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bowiee

Reverse Racism

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That's right kids, only in the Green Room can you make a statement, refuse to discuss any larger ramifications of it, and then cry about how you were forced to call yourself a racist. It's a wonder we have anyone left in here at all.

Or to put it another way, to stick to the original question and refuse to be drawn away from it.
How very literal minded of you. It is almost fun to picture you as Virt, and David as Leo.

 

Hey man... I ain't small, nor am I Jesus.

 

Plus I also smell of manliness, not that weird sickly smell of geeks who haven't seen sunshine for a while.

 

Oh hai David!

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After 40 years ? yep I am kinda curious.

Right, so lets say for example that after having the land you owned for the history of your people taken from you, knowing that your grandparents were shot for sport, your parents were often locked up if seen during the hours of darkness, and then you were forcibly taken from your parents, how long would it take to forgive the government and to trust them, enough to be able to take up any offers they might have - remembering that last time they came they took you away from your family and your home?

 

Pick a number, any number.

 

EDIT: typo

 

So you have to trust the government to walk into a centerlink office and apply for abstudy, even though you were not even born when those events took place.

 

Um. Yes.

You think a regular Chinese-descended Australian would trust a store known to be operated by a white-power skinhead, even though his family was never themselves bashed?

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Now things are just getting nasty.

You wait until I claim anti-semitism.

 

Just you wait...

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Well abstudy was introduced in 1969 giving the disadvantaged a chance to improve themselves, so your saying that after all this time is is a failure.

No, I am saying that abstudy is merely a part of the process, not the be-all and end-all. I have not called it a failure anywhere.

 

And that the generations since then who have taken advantage of abstudy are no better off. Then I submit that there needs to be a royal inquiry into why successive governments have wasted money funding it.

Again, no, I've not said that. It has vastly improved things. But nor has it entirely fixed the underlying issues of disadvantage. Education is only a part of bigger picture, and it's a picture that is still being drawn.

 

If however abstudy has had even some success over the last 40 years, then why do we have to have jobs advertised for one particular race only. And in the light of that would said advertisement be racist.

Because those kind of job programs are just as important as education programs like abstudy. I don't think you understand the profound disadvantage many sectors of the indigenous population find themselves under.

 

It's kind of like the whole 'give a man a fish' thing. And yeah, if you want, you can argue that positively selecting for indigenous people when it comes to employment is effectively 'giving them a fish' not 'teaching them to fish' (Gods, I hope this makes sense!). But the importance of these kinds of programs cannot be measured in a single generation. We can help youth with abstudy, but we also need to make sure that younger children find themselves in a normal family environment - they need to see and understand at a basic level that they are employable and that employment is a good thing; to that end, job programs don't just help the person employed, they help their families and communities.

 

And good on them, but would you feel better getting the job on your own merits, or would you lose some esteem if it were just handed to you because of skin colour ? By all means help them find a job but let it be because they had the qualifications they have attained and against others of similar skills applying for that job. Otherwise you risk robbing them of what little self esteem they may have built up during training.

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Otherwise you risk robbing them of what little self esteem they may have built up during training.

I hope you're not trying to sound as condescending as that comes across as.

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Well abstudy was introduced in 1969 giving the disadvantaged a chance to improve themselves, so your saying that after all this time is is a failure.

No, I am saying that abstudy is merely a part of the process, not the be-all and end-all. I have not called it a failure anywhere.

 

And that the generations since then who have taken advantage of abstudy are no better off. Then I submit that there needs to be a royal inquiry into why successive governments have wasted money funding it.

Again, no, I've not said that. It has vastly improved things. But nor has it entirely fixed the underlying issues of disadvantage. Education is only a part of bigger picture, and it's a picture that is still being drawn.

 

If however abstudy has had even some success over the last 40 years, then why do we have to have jobs advertised for one particular race only. And in the light of that would said advertisement be racist.

Because those kind of job programs are just as important as education programs like abstudy. I don't think you understand the profound disadvantage many sectors of the indigenous population find themselves under.

 

It's kind of like the whole 'give a man a fish' thing. And yeah, if you want, you can argue that positively selecting for indigenous people when it comes to employment is effectively 'giving them a fish' not 'teaching them to fish' (Gods, I hope this makes sense!). But the importance of these kinds of programs cannot be measured in a single generation. We can help youth with abstudy, but we also need to make sure that younger children find themselves in a normal family environment - they need to see and understand at a basic level that they are employable and that employment is a good thing; to that end, job programs don't just help the person employed, they help their families and communities.

 

And good on them, but would you feel better getting the job on your own merits, or would you lose some esteem if it were just handed to you because of skin colour ? By all means help them find a job but let it be because they had the qualifications they have attained and against others of similar skills applying for that job. Otherwise you risk robbing them of what little self esteem they may have built up during training.

 

Pretty sure if you can't afford a vegemite sandwich and someone throws you a cracker, self esteem doesn't come in to play.

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You think a regular Chinese-descended Australian would trust a store known to be operated by a white-power skinhead, even though his family was never themselves bashed?

Apples and oranges, a faceless government department is different to a vitriolic individual in a store.

 

The drones in Centrelink don't know or care who you are. The colour of your skin is just a tick in a different box to them.

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Otherwise you risk robbing them of what little self esteem they may have built up during training.

I hope you're not trying to sound as condescending as that comes across as.

 

No NO Please believe me that was not my intent, I mean they would have built up self esteem by doing the training, then they get offered the job not because of those hard earned skills but because of their skin colour. If that were me I would feel deflated. However if I got the job because I was the most qualified that would boost my self esteem through the roof. Edited by bowiee

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You think a regular Chinese-descended Australian would trust a store known to be operated by a white-power skinhead, even though his family was never themselves bashed?

Apples and oranges, a faceless government department is different to a vitriolic individual in a store.

 

The drones in Centrelink don't know or care who you are. The colour of your skin is just a tick in a different box to them.

 

The analogy isn't perfect, granted. I'm just saying that just like those of us who still dream of buying a house on a quarter-acre block with a single income, the current Aboriginal generation has to wait for prior generations to die before the past can truly be put behind them and the reality of the present can come to the fore. If (and I don't know if this is true) Aboriginal leaders perpetuate the idea that the "Government is bad", then it's unrealistic to expect their communities to trust the government until such attitudes have been superseded.

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You think a regular Chinese-descended Australian would trust a store known to be operated by a white-power skinhead, even though his family was never themselves bashed?

Apples and oranges, a faceless government department is different to a vitriolic individual in a store.

 

The drones in Centrelink don't know or care who you are. The colour of your skin is just a tick in a different box to them.

 

I'm sure if you tried, really really hard, you could be more wrong, but you would have to really put in some hours to be more wrong than your above statement.

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Otherwise you risk robbing them of what little self esteem they may have built up during training.

I hope you're not trying to sound as condescending as that comes across as.

 

No NO Please believe me that was not my intent, I mean they would have built up self esteem by doing the training, then they get offered the job not because of those hard earned skills but because of their skin colour. If that were me I would feel deflated. However if I got the job because I was the most qualified that would boost my self esteem through the roof.

 

If their self-esteem is that fragile (and once again, I don't know if this is the case), then another way to see it is that their self-esteem will be put at risk by participating in a truly competitive job market - that rejection will be too big a setback.

 

So you're back to square 1, and you have to go back to first principles: do you want more Aboriginals working or not? If so, what's the best way to *actually get them into work*? If this is the most practicable way, then there's nothing to do but put the system in place.

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the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

As a person of European descent I am quite certain the the job advert in the OP adheres to that definition.

 

Rob.

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Hey man... I ain't small,

That's not what your partner said.

 

*wiggles little finger*

 

It wasn't that I was small, it's that you mother was too big :)

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Hey man... I ain't small,

That's not what your partner said.

 

*wiggles little finger*

 

 

She should've employed a black fella.

 

THAT'S a job we're better equipped for!

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Hey man... I ain't small,

That's not what your partner said.

 

*wiggles little finger*

 

 

She should've employed a black fella.

 

THAT'S a job we're better equipped for!

 

Ok, that made me laugh.

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Hey man... I ain't small,

That's not what your partner said.

 

*wiggles little finger*

 

 

She should've employed a black fella.

 

THAT'S a job we're better equipped for!

 

Mate I'm Jewish. We cut 10% off so you don't feel inadequate.

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Hey man... I ain't small,

That's not what your partner said.

 

*wiggles little finger*

 

 

She should've employed a black fella.

 

THAT'S a job we're better equipped for!

 

Mate I'm Jewish. We cut 10% off so you don't feel inadequate.

 

And that made me laugh even more.

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Hey man... I ain't small,

That's not what your partner said.

 

*wiggles little finger*

 

 

She should've employed a black fella.

 

THAT'S a job we're better equipped for!

 

Mate I'm Jewish. We cut 10% off so you don't feel inadequate.

 

Pictures or its not true.

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Hey man... I ain't small,

That's not what your partner said.

 

*wiggles little finger*

 

 

She should've employed a black fella.

 

THAT'S a job we're better equipped for!

 

Mate I'm Jewish. We cut 10% off so you don't feel inadequate.

 

Pictures or its not true.

 

You want to see penis?

 

A fairly odd request from a straight man...

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the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

As a person of European descent I am quite certain the the job advert in the OP adheres to that definition.

 

Rob.

 

Robzy, I refer you to my prior post which describes in brief how that Convention was translated into Australian law.

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Hey man... I ain't small,

That's not what your partner said.

 

*wiggles little finger*

 

 

She should've employed a black fella.

 

THAT'S a job we're better equipped for!

 

Mate I'm Jewish. We cut 10% off so you don't feel inadequate.

 

Pictures or its not true.

 

You want to see penis?

 

A fairly odd request from a straight man...

 

A straight and curious/strange man :P

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People can hire whoever the hell they want as far as I am concerned. If it's the government then it's the business of the public, if not then it's not.

Edited by fajw

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