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bowiee

Reverse Racism

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if you are intimating that i am uninformed i'd appreciate some details on my lack of clarity

Where would you like me to start?

 

wherever your abilities allow really

 

Perhaps also if you share your wider perspective on so called 'reverse racism' I can direct you to the postings by either myself or others, which outline the topic very well. Just let me know when I'm typing too fast, and I'll slow down for you.

 

 

enough of patronising please, it doesn't advance your cause at all

 

being an import doesn't bestow greater appreciation of the local situation, any more than an inflated sense of self importance

 

fwiw i have lived here all my life, and as such this is my country as much as any other australian, regardless of where my relatives originated (and for a few generations it was here too)

 

i didn't steal this land from the indigene, nor do i approve of the means by which it was acquired, but i am not going to feel guilty about making the most of my opportunities

 

i lost my father just after i turned 17 and admittedly thanks to gough i was educated for "free" which i have since repaid many times over, but i would have worked hard for a scholarship if that was my only option

 

i was not born into a position of privilege or power, but acknowledge that i got (and get) a better deal as a white boy than i would as a black one - i spent 4 years as a young boy living in darwin and have seen racism far too close at hand; i am considerably more "small L" liberal than my parents, but watched the impossibility of an ancient culture being forced to assimilate with "western" life, and succumbing to booze and petty violence, introduced disease and general hopelessness borne of loss of their culture and removal from their families by well meaning but ignorant patronising white people

 

i have personally been the victim of racial violence from black people who resented my colour when i had done nothing more provocative than being that colour, so don't patronise me about what drives racism

equally i have had some great times with black people, because my experience shows that some people are arseholes and others are not, and their skin colour is usually the least of obvious differences

 

the attempt to rectify past injustice is doubtless well meaning, but i resent being patronised by some apparatchik of a federal government whose policies reek of try hard, and demonstrate a sad lack of actual effect

 

i think the indigenous population have had and continue to have a rough deal; i see the majority of government interference in that situation to be an embarrassing continuation of the politics of discrimination and attempted appeasement of a guilt which can't actually be undone

 

Firstly, sorry to hear about your father, that must have been incredibly hard. I'm 33 and really worry about losing my parents as they get older.

 

I'd really welcome your thoughts on how you think we should go forward, and impart real progress for all our people.

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my p.o.v however little and not meaning much:

anyone can do any job if they want its just aiming for it and taking it.

im not racist but i think they should have worded the advertisment a lil different ie: suit torres strait islander or abboriginal and just chosen quietly hint hint.

i agree if the ad said white people only the news would be doing a story on it now.

seeing the cause i understand why they worded the way they did, at the end of the day i can sleep letting one job slide for all the shit some of our ancestors done to them not that it has anything to do with us.

 

p/s this is coming from an uneducated man who went to year 12 so poke fun at bad spelling/grammar.

(i chose to leave and love my job/life).

Edited by AMD AKIMBO

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Uh hem.

 

I am asking, very nicely, that everyone chill the fuck out please and move the topic of people's posting away from who went to school where and didn't and whatnot unless it is of importance to the point you are trying to make.

 

Tearing someone else down for an arts degree or what not just makes you look like a complete dick.

Edited by The Tick

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You've outlined throughout your posts within this thread that you lack any understanding of the real social issues which affect many Australians

Nonsense.

 

You can plainly see that I disagree with the consensus on how to deal with these issues, and that I lack the degree of sympathy that most have towards the Aboriginals. This is my prerogative.

 

You can call me an insensitive heartless bastard if you like. Go ahead. It's probably true.

 

That said, no amount of education is going to suddenly make me think that affirmative action furthers society in any meaningful way.

 

Questioning your intelligence would be a personal attack, which isn't my style.

So you're a hard lefty AND a liar. Good show.

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Okay guys.

 

We are all aware this is a touchy topic and one people will have very strong feelings on.

 

Please be aware that you are debating in a text medium and it is very easy to misconstrue things. Also be reminded that the ability to express oneself is not something that comes naturally to many people - and is not always evidence of intelligence or education - especially in the essentially bland context we find ourselves.

 

Take a moment in a lotus position examining your chakras and expelling your ley lines - or whatever comes naturally to you. :)

 

Then take just a moment to examine your post for signs of angst, anger or attitude before hitting the submit button.

 

Life suddenly becomes just that little bit sweeter for all concerned.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled debate...

 

:D

Edited by Chaos.Lady

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My sister in law is in first year social work, and is THE FUCKING AUTHORITY on refugees, aboriginals, etc.

Nice work...Intelligence by proxy.

 

You missed the sarcasm (admittedly is wasn't too obvious):

 

"She believes that she is THE FUCKING AUTHORITY...etc etc"

 

That makes more sense given the context.

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Firstly, sorry to hear about your father, that must have been incredibly hard. I'm 33 and really worry about losing my parents as they get older.

 

I'd really welcome your thoughts on how you think we should go forward, and impart real progress for all our people.

thx for your kind sympathies

 

fuck man, if i had the magic to right the wrongs visited upon the aboriginal population i'd have applied for your job

 

what i am stating repeatedly is that active discrimination for the advancement of an oppressed part of the population is not a realistic means of reversal of the process of generations of maltreatment

 

and at least some of that problem is the mind-set of despair and lack of ability that creates; but propping up people by a pretend "leg up" is not the same as them standing tall, and it is impossible to give people self respect, only to show them respect

 

 

so make me less contrary by showing some of that respect to everyone, eh ?

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my p.o.v however little and not meaning much:

anyone can do any job if they want its just aiming for it and taking it.

im not racist but i think they should have worded the advertisment a lil different ie: suit torres strait islander or abboriginal and just chosen quietly hint hint.

i agree if the ad said white people only the news would be doing a story on it now.

seeing the cause i understand why they worded the way they did, at the end of the day i can sleep letting one job slide for all the shit some of our ancestors done to them not that it has anything to do with us.

 

p/s this is coming from an uneducated man who went to year 12 so poke fun at bad spelling/grammar.

(i chose to leave and love my job/life).

Firstly AMD AKIMBO, you are not uneducated - lots of people will try and bring you down right through your life, so best not to do it to yourself too :)

 

Education is not about bits of paper (you can get plenty of those off the internet), its about engaging with an idea, reviewing the evidence and making an informed decision.

 

I would say you're very well educated.

 

Firstly, sorry to hear about your father, that must have been incredibly hard. I'm 33 and really worry about losing my parents as they get older.

 

I'd really welcome your thoughts on how you think we should go forward, and impart real progress for all our people.

thx for your kind sympathies

 

fuck man, if i had the magic to right the wrongs visited upon the aboriginal population i'd have applied for your job

 

what i am stating repeatedly is that active discrimination for the advancement of an oppressed part of the population is not a realistic means of reversal of the process of generations of maltreatment

 

and at least some of that problem is the mind-set of despair and lack of ability that creates; but propping up people by a pretend "leg up" is not the same as them standing tall, and it is impossible to give people self respect, only to show them respect

 

 

so make me less contrary by showing some of that respect to everyone, eh ?

 

And you're right, I'm not saying that this is the answer, what I am promoting is that this is a step towards finding the right answer and a worthwhile activity. So I'm not sure of the context that the OP was in, in terms of the organization or what they do etc. Where I work we offer scholarships, to encourage and enable both Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians to become teachers. Through historical reasons, not all Indigenous Australians are equipped to take up this opportunity (for example often English is a second language). So we have Assistant Teacher (AT) positions which act as a cultural liaison between the teachers and the students (typically these positions are in remote areas). Part of the plan is to equip our AT's to progress to teacher positions and further. We have a bunch of other things we do, but that's what I'm involved with. So I wouldn't see it as a hand out, rather its allowing people to realize their potential and assist them in overcoming some barriers (often barriers which 'we' have put there).

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what i am stating repeatedly is that active discrimination for the advancement of an oppressed part of the population is not a realistic means of reversal of the process of generations of maltreatment

 

and at least some of that problem is the mind-set of despair and lack of ability that creates; but propping up people by a pretend "leg up" is not the same as them standing tall, and it is impossible to give people self respect, only to show them respect

This times a thousand. Affirmative action just replaces despair with entitlement, an equally undesirable condition.

 

It's a fine line to tread.

Edited by SquallStrife

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Take a moment in a lotus position examining your chakras and expelling your ley lines - or whatever comes naturally to you. :)

I'm hoping a couch is okay - if I get into the lotus position I'm gonna need a surgeon to get out of it again

 

Point taken Chaos.Lady

 

 

 

what i am stating repeatedly is that active discrimination for the advancement of an oppressed part of the population is not a realistic means of reversal of the process of generations of maltreatment

 

and at least some of that problem is the mind-set of despair and lack of ability that creates; but propping up people by a pretend "leg up" is not the same as them standing tall, and it is impossible to give people self respect, only to show them respect

This times a thousand. Affirmative action just replaces despair with entitlement, an equally undesirable condition.

 

It's a fine line to tread.

 

Completely agree, a fine line indeed. It's all about fishing, if I can extend that metaphor, we might look to provide a net, but not a boat - so to speak. If people want the boat, its there, but they need to work for it.

 

An important part of affirmative action in my view, is that it can be useful for building a critical mass - which in my view is really important, particularly given the history in this area, and a number of false starts (at least in the organisation I'm with).

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And you're right, I'm not saying that this is the answer, what I am promoting is that this is a step towards finding the right answer and a worthwhile activity. So I'm not sure of the context that the OP was in, in terms of the organization or what they do etc. Where I work we offer scholarships, to encourage and enable both Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians to become teachers. Through historical reasons, not all Indigenous Australians are equipped to take up this opportunity (for example often English is a second language). So we have Assistant Teacher (AT) positions which act as a cultural liaison between the teachers and the students (typically these positions are in remote areas). Part of the plan is to equip our AT's to progress to teacher positions and further. We have a bunch of other things we do, but that's what I'm involved with. So I wouldn't see it as a hand out, rather its allowing people to realize their potential and assist them in overcoming some barriers (often barriers which 'we' have put there).

more power to you then

 

i get to see money thrown at the problem to encourage the production of paperwork showing that i am aware of the significant health issues that atsi face, and then treat other non-atsi with exactly the same problems differently

 

the laughable part of that approach to my experiences is that a significant proportion of people with exactly the same health issues are denied equality of service because they are not identified as atsi

 

so in that regard i am pissed at the idea that "equality" is so demonstrably and laughably unequal

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Take a moment in a lotus position examining your chakras and expelling your ley lines - or whatever comes naturally to you. :)

I'm hoping a couch is okay - if I get into the lotus position I'm gonna need a surgeon to get out of it again

 

Point taken Chaos.Lady

 

 

Hehe. Couch is fine. I'd need a couple of burly firemen to get me out of it as well. :D

 

Thanks hun.

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And that's a large problem, one we face at work also although in a different context. With our employees we're aware that their is potential for resentment, due to some of the programs/opportunities that are provided to Indigenous Australians. I'm unaware of it from a public perspective such as what you are, I don't doubt its there, just not on my radar so to speak. We're seeking to balance this with improving opportunities for all employees, essentially working towards being an employer of choice. With the idea that if people really enjoy where they work, and have plenty of opportunities to excel, they wont begrudge that there are some targeted programs.

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As long as Aboriginal Australians continue to die 16 years younger on average than the rest of us I will continue to support any measures to close that gap. Getting people into the workforce improves their health outcomes, so lets make jobs for them.

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im not racist but i think they should have worded the advertisment a lil different ie: suit torres strait islander or abboriginal and just chosen quietly hint hint.

Cliched prefix aside, what does that even mean? What kind of a job 'suits' someone from an ATSI - or any other ethnic - background?

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"We blacks know oppression well, but today it is our inexperience with freedom that holds us back almost as relentlessly as oppression once did. Out of this inexperience, for example, we miss the fact that racial preferences and disparate impact can only help us -- even if they were effective -- with a problem we no longer have. The problem that black firefighters had in New Haven was not discrimination; it was the fact that not a single black did well enough on the exam to gain promotion.

 

Today's 'black' problem is underdevelopment, not discrimination. Success in modernity will demand profound cultural changes -- changes in child-rearing, a restoration of marriage and family, a focus on academic rigor, a greater appreciation of entrepreneurialism and an embrace of individual development as the best road to group development.

 

Whites are embarrassed to speak forthrightly about black underdevelopment, and blacks are too proud to openly explore it for all to see. So, by unspoken agreement, we discuss black underdevelopment in a language of discrimination and injustice. We rejoin the exhausted affirmative action debate as if it really mattered, and we do not acknowledge that this underdevelopment is primarily a black responsibility."

 

Shelby Steele

Affirmative Action Is Just a Distraction

The Washington Post

July 26, 2009

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You know when I made my OP I was just asking what I thought was a simple question. I did not foresee it ending up 11 pages long and being so passionately debated, I still stand by my last comment in this thread.

 

I do not feel any need to comment further but I do hope the thread ends well, unlike so many other controversial threads in the past. I am sure I did not present my case as well as others here do in print, and as a result I am often misunderstood. I would just like to say that my intention was not to upset anyone or any race, but rather to try and present my opinion on this matter, which I have eventually done (though rather unskillfully). :)

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Well, as for the job at "Boy's Town College"... I'm not sure, but the staff and fundraisers and supporters of this College are probably not a majority of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander people. And they probably want people of those particular races to apply so that the best candidate for the job can win. And he or she will help show their people who give them money to operate that they ARE a supporter of equal oppurtunity and a multicultural employer. Which will help them win a prize/award/certificate, which will win them more grants of money from the government, or their fundraisers or their donaters. It may be that they have a certain task for that person to do, whereby it is helpful and beneficial to the jobs completion for them to be of that race. Apply if you want the job. They might not be able to find someone who meets all of their criteria.

Edited by Mudman

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I believe I was the one ranting about being recently single. Bring on the sisters! :P

 

Okay so I may accidently open a new can of worms here but I want people to think about this.

 

You are in a class. You are one of the smarter ones. There is a kid called Frank who is a little slower than everyone else. Assume an infinite amount of time at your disposal. And assume that Frank knows that you are nice and willing to help people.

 

Situation 1:

Frank asks you for help with the homework.

 

Situation 2:

The teacher tells you to help Frank with their homework.

 

In each situation, what do you do?

Assume you help Frank in each situation: How do you feel about helping Frank?

(I purposely leave the converse of this out because it has been discussed [how does frank feel])

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My thing? Well it was more for people to reflect on. If people want to discuss it go ahead.

 

I think you all get what I am trying to get people to think about.

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Constant smart-arse assertions that anyone not agreeing with their POV is "uneducated", and/or ignorant, and wonders why it annoys others. Hmmm.

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Middy, let's not stir it up, okay? All combatants debaters have realised they were getting a little heated and all is good now.

 

Okay?

 

OKAY?

 

Such a NICE boy. :)

Edited by Chaos.Lady

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