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hulkster

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I understand exactly where you're coming from there, and it was only really a half hearted offer as I know I couldn't provide any decent turn around time and I fail at grammar too. As you mentioned it is printed media where that can get you into trouble.

 

I have enjoyed the more freqent front page content so please do continue doing exactly whatever your doing in that department right now :)

 

Cheers!

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Its easy david, just post every article into the green room before print and let all the grammer nazis take care of it. :) :p

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7) Do you see yourself still here in 2 years time?

I hope so, although David keeps threatening to ban me, so I guess you never know :-p

Dont worry, he doesnt know what the best form of footy is, so you'll be safe.. :P

 

lol :-p

Just so long as nobody shows him how to do it - I do have the threat in writing, after all! :-p :-)

 

Its easy david, just post every article into the green room before print and let all the grammer nazis take care of it. :) :p

Truth-speaker :-)

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Its easy david, just post every article into the green room before print and let all the grammer nazis take care of it. :) :p

Truth-speaker :-)

 

That would mean going into the Green Room, though!

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Its easy david, just post every article into the green room before print and let all the grammer nazis take care of it. :) :p

Truth-speaker :-)

 

That would mean going into the Green Room, though!

 

Whats on your mind hawkeye? :p

 

Anyhoo, back on topic peoples!

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Its easy david, just post every article into the green room before print and let all the grammer nazis take care of it. :) :p

Truth-speaker :-)

 

That would mean going into the Green Room, though!

 

 

Just put waders on. The shit isn't THAT deep.

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Well, at the risk of showing how little I care (*waves at Virt*), I'd like to be a little smug here.

That is good news David, and I - and I'm sure everyone else here - would thank and congratulate you on successfully making the case to get some new investment back into Atomic.

 

Now, if you could just re-think your frequently stated attitude that ''people who visit the forums are not representative of the magazine readers, so their opinions are therefore invalid'', then collectively we'd be be able to acccelerate restoration of the forums and community.

 

I'm not suggesting you have to agree with me or any of the 'old time readers' whose opinions you are particularly dismissive of. However, think of this logically... Given you're discounting the feedback you get in your own feedback forums as 'unrepresentative', then how do you ever know what your readership thinks of the changes you're making...?

 

Atomic readership, forum traffic and site ranking levels are much lower than they were four years ago. While I always defer to an editor's right to exercise his judgement and take his magazine in whatever visionary direction he wants, the 'me with my views and damn others opinions' approach - in the midst of an overall magazine market downturn, rise of internet content and relentless employer pressure to cut costs - has not been working for you.

 

With your additional staffmember will come a fantastic opportunity to re-think the magazine's direction, and re-commit to the quality of the magazine.

Edited by Virtuoso

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1) Do you or did you at one stage subscribe to Atomic and if so, why?

I am a current subscriber, for how long I don't know but at least 4 years I believe. I subscribe because I support what Atomic has done and continues to attempt to do. Getting some of what I enjoy and find interesting is better than nothing.

 

2) If you don't subscribe anymore or never have,why not?

Originally because I had no stable income to spend on what was back then a significant investment (yes I was that broke).

 

3) What would it take to get you to subscribe again?

If I like the content a saving on the shelf price is all I need. Subscription prizes are just icing on the cake.

 

4) Roughly how long have you been visiting the forums?

Approximately 4 years.

 

5) How many hours a week would you spend on here?

Depends on if we count lurking then it would be practically the entire week. Active use under 2hrs a week.

 

6) How does that compare to 2 years ago?

Current activity is much lower than previous activity.

 

7) Do you see yourself still here in 2 years time?

Quite possibly.

 

8) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being the highest) rate your Atomic experience.

7.5, a lot of positives but a fair few negatives as well.

 

9) If you could change one thing about the mag or forums, what would it be?

Magazine - More zebra articles but I know he puts a lot of effort into the ones he does.

Forum - Hawkeye, like Dr Manhattan cannot change human nature.

 

10) And finally, who is/was your favorite writer for the Mag?

Ashton Mills without question.

 

 

As for the discussion that has been happening here I would like to illustrate a point that I think are worth being noted. It would seem from the anecdotal evidence presented on the forums (being I have no data of my own) and even from this thread alone there appears to be a beleif that the forum readership constitutes if not a majority a more important aspect of the Atomic audience. While if anything it suggests that a forum user can be more vocal than say a reader that picks up the magazine in a newsagent and that is it. In this thread 13 out of 17 respondents said they do not subscribe or plan to for their own reasons. So where is the magazine readership coming from them if the forum users are not buying the magazine?

 

The logic dictates that the magazine supports the forums, and sales/subscriptions supports the magazine. So without an active buying user base the forums would not exist, someone is providing this and it would appear to not be the forums user base. So in all honesty is it right to consider the forum user base the actual audience of the magazine and not just the most vocal base? So with all these varying shots at David for not listening or doing what someone wants, why does he have to listen at all beyond his own capacity for courtesy and wanting to field all opinions to bring a better experience to everyone? He said it himself, if the magazine didn't change there would be no magazine anymore and ergo there would be no forums. You can't have everything you want in this experience, I would rather have some than none at all.

 

So if you want to boil it down to a simple argument - if you don't vote, do you get to complain about the outcome of an election? I am sure that those who do not subscribe do not have their reasons and they are entitled to them, but I don't think it is fair to believe that the forum users are the ones who get to decide the fate of the magazine when their actual representation is rather weak.

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Forum members for any topic, games, magazines, martial arts, cars, music etc...always think they are the most important and central pivot of that topic's universe and that all non-forum opinions are invalid, old, or just plain wrong, simply because they are good patting each other on the back, or come to quick agreements etc. I have seen this on so many forums.

 

Funnily enough, I don't see that happening so much on Atomic. Atomic is more of a 'cults of personalities'...

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As for the discussion that has been happening here I would like to illustrate a point that I think are worth being noted. It would seem from the anecdotal evidence presented on the forums (being I have no data of my own) and even from this thread alone there appears to be a beleif that the forum readership constitutes if not a majority a more important aspect of the Atomic audience. While if anything it suggests that a forum user can be more vocal than say a reader that picks up the magazine in a newsagent and that is it. In this thread 13 out of 17 respondents said they do not subscribe or plan to for their own reasons. So where is the magazine readership coming from them if the forum users are not buying the magazine?

 

The logic dictates that the magazine supports the forums, and sales/subscriptions supports the magazine. So without an active buying user base the forums would not exist, someone is providing this and it would appear to not be the forums user base. So in all honesty is it right to consider the forum user base the actual audience of the magazine and not just the most vocal base? So with all these varying shots at David for not listening or doing what someone wants, why does he have to listen at all beyond his own capacity for courtesy and wanting to field all opinions to bring a better experience to everyone? He said it himself, if the magazine didn't change there would be no magazine anymore and ergo there would be no forums. You can't have everything you want in this experience, I would rather have some than none at all.

 

So if you want to boil it down to a simple argument - if you don't vote, do you get to complain about the outcome of an election? I am sure that those who do not subscribe do not have their reasons and they are entitled to them, but I don't think it is fair to believe that the forum users are the ones who get to decide the fate of the magazine when their actual representation is rather weak.

 

I think you're taking it the wrong way to be honest.

 

We don't read the magazine because of what it has become, no one is telling haymarket or DH to change it, just stating that we don't read it because it doesn't suit our interests now.

 

if you don't vote, do you get to complain about the outcome of an election?

I'm not sure what you're implying here, but alot of us are voting, with our wallets. How else can we do it? Threaten to buy the magazine until it changes?

 

Simple fact is, lots people came here for the tech, stayed for the people. I used to read the mag occasionally for the articles that were interesting, but not anymore, because I don't find them interesting. I like the writing style of lots of them, but the content I couldn't care less about.

 

Physical media is behind the pack by a long shot. When sandy came out, atomic only had time for a preview article and then they had to print, the next month we got the full sandy article, but by then the net was flooded with reviews and buying the magazine for that purpose became pointless. I'm not blaming atomic, just merely pointing out why some people stop reading magazines.

 

Just as an example here, a popular US magazine (it was sold over here, but I rarely saw it, although it is older than me and its quite possible its sales dropped off before I was born) called Cracked stopped making their magazine and went for a complete online experience, they still make money off ads and stuff, so its good for them.

 

Would it work for Atomic? I doubt it. But that would be due to the size of the American market (what cracked had behind it) and the Australian market (what atomic has behind it)

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1) Do you or did you at one stage subscribe to Atomic and if so, why?

I'm a current subscriber, and have subscribe intermittently in the past

 

 

2) If you don't subscribe anymore or never have,why not?

For a while there, I would have rather have had a PCA sub, but now I have both.

 

 

3) What would it take to get you to subscribe again?

N/A

 

 

4) Roughly how long have you been visiting the forums?

Since VToo

 

 

5) How many hours a week would you spend on here?

hard to quantify

 

 

6) How does that compare to 2 years ago?

About the same for me, probably don't actually POST as much.

 

 

7) Do you see yourself still here in 2 years time?

If it's still here, I guess so...

 

 

8) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being the highest) rate your Atomic experience.

8 sounds about right.

 

 

9) If you could change one thing about the mag or forums, what would it be?

more articles about pulling stuff apart.

 

 

10) And finally, who is/was your favorite writer for the Mag?

my favourite writer at the moment is Jake!!

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We don't read the magazine because of what it has become, no one is telling haymarket or DH to change it, just stating that we don't read it because it doesn't suit our interests now.

I'm not sure what you're implying here, but alot of us are voting, with our wallets. How else can we do it? Threaten to buy the magazine until it changes?

Pretty much the same question which dictates the same answer. The explanation that was given was the magazine was no longer selling with its tech based focus and a change needed to be made. As a result sales went up. People are voting with their wallets and the result seems fairly clear, the forum population is not the population base that keeps the magazine and the forums going. That's all I am saying, its something to think about.

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We don't read the magazine because of what it has become, no one is telling haymarket or DH to change it, just stating that we don't read it because it doesn't suit our interests now.

I'm not sure what you're implying here, but alot of us are voting, with our wallets. How else can we do it? Threaten to buy the magazine until it changes?

Pretty much the same question which dictates the same answer. The explanation that was given was the magazine was no longer selling with its tech based focus and a change needed to be made. As a result sales went up. People are voting with their wallets and the result seems fairly clear, the forum population is not the population base that keeps the magazine and the forums going. That's all I am saying, its something to think about.

 

Oh I'm well aware of that, but what has that got to do with the people being vocal in here? I don't see anyone throwing a tantrum about it, just merely pointing out reasons why they have stopped buying/subscribing.

 

I wouldn't like to see the forums die, but at the same time, I'm not willing to pay $9 for a magazine that gives me less than an hour of reading (mostly with things that aren't new to me at all) I could nearly buy a new novel for that price.

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...the forum population is not the population base that keeps the magazine and the forums going.

What I'd like to know, in that case, is where the hell are these readers? The forums are free for anyone to rant in, so why isn't the gaming forum full to bursting? And why are the gaming-centric readers not posting here to tell us how they want it?

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1) Do you or did you at one stage subscribe to Atomic and if so, why?

Issue 1. PC Authority subscriber and saw the ad.

 

2) If you don't subscribe anymore or never have,why not?

(same as Hulks) I stopped subscribing a few years back when I found the content was moving away from my interests.

 

3) What would it take to get you to subscribe again?

Not sure. It's been a while since I read a copy. Was planning on grabbing a copy of the iPad edition but I for some reason every time I click on it in the iPad app it just sits there.

 

4) Roughly how long have you been visiting the forums?

About a year after the first edition was out.

 

5) How many hours a week would you spend on here?

At the start, way too many.

 

6) How does that compare to 2 years ago?

Not much although much more since becoming a mod.

 

7) Do you see yourself still here in 2 years time?

Most likely

 

8) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being the highest) rate your Atomic experience.

I don't think I could. It's fluctuates.

 

9) If you could change one thing about the mag or forums, what would it be?

I can't comment on the mag as I haven't read an issue in a while.

 

10) And finally, who is/was your favorite writer for the Mag?

No comment

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I am sure that those who do not subscribe do not have their reasons and they are entitled to them, but I don't think it is fair to believe that the forum users are the ones who get to decide the fate of the magazine when their actual representation is rather weak.

I agree with your argument. But I think there's two additional key points you're missing...

 

1) Many former subscribers are saying in this thread that they would like to subscribe, but they won't do so while the magazine isn't up to standard (eg. four month old repeated Kitlogs, cut and paste content from overseas about products that aren't even available in Australia, etc). Ie. they'd like to be customers again. Rather than people who lost the right to vote, maybe they should be considered as opportunities to increase sales again.

 

Not many companies enjoy such loyalty that their former customers take the time to explain what is needed to return them to the fold. It's a positive for those who choose to listen.

 

2) Rule of thumb in CRM circles is that, for every customer who takes the time to express dissatisfaction, there are ten who don't say anything, but just quietly stop buying from you.

 

 

 

The explanation that was given was the magazine was no longer selling with its tech based focus and a change needed to be made. As a result sales went up.

What year did the focus change allegedly change from tech to gaming? I'd like to check what happened to the readership levels and forum traffic after that date.

 

Personally, I don't see the increased gaming content as such a bad thing. I do recall at the time though that David said it was 'pages of additional content' rather than 'replacing existing content'. Did the gaming content replace the tech content as people had feared, despite the reassurances that were given at the time?

Edited by Virtuoso

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Fine.

 

I'll play too.

 

1) Do you or did you at one stage subscribe to Atomic and if so, why?

 

No, never.

 

2) If you don't subscribe anymore or never have,why not?

 

I don't buy magazines that much these days. I went through a phase when I was a younger lad of buying everything I could. Hyper, NMS, PCA, the OS mags like the Sega official mags (Mean Machines?), even some esoteric titles such as the SNK/Neo-Geo mags. I guess I don't have a lot of time to read for pleasure in my life, anymore :(.

 

3) What would it take to get you to subscribe again?

 

Nothing. I simply wouldn't. It's not because I don't like the mag, it's just I'm so time poor I'd never get value from it.

 

 

4) Roughly how long have you been visiting the forums?

 

Since they began. 10 or 11 years now. I'm one of the very old crew ;).

 

5) How many hours a week would you spend on here?

 

If a browser is open, I'm on here I suppose - so perpetually, but maybe actually "on" the forum, 3 or 4 hours a week?

 

6) How does that compare to 2 years ago?

 

Probably the same.

 

7) Do you see yourself still here in 2 years time?

 

Yup. If it still exists, I'll still hang around. Want to know why/how I say that with confidence? I don't get so over-involved in forum politics/the stupidity of some of the arguments I see that take place here, and in general forum semantics that I build up hatred etc. I simply pop in when I feel like it...and if I see utter stupidity/idiocy in the green-room or otherwise, I simply ignore it and move on. I just don't bother arguing on the internet anymore. I'm...in a different world/time/space, now. So, I'll always stop by :)

 

8) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being the highest) rate your Atomic experience.

 

10. I've made some good friends here, and done some amazing things as a result of this place.

 

9) If you could change one thing about the mag or forums, what would it be?

 

Less gaming. More very serious/frightening technology. It's what I do. It's a part of my life.

 

10) And finally, who is/was your favorite writer for the Mag?

 

Ben always struck me as good fun - but, everyone has their colour and their own talent. I really think many of the AU contributors have something wonderful to offer.

 

z

Edited by zebra

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8) On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being the highest) rate your Atomic experience.

 

10. I've made some good friends here

Good answer.

*puts stick away*

 

 

 

 

 

 

:P

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What I'd like to know, in that case, is where the hell are these readers? The forums are free for anyone to rant in, so why isn't the gaming forum full to bursting? And why are the gaming-centric readers not posting here to tell us how they want it?

I don't know, I do not have a crystal ball to see what the readership does with their time. Does someone have to come to the forums in order to be recognised as being part of the Atomic brand userbase? The forums are not the be-all and end-all of the brand. I collected Atomic for 4 years before I came to the forums, I had no interest in forums before. That is just one example of that so is it not fair to say that these users don't have an interest or an opinion and enjoy what they are given? Do I have any hard data? of course not but we have what 100-200 regular users on this forum and a fair few have said they do not buy or subscribe so who is buying it and keeping the brand going?

 

I agree with your argument. But I think there's two additional key points you're missing...

 

1) Many former subscribers are saying in this thread that they would like to subscribe, but they won't do so while the magazine isn't up to standard (eg. four month old repeated Kitlogs, cut and paste content from overseas about products that aren't even available in Australia, etc). Ie. they'd like to be customers again. Rather than people who lost the right to vote, maybe they should be considered as opportunities to increase sales again.

 

Not many companies enjoy such loyalty that their former customers take the time to explain what is needed to return them to the fold. It's a positive for those who choose to listen.

 

2) Rule of thumb in CRM circles is that, for every customer who takes the time to express dissatisfaction, there are ten who don't say anything, but just quietly stop buying from you.

 

I don't know anything about business but it would seem to me that changing the format of a magazine to satisfy what would appear to be a handful people is not a good business idea even if to win back 10 times that number. Is there a need for improvement, nothing is perfect so improvement is good but there are limits to this - money, time and manpower. Some people may be loyal, but they are not actively supporting the brand so why do they need to be taken into account when they are in the clear minority? Sacrifice a hundred readers to get ten back? That is not an attack, that is a stark reality question.

 

What year did the focus change allegedly change from tech to gaming? I'd like to check what happened to the readership levels and forum traffic after that date.

 

Personally, I don't see the increased gaming content as such a bad thing. I do recall at the time though that David said it was 'pages of additional content' rather than 'replacing existing content'. Did the gaming content replace the tech content as people had feared, despite the reassurances that were given at the time?

Well unless there is a FOI agreement with the publisher and David I doubt you will get such an answer and we just have to trust that David is telling the truth when he says sales have gone up (of course if one is loyal then a level of trust implied). Also does the forum traffic have to do with anything? If someone leaves the forums it doesn't mean a reader is lost, or if they are not replaced someone else doesn't pick up a magazine in a newsagent.

 

I think it is worth stating again as there seems to be a bit of myopic beliefs about the place: the forums are not the measure of success of the Atomic brand, even if some of us would like to think it is. It is just one cog in the entire machine.

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What I'd like to know, in that case, is where the hell are these readers? The forums are free for anyone to rant in, so why isn't the gaming forum full to bursting? And why are the gaming-centric readers not posting here to tell us how they want it?

I don't know, I do not have a crystal ball to see what the readership does with their time. Does someone have to come to the forums in order to be recognised as being part of the Atomic brand userbase? The forums are not the be-all and end-all of the brand. I collected Atomic for 4 years before I came to the forums, I had no interest in forums before. That is just one example of that so is it not fair to say that these users don't have an interest or an opinion and enjoy what they are given? Do I have any hard data? of course not but we have what 100-200 regular users on this forum and a fair few have said they do not buy or subscribe so who is buying it and keeping the brand going?

Those were rhetorical questions, actually. ;) But I hear your answers, and tbh they are much the same as the ones I'd given myself.

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I don't know anything about business but it would seem to me that changing the format of a magazine to satisfy what would appear to be a handful people is not a good business idea even if to win back 10 times that number.

No, allowing the readership and forum traffic to continue to decline so dramatically over the last four years was the bad business idea. The question now is, how to restore it. The ideas for rebuliding Atomic should come from market research, aided by staff and management expert judgement. Input from people who visit the Brand's forums is one *valid* part of listening to the market.

 

 

Some people may be loyal, but they are not actively supporting the brand so why do they need to be taken into account when they are in the clear minority? Sacrifice a hundred readers to get ten back? That is not an attack, that is a stark reality question.

You assume that satisfying the peope who care about the Brand would require the sacrifice of a further 100. That's a silly false dichotomy and I don't think I need to respond further than that.

 

 

I doubt you will get such an answer and we just have to trust that David is telling the truth when he says sales have gone up.

Readership data and forum traffic data are both available... the former from the publisher, and the latter from AC Neilsen. The reason forum traffic is relevant is that the forum generates revenue for the brand... revenue which has decreased as click traffic has for the site has decreased, reducing the effective ad rates. That has a negative impact on the Atomic Brand's overall viability.

 

 

David's post above indicates the owners are prepared to once again invest in the Brand, which means they realise it has potential beyond its current performance. It is a very positive sign. The question now is what editorial direction he will take, and how he will put to good use the additional resource he is being given.

Edited by Virtuoso

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Well unless there is a FOI agreement with the publisher and David I doubt you will get such an answer and we just have to trust that David is telling the truth when he says sales have gone up (of course if one is loyal then a level of trust implied). Also does the forum traffic have to do with anything? If someone leaves the forums it doesn't mean a reader is lost, or if they are not replaced someone else doesn't pick up a magazine in a newsagent.

 

I think it is worth stating again as there seems to be a bit of myopic beliefs about the place: the forums are not the measure of success of the Atomic brand, even if some of us would like to think it is. It is just one cog in the entire machine.

It may be one cog in the entire machine, but it's still a cog.

 

To be honest, all feedback is important and it's up to Dave to determine what feedback is worth adopting. To silence it or demean those who offer it to do yourself a disservice.

 

FWIW, the difference between Atomicmpc when I started subscribing and the point when my sub ran out and I had a stack of issues I hadn't bothered reading. Atomicmpc stopped challenging me and ceased to be an authority on tech in the home. Things may have changed and I hope if I ever get Zinio to do more than spin endlessly when I click on the magazine to purchase I will be surprised but by the sound of it I don't think I will be.

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I don't know anything about business but it would seem to me that changing the format of a magazine to satisfy what would appear to be a handful people is not a good business idea even if to win back 10 times that number.

No, allowing the readership and forum traffic to continue to decline so dramatically over the last four years was the bad business idea. The question now is, how to restore it. The ideas for rebuliding Atomic should come from market research, aided by staff and management expert judgement. Input from people who visit the Brand's forums is one *valid* part of listening to the market.

Well unless there is a FOI agreement with the publisher and David I doubt you will get such an answer and we just have to trust that David is telling the truth when he says sales have gone up (of course if one is loyal then a level of trust implied). Also does the forum traffic have to do with anything? If someone leaves the forums it doesn't mean a reader is lost, or if they are not replaced someone else doesn't pick up a magazine in a newsagent.

 

I think it is worth stating again as there seems to be a bit of myopic beliefs about the place: the forums are not the measure of success of the Atomic brand, even if some of us would like to think it is. It is just one cog in the entire machine.

It may be one cog in the entire machine, but it's still a cog.

 

To be honest, all feedback is important and it's up to Dave to determine what feedback is worth adopting. To silence it or demean those who offer it to do yourself a disservice.

Exactly. The forums is one part of the brand, one part of the cog. One. Not the most important, not the least important. Just one part of it. If the people on the forums want one thing but it can't be done because of various reason it doesn't mean their opinions are not valid, it means it can't be done for reason X. You can't run a business properly by listening to just a handful of people from one section of the community.

 

I am not saying anyone should be ignored, I am saying people need to think about what they are asking and remember there is more going on here than just the forums.

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I'm not sure who you think is saying that the forums are everything and the people who frequent here are more important than the reader base. The question was posed in the OP and people have responded. That is pretty much it.

 

It's good to see someone defending the current magazine but I don't think defence of it is actually necessary. Those who don't like it will continue not to buy it. Those who do like it will and most likely recommend it to their friends. The world continues turning.

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