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Hlass

Brave heroes of denial help make schools havens for anti-science

Should children be taught "alternative" theories of climate change  

35 members have voted

  1. 1. ?

    • Yes
      11
    • No
      14
    • Maybe (please expand in thread)
      10


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I think it's probably quite likely that bad science (including in some cases anti-scientific alarmism about anthropogenic contributions to radiative forcing, and fanaticism about what we should be doing about it in certain contexts) is being presented to kids in schools.

 

I certainly don't think that John Howard and Ian Pilmer present any kind of solution or sensible response to that, though.

Why do you think it "likely"?

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I really cant be bothered reading through what everyone believes, but I'm a denialer

and I have bought that book, its is refreshing to see something different. Also I am 15 and I get all sort of climate change crap shoved down my throat.

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I really cant be bothered reading through what everyone believes, but I'm a denialer

and I have bought that book, its is refreshing to see something different. Also I am 15 and I get all sort of climate change crap shoved down my throat.

It's reality. You should be aware of it.

 

It's a real pity you have bought yourself a book which will make you dumber. Just remember there is a reason Prof. Pilmer writes books instead of papers. He prefers a gullible lay audience without the right of reply.

Edited by Hlass

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I really cant be bothered reading through what everyone believes, but I'm a denialer

and I have bought that book, its is refreshing to see something different. Also I am 15 and I get all sort of climate change crap shoved down my throat.

I'm glad you consider all evidence and views when formulating your no doubt solid view on the risks of climate change.

 

Out of interests, what do you think the odds are that we are causing damage to the climate?

Where do you think the increasing carbon dioxide concentrations come from in the atmosphere?

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I really cant be bothered reading through what everyone believes, but I'm a denialer

and I have bought that book, its is refreshing to see something different. Also I am 15 and I get all sort of climate change crap shoved down my throat.

You're 15? So still in school, yeah?

 

What are they actually teaching these days in science? Are they sticking to the basics or is there a big focus on political topics like this, that really aren't worthy of the science classroom?

 

EDIT

my 2c re: the climate debate -

(1) Mitigation, rather than prevention. We can use warming to our advantage, if we're ready for it.

(2) Reforestation, rather than some technically sophisticated carbon capture. Trees have so many uses apart from being outstanding carbon sinks - shame there's no quick money to be made from them...

Edited by thesorehead

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We can use warming to our advantage, if we're ready for it.

Think of the opportunities - new beach-front properties, natural cyclonic roof-cleaning, more desert plains for land speed record runs, a booming market for hats...such potential!

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We can use warming to our advantage, if we're ready for it.

Think of the opportunities - new beach-front properties, natural cyclonic roof-cleaning, more desert plains for land speed record runs, a booming market for hats...such potential!

 

I was thinking more along the lines of more tundra becoming arable; adaptations to farming and water retention practices to maintain primary produce output and opportunities in construction and renovation (specifics depending on what actually occurs with the weather), but whatever floats your boat I suppose... Edited by thesorehead

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It would take a shit load of fertilizer before tundra could be described as "arable" no matter how hot it gets. Little organic matter in the soil makes it very inhospitable. Not to mention that increased temperature does not equal more sunlight, making higher latitudes unlikely to ever be good farm land.

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We can use warming to our advantage, if we're ready for it.

Think of the opportunities - new beach-front properties, natural cyclonic roof-cleaning, more desert plains for land speed record runs, a booming market for hats...such potential!

 

I was thinking more along the lines of more tundra becoming arable; adaptations to farming and water retention practices to maintain primary produce output and opportunities in construction and renovation (specifics depending on what actually occurs with the weather), but whatever floats your boat I suppose...

 

That's true that certain portions of Russia or Canada will become a bit more hospitable, but quite apart from the predictions the tundra is going to release huge amounts of stored greenhouse gases as it thaws, in general climate change is seen as a serious challenge to agriculture.

 

I'm involved in the commercial horticulture industry, and looking at the issue from that perspective there are a couple of key factors to the challenge. First, as things get generally hotter, production of various crops needs to move south to stay in the ideal climatic zone. That's not always possible, and considering how infrastructure intensive modern agriculture is, picking up sticks and moving is a seriously expensive exercise. Second, there are some things that simply won't be able to be avoided, like the increased number of extreme weather events, and the concentration of rainfall into shorter periods. Agriculture needs steady, reliable weather, and climate change is expected to make the weather more chaotic, extreme and unpredictable. At the same time, somehow the world is supposed to double food production by the middle of this century to feed to growing population.

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I really cant be bothered reading through what everyone believes, but I'm a denialer

and I have bought that book, its is refreshing to see something different. Also I am 15 and I get all sort of climate change crap shoved down my throat.

I'm glad you consider all evidence and views when formulating your no doubt solid view on the risks of climate change.

 

Out of interests, what do you think the odds are that we are causing damage to the climate?

Where do you think the increasing carbon dioxide concentrations come from in the atmosphere?

 

1) i think the odds are nelligible, we make a tiny bit and both the trees and the oceans take it back.

2)from the oceans.

 

also I'm still trying to find out were it all comes form it is really hard to go through papers and books to find out the truth

 

I really cant be bothered reading through what everyone believes, but I'm a denialer

and I have bought that book, its is refreshing to see something different. Also I am 15 and I get all sort of climate change crap shoved down my throat.

You're 15? So still in school, yeah?

 

What are they actually teaching these days in science? Are they sticking to the basics or is there a big focus on political topics like this, that really aren't worthy of the science classroom?

 

EDIT

my 2c re: the climate debate -

(1) Mitigation, rather than prevention. We can use warming to our advantage, if we're ready for it.

(2) Reforestation, rather than some technically sophisticated carbon capture. Trees have so many uses apart from being outstanding carbon sinks - shame there's no quick money to be made from them...

 

 

we learn a lot of stuff, and yess, we learn a bit about climate change and we arent allowed other views 'the debate is over' ehh, so annoying.

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(2) Reforestation, rather than some technically sophisticated carbon capture. Trees have so many uses apart from being outstanding carbon sinks - shame there's no quick money to be made from them...

Now that's the kind of climate proposal I can get behind. Ostensibly solves some of the problem, has minimal impact on day to day lives, has other benefits as well, which remain and are still useful, even if global warming turns out to be a crock of shit.

 

we learn a lot of stuff, and yes, we learn a bit about climate change and we arent allowed other views 'the debate is over' ehh, so annoying.

I feel what you are saying bro.

 

Gotta remember, some of the people espousing their complete superiority and understanding over those who are still in school haven't been in any kind of formal education, let alone as restrictive an environment as a highschool, for decades. Me, I'ts been 3 years since I was in highschool, but I still remember what a mentally restricting place that shit was, even when it was trying not to be.

 

Nothing quite like coming from an environment where your teachers say "you are too dumb to have an alternate viewpoint, swallow what I say and take it as gospel truth", to a forum where angry old men with cemented inflexible minds say "you are too inexperienced to have an alternate viewpoint, swallow what I say and take it as gospel truth", without even trying to understand what you are saying.

 

For my part, I went to three highschools, and two of them were exactly the same as you. At the third, which was the private school, critical thinking was encouraged, and the climate debate was presented for what it was, a debate.

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At the third, which was the private school, critical thinking was encouraged, and the climate debate was presented for what it was, a debate.

If you're not going to read the thread what's the point in talking to you? Are you purposely trying to screw up your reputation?

 

"The Climate Change Debate" as you call it, is not a debate. Some parts of climate change theory are open to debate, some parts are not, just like any subject.

 

But the "debate" going on around the world is not a debate, it is climate change denial, by special interests who are trying to protect their income, like mining companies.

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Are you purposely trying to screw up your reputation?

I give no fucks about what most people around me think any more. You included.

 

On the other hand, I present to you this:

 

de·bate/diˈbāt/

Noun:

A formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.

Verb:

Argue about (a subject), esp. in a formal manner.

 

A debate is exactly what it is. Your willingness to declare the dictionary a climate denialist tells me everything I need to know about your position.

 

Accusing mining companies of trying to cover up global warming is as stupid as accusing the US government of orchestrating 9/11. Companies influence legislation, they don't cover up scientific discoveries too large to be missed.

 

Instead, I present to you occams razor:

 

possibility #1: Mining companies know global warming is a thing, and think they can persuade the world population otherwise, even after 10 years of failure

 

possibility #2: Scientists that think climate change is wrong cannot get funding at universities, since climate denial is a political thing within the unis, so they go to industries such as mining and whatever other scapegoats for your paranoid delusions you like because they know these companies will fund alternative research, as the research may be of value to them when it comes time to legislate.

 

Mining companies appear to be at the forefront of climate denial, only because THEY ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO WILL FUND THAT KIND OF RESEARCH.

 

What, you expected me to believe the word of institutions who make it a policy to investigate only one side of an issue?

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That would be a fine theory if it reflected reality in any fashion. Mining companies aren't in the least interested in employing scientists to do climate science. What they want, which we can see clearly with Professor Pilmer, is the presence of scientists to lend legitimacy to PR.

 

 

They are in the business of spoiling and discrediting climate science not doing it.

 

Anyway it isn't just Mining companies against Universities. NASA says the climate is changing, the Australian BOM says the climate is changing, every credible source concurs.

Edited by Hlass

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(2) Reforestation, rather than some technically sophisticated carbon capture. Trees have so many uses apart from being outstanding carbon sinks - shame there's no quick money to be made from them...

Now that's the kind of climate proposal I can get behind. Ostensibly solves some of the problem, has minimal impact on day to day lives, has other benefits as well, which remain and are still useful, even if global warming turns out to be a crock of shit.

 

we learn a lot of stuff, and yes, we learn a bit about climate change and we arent allowed other views 'the debate is over' ehh, so annoying.

I feel what you are saying bro.

 

 

For my part, I went to three highschools, and two of them were exactly the same as you. At the third, which was the private school, critical thinking was encouraged, and the climate debate was presented for what it was, a debate.

 

1) it is food for vedgitation, lets not forget that

2) I go to a private school already.

Are you purposely trying to screw up your reputation?

I give no fucks about what most people around me think any more. You included.

 

On the other hand, I present to you this:

 

de·bate/diˈbāt/

Noun:

A formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.

Verb:

Argue about (a subject), esp. in a formal manner.

 

A debate is exactly what it is. Your willingness to declare the dictionary a climate denialist tells me everything I need to know about your position.

 

Accusing mining companies of trying to cover up global warming is as stupid as accusing the US government of orchestrating 9/11. Companies influence legislation, they don't cover up scientific discoveries too large to be missed.

 

Instead, I present to you occams razor:

 

possibility #1: Mining companies know global warming is a thing, and think they can persuade the world population otherwise, even after 10 years of failure

 

possibility #2: Scientists that think climate change is wrong cannot get funding at universities, since climate denial is a political thing within the unis, so they go to industries such as mining and whatever other scapegoats for your paranoid delusions you like because they know these companies will fund alternative research, as the research may be of value to them when it comes time to legislate.

 

Mining companies appear to be at the forefront of climate denial, only because THEY ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO WILL FUND THAT KIND OF RESEARCH.

 

What, you expected me to believe the word of institutions who make it a policy to investigate only one side of an issue?

 

ONYA BRO!

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Are you purposely trying to screw up your reputation?

I give no fucks about what most people around me think any more. You included.

 

On the other hand, I present to you this:

 

de·bate/diˈbāt/

Noun:

A formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.

Verb:

Argue about (a subject), esp. in a formal manner.

 

A debate is exactly what it is. Your willingness to declare the dictionary a climate denialist tells me everything I need to know about your position.

 

Accusing mining companies of trying to cover up global warming is as stupid as accusing the US government of orchestrating 9/11. Companies influence legislation, they don't cover up scientific discoveries too large to be missed.

 

Instead, I present to you occams razor:

 

possibility #1: Mining companies know global warming is a thing, and think they can persuade the world population otherwise, even after 10 years of failure

 

possibility #2: Scientists that think climate change is wrong cannot get funding at universities, since climate denial is a political thing within the unis, so they go to industries such as mining and whatever other scapegoats for your paranoid delusions you like because they know these companies will fund alternative research, as the research may be of value to them when it comes time to legislate.

 

Mining companies appear to be at the forefront of climate denial, only because THEY ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO WILL FUND THAT KIND OF RESEARCH.

 

What, you expected me to believe the word of institutions who make it a policy to investigate only one side of an issue?

 

Simply: you're an idiot.

 

I'll answer your comments more fully tomorrow, but unfortunately, you give 21 year olds a bad name.

 

In short, yes, I expect you to give more than two fucks what people like me, who have been investigating issues like this for longer than you have been alive, think. It's simple respect for the truth, and for the labour some people (none of them you) have put into getting to the bottom of these issues.

 

You'll learn your place eventually, because at the moment your life is going nowhere. It'll turn around once you fix your attitude.

 

That's it for playing the man from me - think of it as sage advice from an oldie to an infant - tomorrow I'll play you the ball.

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Are you purposely trying to screw up your reputation?

I give no fucks about what most people around me think any more. You included.

 

On the other hand, I present to you this:

 

de·bate/diˈbāt/

Noun:

A formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.

Verb:

Argue about (a subject), esp. in a formal manner.

 

A debate is exactly what it is. Your willingness to declare the dictionary a climate denialist tells me everything I need to know about your position.

 

Accusing mining companies of trying to cover up global warming is as stupid as accusing the US government of orchestrating 9/11. Companies influence legislation, they don't cover up scientific discoveries too large to be missed.

 

Instead, I present to you occams razor:

 

possibility #1: Mining companies know global warming is a thing, and think they can persuade the world population otherwise, even after 10 years of failure

 

possibility #2: Scientists that think climate change is wrong cannot get funding at universities, since climate denial is a political thing within the unis, so they go to industries such as mining and whatever other scapegoats for your paranoid delusions you like because they know these companies will fund alternative research, as the research may be of value to them when it comes time to legislate.

 

Mining companies appear to be at the forefront of climate denial, only because THEY ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO WILL FUND THAT KIND OF RESEARCH.

 

What, you expected me to believe the word of institutions who make it a policy to investigate only one side of an issue?

 

Simply: you're an idiot.

 

I'll answer your comments more fully tomorrow, but unfortunately, you give 21 year olds a bad name.

 

In short, yes, I expect you to give more than two fucks what people like me, who have been investigating issues like this for longer than you have been alive, think. It's simple respect for the truth, and for the labour some people (none of them you) have put into getting to the bottom of these issues.

 

You'll learn your place eventually, because at the moment your life is going nowhere. It'll turn around once you fix your attitude.

 

That's it for playing the man from me - think of it as sage advice from an oldie to an infant - tomorrow I'll play you the ball.

 

 

I was once given a piece of advice, be careful who you give your respect to.

why?? I asked

because people want respect because they are old, they DID NOT earn it, think of it this way: who do you trust; a 60yr old man who is spiteful or a 12 year old who thinks and acts mature.

 

You have non of my respect you are not thinking why people like me and him are denial-ing it.

 

Are you purposely trying to screw up your reputation?

I give no fucks about what most people around me think any more. You included.

 

On the other hand, I present to you this:

 

de·bate/diˈbāt/

Noun:

A formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.

Verb:

Argue about (a subject), esp. in a formal manner.

 

A debate is exactly what it is. Your willingness to declare the dictionary a climate denialist tells me everything I need to know about your position.

 

Accusing mining companies of trying to cover up global warming is as stupid as accusing the US government of orchestrating 9/11. Companies influence legislation, they don't cover up scientific discoveries too large to be missed.

 

Instead, I present to you occams razor:

 

possibility #1: Mining companies know global warming is a thing, and think they can persuade the world population otherwise, even after 10 years of failure

 

possibility #2: Scientists that think climate change is wrong cannot get funding at universities, since climate denial is a political thing within the unis, so they go to industries such as mining and whatever other scapegoats for your paranoid delusions you like because they know these companies will fund alternative research, as the research may be of value to them when it comes time to legislate.

 

Mining companies appear to be at the forefront of climate denial, only because THEY ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO WILL FUND THAT KIND OF RESEARCH.

 

What, you expected me to believe the word of institutions who make it a policy to investigate only one side of an issue?

 

Simply: you're an idiot.

 

I'll answer your comments more fully tomorrow, but unfortunately, you give 21 year olds a bad name.

 

In short, yes, I expect you to give more than two fucks what people like me, who have been investigating issues like this for longer than you have been alive, think. It's simple respect for the truth, and for the labour some people (none of them you) have put into getting to the bottom of these issues.

 

You'll learn your place eventually, because at the moment your life is going nowhere. It'll turn around once you fix your attitude.

 

That's it for playing the man from me - think of it as sage advice from an oldie to an infant - tomorrow I'll play you the ball.

 

 

I was once given a piece of advice, be careful who you give your respect to.

why?? I asked

because people want respect because they are old, they DID NOT earn it, think of it this way: who do you trust; a 60yr old man who is spiteful or a 12 year old who thinks and acts mature.

Edited by saluy

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I was once given a piece of advice, be careful who you give your respect to.

why?? I asked

because people want respect because they are old, they DID NOT earn it, think of it this way: who do you trust; a 60yr old man who is spiteful or a 12 year old who thinks and acts mature.

Kid, that's good advice. Read my post again and you'll see that I'm not suggesting anyone respect age - I'm suggesting that respect is due where effort is concerned.

 

Especially if someone has bothered to put effort into something that you haven't, because you can't be arsed.

 

Be careful who you disrespect - you could be serving them fries with their order one day.

 

I learned a long time ago, if I am not prepared to put in the effort to do the work or to understand something, I don't deserve to have an opinion, and I don't deserve to have a say.

 

Joining a group of experts (and I'm not suggesting I am one) and mouthing off is the quickets way to end up out of a job.

 

Every 18 year old and every recent graduate we get at my work is a big mouth upstart, it seems to come with the territory of that age. Some of them are excellent people and excellent employees, and some of them are crap. But they all seem to have no idea when to speak and when to pull their head in.

 

They learn soon enough. If you're a n00b and you carry yourself around an office or a workshop like you're king shit, the old hands won't give you any slack. You make a mistake, and you'll never hear the end of it. I guess that's just the way the world works.

 

In short, yes, I expect you to give more than two fucks what people like me

Nope, fuck not given.

 

You are welcome to fuck yourself though :D

 

Yeah, I'm not wasting any more time on you. You have to live with you, which I guess is punishment enough - I get to live with my beautiful wife and my awesome job in my nice apartment in town. ;-)

 

If we ever meet, I'll be sure to tell your manager what a wonderful job you're doing cleanig my toilet.

 

I'll answer your comments more fully tomorrow

You have the patience of a saint, dude : p.

 

Apparently, even that is not enough!

 

Oh well, some people just cannot be saved, I guess (-:

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Yeah, I'm not wasting any more time on you. You have to live with you, which I guess is punishment enough - I get to live with my beautiful wife and my awesome job in my nice apartment in town. ;-)

Right. So have you ever done anything of your own volition, or did you spend your entire life trying to ensure that you did exactly what was expected of you?

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Oh I'm late to the climate change thread of this week :(

 

Aww I missed all the name calling and religious comparisons.

 

 

Anyway I voted No, although It's an odd question to answer. You want all available information to be presented but the heart of the issue is that many people like John Howard believe that both sides should get equal representation on the matter. The truth is, the scientific community isn't divided equally on this issue so why should those on the tiny minority get just as much say (Before you scream commie or some shit like that you need to remember that science isn't a democracy, its a peer review system)? All this does is spread confusion and create doubt, people will find it much easier to just turn away from the subject and then deny it outright if they are subject too much competitive information.

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Yeah, I'm not wasting any more time on you. You have to live with you, which I guess is punishment enough - I get to live with my beautiful wife and my awesome job in my nice apartment in town. ;-)

Right. So have you ever done anything of your own volition, or did you spend your entire life trying to ensure that you did exactly what was expected of you?

 

It took me a long time to figure out what I wanted in life, and now I have it. Once upon a time I did nothing but rebel, so don't think you have anything over me.

 

Dude, if there's one piece of advice I can't stress enough, it's that you should pull your head in. You can't win, not only because this is the Internet, but because I love my life. It's taken me a fuckload of time to decide what is best in life, and then to get it. Pipsqueaks like you aren't going to make me second-guess that, no matter how hard you try with the insults.

 

Instead of acting tough, you'll feel a lot better if you just grow up.

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Whew it's getting hot in here ... also you guys are clearly getting worked up with one another. Take a chill pill guys, how bout instead of writing back with insults, etc you write something out. Leave it, come back in 40 minutes, re-read it and see if you still wanna post it.

 

If you're doing that and STILL insulting one another, then maybe some force time in the Zen Garden will cool you off.

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