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Christmas without Jesus

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Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ.

 

It’s specifically a Catholic/Christian religious event.

 

If you put up a tree and give out presents you are essentially taking part in that celebration.

If you don’t believe that you are, you’re a tool.

 

I’m a Catholic ,you won’t catch me taking part in the physical traditions of another religion because I’m not part of that religion.

 

So if you don’t believe in Christmas, don’t undertake Christmas-ey shit.

 

Simple

i often get puzzled by the images and marketing of christmas. and how they relate to the baby Jesus.

 

Essentially the present giving is a representation of the gifts that the three wise men brought to the baby Jesus.

 

This parallels what St Nicholas did in more recent times, by essentially creeping around and dropping money off for poor families in the night, essentially for his own amusment/gratification.....like a ninja..a holy-Christmas ninja. That brought gifts

 

His legacy and also his image (stylised a bit) is what is used for Santa Claus now.

 

 

 

 

Posted Image

Fine, we hijacked the tree in 400AD

 

everything else......ours!

 

The point is , celebrate the shit outta Zeus day or Saturnalia but personally I think its awkward pretending once a year to be a part of a religion that you know nothing about.

 

You wont catch me dieting during Ramadan just cause my Muslim mates are doing it.

 

Actually, a quick search around the net seems to indicate that the catholic church banned gift giving at one stage, supposedly due to it having pagan roots, and reinstated it with a new meaning re: st nick.

 

Couldn't find it myself, however I know that they were exchanging gifts at Christmas based on the three wise men bringing gifts to Jesus and what they bought to Jesus (Gold Frankincense and Mhyrr) were the cornerstones of pagan ritual/ceremonies. So maybe that's where that arose?

 

St Nick didn't happen until relatively recent times in Europe and his name literally translates to Sinta Closs or something like that. He also is depicted with a white beard and red robes etc.

 

So that's where that came from.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not a Christian (actually a Agnostic supposedly a Buddhist) but I am not going call Christmas "Happy Holidays" or some PC version of it.

Good for you dude. :-)

 

I know that when my mates wish me Eid Mubarak, I feel honored that they would include me in something that means so much to them. I wouldn't want them to water down or change or stop wishing me well at that time and I'd be mortified if they expected that I would think that way!

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Essentially the present giving is a representation of the gifts that the three wise men brought to the baby Jesus.

 

This parallels what St Nicholas did in more recent times, by essentially creeping around and dropping money off for poor families in the night, essentially for his own amusment/gratification.....like a ninja..a holy-Christmas ninja. That brought gifts

 

His legacy and also his image (stylised a bit) is what is used for Santa Claus now.

i always heard it was "Saint Clause"

What about coca cola and their hand in the colour scheme their coke colours after all.

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Santa was originally green, good old coke changed that.

 

IMHO all of the Christmas is just commercialization anyway.

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Its just that religious folk get pissy when they realise that people pay more attention to the marketing and propaganda from retailers than they do to the marketing and propaganda from their chosen brand of crazy.

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The point is , celebrate the shit outta Zeus day or Saturnalia but personally I think its awkward pretending once a year to be a part of a religion that you know nothing about.

Personally, I enjoy subverting Christmas and watering it down so it's just a quaint cultural tradition : ). As people have said, Christmas is just a hand-me-down celebration from previous cultures and religions anyway - it was never exclusively Christian. I figure it's just being handed on to the next culture in the line, which this time around will be secular, and the star on top of the tree will just be another layer of cultural history, adding to the remnants of previous cultures like the mistletoe and gift giving.

 

One thousand years hence, when our culture cedes to the next, they will inherit the celebration, perhaps with our own little touches like the sacred, gaily-coloured JB Hifi voucher and the traditional prawn cocktails.

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The point is , celebrate the shit outta Zeus day or Saturnalia but personally I think its awkward pretending once a year to be a part of a religion that you know nothing about.

Personally, I enjoy subverting Christmas and watering it down so it's just a quaint cultural tradition : ). As people have said, Christmas is just a hand-me-down celebration from previous cultures and religions anyway - it was never exclusively Christian. I figure it's just being handed on to the next culture in the line, which this time around will be secular, and the star on top of the tree will just be another layer of cultural history, adding to the remnants of previous cultures like the mistletoe and gift giving.

 

One thousand years hence, when our culture cedes to the next, they will inherit the celebration, perhaps with our own little touches like the sacred, gaily-coloured JB Hifi voucher and the traditional prawn cocktails.

 

 

Which will tie in nicely to when, thousands of years from now, religious scholars find that many appeared to actually worship JeBus.

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The point is , celebrate the shit outta Zeus day or Saturnalia but personally I think its awkward pretending once a year to be a part of a religion that you know nothing about.

Personally, I enjoy subverting Christmas and watering it down so it's just a quaint cultural tradition : ). As people have said, Christmas is just a hand-me-down celebration from previous cultures and religions anyway - it was never exclusively Christian. I figure it's just being handed on to the next culture in the line, which this time around will be secular, and the star on top of the tree will just be another layer of cultural history, adding to the remnants of previous cultures like the mistletoe and gift giving.

 

One thousand years hence, when our culture cedes to the next, they will inherit the celebration, perhaps with our own little touches like the sacred, gaily-coloured JB Hifi voucher and the traditional prawn cocktails.

 

Heh,

 

Oh, yes, mistletoe is definitely pagan, as are holly and ivy, and many of the foods eaten at Christmas. Good old Christianity, the great chameleon.

 

I volunteer at a school that teaches English to Muslim refugees. I must admit I was decidedly uncomfortable about our break-up dinner taking on Christmas overtones. Probably more uncomfortable than the students, who didn't seem to care that much.

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I know that when my mates wish me Eid Mubarak, I feel honored that they would include me in something that means so much to them. I wouldn't want them to water down or change or stop wishing me well at that time and I'd be mortified if they expected that I would think that way!

+1

 

It's obvious that the intent is to wish you well and the comment should be taken in the way it was intended. And at this time of year I'm happy for others to have their hypocrisy :)

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The point is , celebrate the shit outta Zeus day or Saturnalia but personally I think its awkward pretending once a year to be a part of a religion that you know nothing about.

Personally, I enjoy subverting Christmas and watering it down so it's just a quaint cultural tradition : ). As people have said, Christmas is just a hand-me-down celebration from previous cultures and religions anyway - it was never exclusively Christian. I figure it's just being handed on to the next culture in the line, which this time around will be secular, and the star on top of the tree will just be another layer of cultural history, adding to the remnants of previous cultures like the mistletoe and gift giving.

 

One thousand years hence, when our culture cedes to the next, they will inherit the celebration, perhaps with our own little touches like the sacred, gaily-coloured JB Hifi voucher and the traditional prawn cocktails.

 

 

Which will tie in nicely to when, thousands of years from now, religious scholars find that many appeared to actually worship JeBus.

 

No more than we assume Christians have been worshipping Saturn for the last two millennia. If anything, they'll probably assume we were making some kind of offering to the mighty gods of capitalism. Harvey Norman, King of Kings, Marker up of Prices...

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In Novemeber, someone said "Happy Diwali" to me, so put an Australian flag around my neck (cape style) and I punched them in their stupid Un-Australian face.

 

 

'

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In Novemeber, someone said "Happy Diwali" to me, so put an Australian flag around my neck (cape style) and I punched them in their stupid Un-Australian face.

 

 

'

A Cronulla native are we?

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One dad, who wanted to remain anonymous told the Daily Telegraph he would pull his daughter out of the inner-Sydney Montessori School in Balmain.

It's a freakin' Montessori. THE experimental all-inclusive non-religious hippie private school. What the fuck did you think you were signing up for?

 

The school has removed the word Christmas from songs, with students singing "we wish you a happy holidays" instead of "we wish you a merry Christmas".

Now it's time for the teacher to be stupid. Christmas is a word that contains Christ, so you cut it out. OK. Guess what the component words of holiday are?

 

"They should not force this on young kids. Christmas is meant to be all about Santa and presents," he told the Daily Telegraph.

Force what? Did they break their thumbs if the kids got it wrong? Did they come to your house and your families houses and rip out any mention of Christmas? Should they force celebrating Christmas on the kids that don't celebrate Christmas, or force them to leave or simply put up with it in the same room while the others are celebrating it?

 

Fuck you, you enrolled your kid in Montessori and probably pay upward of $4k+ of a year for it. Enrol in a hippie school, expect weird hippie shit.

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I don't think the kids in that school care much about Christmas in the way that adults do.

 

I think they care more about getting presents :p.

Exactly.

 

And, truly, my current batch of 3/4s are mostly Buddhists. There are maybe, off the top of my head, three very Christian kids. The rest are Buddhist or, I don't know, nothing. I have a non-religious Jew that today I had to speak to about goosestepping around the playground. That, maybe as a Russian Jew--and one with a disability at that--that maybe he's the last person in the world who should be goosestepping around with one arm extended, saluting an imaginary Hitler. This is a cohort of 48 students. They're not Christian. I--one of the teachers--am not Christian. Two of my colleagues aren't. One is the kind of Christian that takes mum and dad along to church to chew on Godwafers every Good Friday. Statistically and all, it'd be fairer to focus on Vesak. Dharma day. The Buddha's birthday. That Buddhist take on mother's and father's day. These things all matter more. This is a school--and there are many like it--where I can have a copy of Dawkins' Magic of Reality avaliable for students to read in class or take home and I can take comfort in the knowledge no one is going to kick up a fuss. For my school, Theravadan Buddhism and Thien Buddhism (Vietnamese Zen) are the majority religions. We celebrated Easter and I fielded questions about what all these chocolate eggs and paper baskets and rabbits have to do with some famous guy called Jesus who maybe lived a long time ago. I summarised the Jesus myth for a few of kids and got a few '...' stares.

 

State schools and religion, to my mind, don't mix. Get rid of RE. Get rid of religious celebrations (Christmas, is of course, much bigger than what Christianity makes it out to be). And I'm not just talking abouyt fucking off Christianity here. Religion as a whole, as a collective noun, should stop right at the school gates. Shouldn't be welcome over the threshold between the hours of 9:00 and 3:30. Sure, Christmas should be acknowledged as it is by most Australians--a sort of heavily commercialised festive season. That's where it should end. It's where it ends for most of us. But too--and to a point this depeneds on your school's area/demographic--it should also acknowledge (maybe not with a celebration, but a discussion at least) things like Ramadam and Vesak and Diwali. Why? Because these celebrations, while not as commercialised or popular or obvious as Christmas presents or chocolate eggs, are very much part of the Australian community. For my kids, Chinese new year is more a more significant event than Christmas and Easter combined. You've no right to take that away from that under the justification that oh, we're a God-bothering, Jesus-worshipping country (because, really, we're not). Schools should reflect their communities ... while not enforcing some God-bothering, whitebread culture as a norm or something inherently more valid than whatever it is brown and olive people do with their Sunday mornings. Promoting 'Australian' values and norms or teaching social skills, which is the job of schools, is not the same as ramming a particular description of God down children's throats.

Edited by Saponification

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Promoting 'Australian' values and norms or teaching social skills, which is the job of schools, is not the same as ramming a particular description of God down children's throats.

+1 to this ^^

 

Actually, your whole post was spot on Saponification, it's just that the above is it in a nut shell.

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State schools and religion, to my mind, don't mix.

Just for the record, the school in the OP is not a state school, it's a private school. And as I posted previously, there is no evidence that God was rammed down the throats of children at the school in question, quite the contrary.

Edited by Mac Dude

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This reminds me of the plans for a muslim school to be built in western sydney somewhere and the local townsfolk stopped it by saing the school will cause traffic delays, however when a catholic private school was planned, it went through. Im a religious type, but even i think that is stupid.

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Religion being taught to any non-adult is a fucking abhorrent thing IMO. Let THEM decide when they are ABLE to decide for themselves.

 

Fuck RE off out of any non-religion based school, fuck Chaplains off out of any non-religion based school.

 

 

I remember in Primary, we had a chaplain. Around the end of the school year we would cop shit about how we should hear about the word of (Judeo-Christian of course) god. Other weird shit about going to hell and stuff too.

 

When people like Mormons and JW's turn up they always get angry for some reason. I want to hear their viewpoint, hell I am open to religion - but they just don't like debating the values of other religions, they just want sheeple converts.

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Religion being taught to any non-adult is a fucking abhorrent thing IMO. Let THEM decide when they are ABLE to decide for themselves.

 

When people like Mormons and JW's turn up they always get angry for some reason. I want to hear their viewpoint, hell I am open to religion - but they just don't like debating the values of other religions, they just want sheeple converts.

+ 1

summed up my views perfectly. at the school i went to (granted it was a prespyterian based school)

we had religious classes from once a week from year 7 - 10 then in 11 it branched out to looking at other idealogies and it was actually really interesting and peaked my interesting.

but from 7 - 10 in RE classes and chapel sessions, i absolutley did not want to be there being forced to listen to this idealogical crap.

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Christmas is a holiday for me.

Period.

That's all I care about. Having a bit of a rest from work and chilling out with my family.

I don't care what ever else it means to everyone else.

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I don't think the kids in that school care much about Christmas in the way that adults do.

 

I think they care more about getting presents :p.

Exactly.

 

And, truly, my current batch of 3/4s are mostly Buddhists. There are maybe, off the top of my head, three very Christian kids. The rest are Buddhist or, I don't know, nothing. I have a non-religious Jew that today I had to speak to about goosestepping around the playground. That, maybe as a Russian Jew--and one with a disability at that--that maybe he's the last person in the world who should be goosestepping around with one arm extended, saluting an imaginary Hitler. This is a cohort of 48 students. They're not Christian. I--one of the teachers--am not Christian. Two of my colleagues aren't. One is the kind of Christian that takes mum and dad along to church to chew on Godwafers every Good Friday. Statistically and all, it'd be fairer to focus on Vesak. Dharma day. The Buddha's birthday. That Buddhist take on mother's and father's day. These things all matter more. This is a school--and there are many like it--where I can have a copy of Dawkins' Magic of Reality avaliable for students to read in class or take home and I can take comfort in the knowledge no one is going to kick up a fuss. For my school, Theravadan Buddhism and Thien Buddhism (Vietnamese Zen) are the majority religions. We celebrated Easter and I fielded questions about what all these chocolate eggs and paper baskets and rabbits have to do with some famous guy called Jesus who maybe lived a long time ago. I summarised the Jesus myth for a few of kids and got a few '...' stares.

 

State schools and religion, to my mind, don't mix. Get rid of RE. Get rid of religious celebrations (Christmas, is of course, much bigger than what Christianity makes it out to be). And I'm not just talking abouyt fucking off Christianity here. Religion as a whole, as a collective noun, should stop right at the school gates. Shouldn't be welcome over the threshold between the hours of 9:00 and 3:30. Sure, Christmas should be acknowledged as it is by most Australians--a sort of heavily commercialised festive season. That's where it should end. It's where it ends for most of us. But too--and to a point this depeneds on your school's area/demographic--it should also acknowledge (maybe not with a celebration, but a discussion at least) things like Ramadam and Vesak and Diwali. Why? Because these celebrations, while not as commercialised or popular or obvious as Christmas presents or chocolate eggs, are very much part of the Australian community. For my kids, Chinese new year is more a more significant event than Christmas and Easter combined. You've no right to take that away from that under the justification that oh, we're a God-bothering, Jesus-worshipping country (because, really, we're not). Schools should reflect their communities ... while not enforcing some God-bothering, whitebread culture as a norm or something inherently more valid than whatever it is brown and olive people do with their Sunday mornings. Promoting 'Australian' values and norms or teaching social skills, which is the job of schools, is not the same as ramming a particular description of God down children's throats.

 

 

Sure any religion is as valid, spiritually as another- agreed.

 

One religion however, Catholicism/Christianity it could be argued established Democracy and the modern first world. Which is probably why Christian values permeate even state schools here.

 

I'm not saying I agree, I could give a shit if people celebrate or follow the religion that I find myself most spiritually aligned with. Just don't take the day off, put up a tree, sing carols and then try to tell people what their religious celebrations are really about.

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Catholicism/Christianity it could be argued established Democracy and the modern first world.

I would love to hear that argument.

 

It's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, but hell, it'll be entertaining.

Edited by SexKitten

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One religion however, Catholicism/Christianity it could be argued established Democracy and the modern first world.

You could argue it, but you'd be wrong, at least about democracy. The Greeks established democracy. You could say one of the seeds of democracy in British culture was the Magna Carta, and they were a Christian nation at the time, true, but not Catholic - they were largely Protestant at the time, I believe.

 

Regarding the 'modern first world', you obviously seem to think only Western countries are in the first world. It seems a bit silly to say Christianity established Japan, South Korea, Taiwan or Israel.

Edited by orinjuse

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