

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Well, I just upgraded my router firmware so now it supports IPv6.

 

But, I cant see a point :)

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I will be on ipv6 as soon as the internode mirrors and iView are available without contributing to my quota. Which apparently may or may not happen...

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Had a chat to innet this week, moving house so moving service. They will be V.6 very shortly now.

 

I'd guess they and 'node will be the first in Oz, very innovative companies.

 

Cheers

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Message-ID: <4D5893E4.2000501@gentoo.org>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:31:00 +1000
From: Stuart Longland <redhatter@gentoo.org>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20110114 Lightning/1.0b3pre Thunderbird/3.1.7
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: SEQ Telco Helpdesk <…>
Subject: Re: Horizon Networks ADSL2+ enquiry (seq)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 11/23/10 08:09, Stuart Longland wrote:
>> *	 we do not have native ipv6 available on those services. 
> 
> That's a shame.  We get by with tunnelled IPv6, but one of these days
> you will need to offer IPv6 as IPv4 is discontinued due to its severe
> address space limitations.

A heads-up on this.  As of a few weeks ago, the Internet Assigned
Numbers Authority is officially _out_ of addresses.  All free IPv4
addresses are now in the hands of the regional internet registries.

We are now competing against the rapidly growing markets of China and
India for address space.  In all probability, we'll see exhaustion of
this pool *within the next year*.

What are you going to do as an ISP when this happens?  Take our static
IP addresses off us and put us on carrier NAT?  Put up a "no vacancy"
sign?  If everyone does the former I can see us drowning in a sea of
spam in the near future.  I can't see the latter being good for business
either.

Before IPv6 was a "nice to have".  In light of the above, I now consider
it a requirement for the long-term continuation of any new service.
Should I ever find myself behind carrier NAT, I will be forced to break
any contractual agreement and take my business elsewhere.

Internode currently are the only ISP I'm aware of that offers native
IPv6.  I hear rumours that iiNet are moving that way.  Does iTel wish to
be a IPv4-only sheep or a IPv6 shepherd?

Regards,
-- 
Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL)	  .'''.
Gentoo Linux/MIPS Cobalt and Docs Developer  '.'` :
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   .'.'
http://dev.gentoo.org/~redhatter			 :.'

I haven't lost my mind...
  ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.

I'll see where that gets me.

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A bit pretentious RedHatter, but I really find it hard to fault you for that. Let us know how it goes.

 

Rob.

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A bit pretentious Redhatter, but I really find it hard to fault you for that. Let us know how it goes.

 

Rob.

Quote fixed; watch your shift key.

 

Maybe, but this is a question that needs to be answered. We are looking to move to ADSL2 as the uplink on our 512/128kbps ADSL link is getting to be a bottleneck. The move to ADSL2 necessitates a change of IPv4 address, but at least it will still be static. We require the IPv4 address to be a static, publicly routable IP address as I run a publicly visible web and mail server on the static IP address attached to our ADSL link.

 

I do not want to sign a contract with iTel, and suddenly discover 6 months into it that they want to take that address off me and give me a private IP address behind carrier NAT. Nor do I want to discover that I've left it too long, and they're out of IP addresses, thus it's not possible for us to move to ADSL2.

 

I'd sooner go through the pain of switching ISPs now, than wait until we're forced. If we do, we'll be looking in the direction of Internode and maybe iiNet for their IPv6-enabled plans.

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Depends on your service area I suppose, I'm betting both will be V.6 pretty soon.

 

Cheers

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Ahh well, maybe it has. There's also the unrelated but confusingly similar term, "iPocalypse" I noticed when searching around, referring to issues with iTunes.

 

But it was during Mark Pesce's keynote that I remember encountering it first… specifically on the closing slide (where he blames Vinton Cerf — a little bit tongue in cheek of course).

Posted Image

 

That's the slide where I remember seeing the term first.

 

Conclusion: The Next Billion Seconds

 

A billion seconds ago, Linux did not exist. The personal computer was an expensive toy. The Internet – well, one of my friends is the sysadmin who got HP onto UUCP – this was before the Internet became pervasive – and he remembers updating his /etc/hosts file weekly – by hand. Every machine on the Internet could be found within a single file, that could be printed out on two sheets of greenbar. A billion seconds later, and we’re a few days away from IPocalypse, the total allocation of the IPv4 number space.

 

Something is going on.

http://blog.futurestreetconsulting.com/201.../smoke-signals/ has the transcript and slides from the presentation. Linux Australia have decided they will upload the video of the keynote for those who weren't there.

Edited by Redhatter

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Well, I set up ipv6 for our home connection over the weekend. Seems to be working fine, but there's little content that I get via v6. Basically only Google stuff, and Facebook when using the proper URL.

 

Was fairly painless for me, a Linux sysadmin, to set up on my openWRT router. OS x, windows 7 and Ubuntu got an ipv6 address without further configuration, had to set up manual DNS servers for my debian machine, but that's probably my fault for doing funky things. Edit: Android worked with cyanohenmod, my gtablet and wife's legend running custom Roms. Not sure about stock roms.

 

And I think internode unmetered mirrors are fine, as they're only accessible via ipv4, so remain unmetered.

Edited by pwarren

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