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Christmas without Jesus

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Yeah those fucking ancient greek christians!

 

Because the population may have been Christian, does not mean that democracy and the modern first world was created by them. They could more strongly link their creation to reason and science, which is not really what Christianity has been known for. Also the Catholic church has never really been a strong supporter of secular freedoms that democracy grants. They'd be happier running the whole thing themselves.

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Catholicism/Christianity it could be argued established Democracy and the modern first world.

I would love to hear that argument.

 

It's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, but hell, it'll be entertaining.

 

Roughly.

 

All of western Europe, the Americas and what are considered first world countries were initially governed by a form of Christianity.

Going even further back it would have specifically been Roman Catholicism and the Pope.

 

Those values carried forward to modern times and are, admittedly, slowly deteriorating.

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All of western Europe, the Americas and what are considered first world countries were initially governed by a form of Christianity.

In what fashion were they governed by a form of Christianity?

 

On the Pope side of things, I'm pretty sure that was purely a combination of feudal & theocratic. They adopted democracy only after it became popular. Like most social & political things, they follow trends, they don't initiate them.

Edited by SexKitten

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Catholicism/Christianity it could be argued established Democracy and the modern first world.

I would love to hear that argument.

 

It's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, but hell, it'll be entertaining.

 

Yeah, I mean, like what is this 'democracy' of which he speaks, I've heard about it but not sure it's ever been practised anywhere, even in ancient Greece.

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One religion however, Catholicism/Christianity it could be argued established Democracy and the modern first world.

You could argue it, but you'd be wrong, at least about democracy. The Greeks established democracy. You could say one of the seeds of democracy in British culture was the Magna Carta, and they were a Christian nation at the time, true, but not Catholic - they were largely Protestant at the time, I believe.

 

Regarding the 'modern first world', you obviously seem to think only Western countries are in the first world. It seems a bit silly to say Christianity established Japan, South Korea, Taiwan or Israel.

 

You're quite right with some of your examples. also as a correction it should have read, established democracy in the modern first world. It reads like they invented Democracy which is obviously incorrect. However I contend the ties between democratic countries and Christianity are undeniable.

 

In regards to your examples.

 

Japan- true, good example

 

Taiwan, was tribal before the Dutch and Portuguese (both Christian countries) arrived and established trading posts.

 

Britain established Israel, so effectively a majority Christian country gave Jews a place to live.

 

South Korea was established by western democratic majority christian countries.

 

 

Also when you talk about flavors of Christianity, they all stemmed originally from Roman Catholicism so I have no problem with working with the term Christian on this basis

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Catholicism/Christianity it could be argued established Democracy and the modern first world.

I would love to hear that argument.

 

It's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, but hell, it'll be entertaining.

 

Roughly.

 

All of western Europe, the Americas and what are considered first world countries were initially governed by a form of Christianity.

Going even further back it would have specifically been Roman Catholicism and the Pope.

 

Those values carried forward to modern times and are, admittedly, slowly deteriorating.

 

I'm not going to deny that Christianity was a big part of the cultural history of a lot of current first-world countries, but you're using a lot of absolute terms to talk about something that's far from absolute.

 

For instance, what do you mean by 'initially'? Europe didn't start all of a sudden the day Jesus popped out, and even if it did, Christianity took quite a while to spread through Europe - hundreds of years, in fact. For a long time pre-Christianity, Europe had a whole range of different religions; Norse, druidic, Roman, Greek, all sorts of stuff.

 

But all that's just fiddling on the edges. Your core argument is that values specific to Christianity led to Western culture becoming dominant. I think you're wrong.

 

The key things that led to Europe's rise were these, roughly: the region's fertility and natural resources; the constant conflict between European nations developing their skill at making war; the naval arms race, primarily island Britain's naval power, and as an extension of that; Britain's successful colonisation/occupation of foreign lands (which is due to a whole swathe of factors, some of which I guess you could say were based on Christianity but most of which were based on their economic and political models or just sheer good fortune).

 

What do you believe are the values specific to Christianity that instead led to that rise? Have a think whether they're actually exclusive to Christianity though, because if other cultures also had them then you'll have to explain why they weren't similarly ascendant.

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To make it clear Michael100, I understand the correlation you're talking about. The questions I'm asking is pertaining to the causation. In what way do you think Christianity caused the first world country model?

 

*EDIT* I'm contending that what you're talking about is related to the Age of Enlightenment/Reason, which was very distinctly opposed to doing things because of traditional & religious standards.

Edited by SexKitten

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Catholicism/Christianity it could be argued established Democracy and the modern first world.

I would love to hear that argument.

 

It's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, but hell, it'll be entertaining.

 

Roughly.

 

All of western Europe, the Americas and what are considered first world countries were initially governed by a form of Christianity.

Going even further back it would have specifically been Roman Catholicism and the Pope.

 

Those values carried forward to modern times and are, admittedly, slowly deteriorating.

 

I'm not going to deny that Christianity was a big part of the cultural history of a lot of current first-world countries, but you're using a lot of absolute terms to talk about something that's far from absolute.

 

For instance, what do you mean by 'initially'? Europe didn't start all of a sudden the day Jesus popped out, and even if it did, Christianity took quite a while to spread through Europe - hundreds of years, in fact. For a long time pre-Christianity, Europe had a whole range of different religions; Norse, druidic, Roman, Greek, all sorts of stuff.

 

But all that's just fiddling on the edges. Your core argument is that values specific to Christianity led to Western culture becoming dominant. I think you're wrong.

 

The key things that led to Europe's rise were these, roughly: the region's fertility and natural resources; the constant conflict between European nations developing their skill at making war; the naval arms race, primarily island Britain's naval power, and as an extension of that; Britain's successful colonisation/occupation of foreign lands (which is due to a whole swathe of factors, some of which I guess you could say were based on Christianity but most of which were based on their economic and political models or just sheer good fortune).

 

What do you believe are the values specific to Christianity that instead led to that rise? Have a think whether they're actually exclusive to Christianity though, because if other cultures also had them then you'll have to explain why they weren't similarly ascendant.

 

 

If we use the concept of "Christendom" which compasses all Jesus based religions.

My argument is that because European government from the middle ages on was essentially based in Christendom or to put it another way, the religion was the government- and its these values that gave rise to modern Europe and in turn the modern 1st world. I mean yeah the extent these values have on the countries today is debatable. But the history behind the Christian government of Europe for over a thousand years is pretty much fact.

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Catholicism/Christianity it could be argued established Democracy and the modern first world.

HAHAHA, while we are throwing ridiculous theories around.

I believe that the greeks then the romans were the ones who invented democracy, then some time later a few of the smarter ones got together and wrote the bible to help control people, as their military might began to fail.

Therefore democracy came first.

Edited by p0is(+)n

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If we use the concept of "Christendom" which compasses all Jesus based religions.

My argument is that because European government from the middle ages on was essentially based in Christendom or to put it another way, the religion was the government- and its these values that gave rise to modern Europe and in turn the modern 1st world. I mean yeah the extent these values have on the countries today is debatable. But the history behind the Christian government of Europe for over a thousand years is pretty much fact.

You mean the Dark Ages? That we only got out of from getting away from theocracies?

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If we use the concept of "Christendom" which compasses all Jesus based religions.

My argument is that because European government from the middle ages on was essentially based in Christendom or to put it another way, the religion was the government- and its these values that gave rise to modern Europe and in turn the modern 1st world. I mean yeah the extent these values have on the countries today is debatable. But the history behind the Christian government of Europe for over a thousand years is pretty much fact.

You mean the Dark Ages? That we only got out of from getting away from theocracies?

 

SO your saying that our Politicians celebrate Dracula and suck the life out of us citizens?

 

Back to the OP ,this country was founded on Christian Values which included Christmas and Easter. Its only in the Last decade other religions have been voicing their concerns about the strong presence of Christian values in our Society that it is affecting their religious values. IF we are a True Multicultural Society then we must accept all religious values as they are ,and not push them away.

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SO your saying that our Politicians celebrate Dracula and suck the life out of us citizens?

See my posts above re: correlation and causation as well as adopting popular social & political concepts.

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its these values that gave rise to modern Europe and in turn the modern 1st world.

Which values specifically, though? As SK says, correlation does not equal causation.

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If we use the concept of "Christendom" which compasses all Jesus based religions.

My argument is that because European government from the middle ages on was essentially based in Christendom or to put it another way, the religion was the government- and its these values that gave rise to modern Europe and in turn the modern 1st world. I mean yeah the extent these values have on the countries today is debatable. But the history behind the Christian government of Europe for over a thousand years is pretty much fact.

You mean the Dark Ages? That we only got out of from getting away from theocracies?

 

No , the middle ages.

 

The Theocracy you speak about was reformed during the Reformation into Individual capitalist Monarchies/Democracies.

 

That's in essence the link between Christendom and the foundations of Europe

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If we use the concept of "Christendom" which compasses all Jesus based religions.

My argument is that because European government from the middle ages on was essentially based in Christendom or to put it another way, the religion was the government- and its these values that gave rise to modern Europe and in turn the modern 1st world. I mean yeah the extent these values have on the countries today is debatable. But the history behind the Christian government of Europe for over a thousand years is pretty much fact.

You mean the Dark Ages? That we only got out of from getting away from theocracies?

 

No , the middle ages.

 

The Theocracy you speak about was reformed during the Reformation into Individual capitalist Monarchies/Democracies.

 

That's in essence the link between Christendom and the foundations of Europe

 

The Reformation happened in the 16th century, right at the end of 1,000 years of theocratic & feudal rule. 1200-1600 was an easing off of that, true. But it was the withdrawal of church rule that allowed progress. The reformation came about because of church corruption. It then went further during the Age of Reason/Enlightenment, separating itself from those schisms starting around the 17th century.

 

If we're talking about modern democratic society, withdrawal from church and religious rule is the correlation.

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Sure any religion is as valid, spiritually as another- agreed.

I would argue that is not the case. Scientology anyone?

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In terms of correlation Vs causation.

 

It's obvious that there is heavy historical correlation with Christendom and the rise of Europe.

 

In terms of causation,it's a lot harder to prove beyond a doubt.

 

However Ill give you an idea.The 10 commandments were essentially viewed as a Jewish thing, but Jesus mentioned was legitimately written by the hand of God so they do get a mention in Christianity

 

However he expanded on them and with the Catechisms, which are kind of like a Jesus rules version of the 10 commandments rules were formed like these ones

 

Obedience and honor" to "all who for our good have received authority in society from God".

Payment of taxes, exercising the right to vote and defending one's country".

An obligation to be vigilant and critical", which requires citizens to criticize that which harms human dignity and the community.

A duty to disobey" civil authorities and directives that are contrary to the moral order.

To practice charity", which is a "necessity for any working family or society"; it is the "greatest social commandment" and requires people to love God and neighbor.

To welcome the foreigner" who is in need of security and livelihood that cannot be found in his own country.

An obligation for rich nations to help poor nations", especially in times of "immediate need".

An expectation for families to help other families

 

 

These are the values that ideally are represented by modern Democracies that have their roots in Christianity or perhaps more appropriately Judeo Christianity if you consider the 10 commandments.

 

Certainly they are not EXCLUSIVE to Christianity, but ideally I've shown enough historical correlation to Europe and causation (if you like) for you guys to at least consider the opinion less dismissively.

 

 

If we use the concept of "Christendom" which compasses all Jesus based religions.

My argument is that because European government from the middle ages on was essentially based in Christendom or to put it another way, the religion was the government- and its these values that gave rise to modern Europe and in turn the modern 1st world. I mean yeah the extent these values have on the countries today is debatable. But the history behind the Christian government of Europe for over a thousand years is pretty much fact.

You mean the Dark Ages? That we only got out of from getting away from theocracies?

 

No , the middle ages.

 

The Theocracy you speak about was reformed during the Reformation into Individual capitalist Monarchies/Democracies.

 

That's in essence the link between Christendom and the foundations of Europe

 

The Reformation happened in the 16th century, right at the end of 1,000 years of theocratic & feudal rule. 1200-1600 was an easing off of that, true. But it was the withdrawal of church rule that allowed progress. The reformation came about because of church corruption. It then went further during the Age of Reason/Enlightenment, separating itself from those schisms starting around the 17th century.

 

If we're talking about modern democratic society, withdrawal from church and religious rule is the correlation.

 

I disagree that It was a withdrawal of church rule that allowed progress to the enlightenment age, as Henry the VIII (for example) simply made himself head of another "church".

Same in other areas of Catholic rule across Europe. The church didnt withdraw, they just changed

 

When the individual countries stood to rule themselves and not send money to Rome they grew in wealth and standing armies. Which drove the competition for knowledge and in turn the Age of reason and enlightenment. The moral code of the countries was still based in Christian beliefs, they just weren't ruled by them

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New Zealand was the first true democracy. That lasted anyway.

pretty sure the greeks were doing it 500bc. not sure if thats what you mean by lasted.. but the evidence certainly did, and it spread from there.

 

democracy is supposed to be about equality and acceptance of others, which is not a trait I associate with christianity. I also compare the christian god to the ultimate dictator. Do as I say or burn in hell quite literally for all of eternity. Sounds democratic :)

 

Think this is getting off topic now.. a bit

Edited by p0is(+)n

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I would argue that no state without universal sufferage can be called a true democracy. In fact I think that would be a fairly widespread definition.

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Nup. No universal sufferage there.

I would argue its close enough to be considered a real democracy, all citizens had the opportunity to be heard etc.

The men would have spoken for the women of their house/family at that time.

This is just off topic nit picking now though :)

Edited by p0is(+)n

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In terms of correlation Vs causation.

 

It's obvious that there is heavy historical correlation with Christendom and the rise of Europe.

 

In terms of causation,it's a lot harder to prove beyond a doubt.

 

However Ill give you an idea.The 10 commandments were essentially viewed as a Jewish thing, but Jesus mentioned was legitimately written by the hand of God so they do get a mention in Christianity

 

However he expanded on them and with the Catechisms, which are kind of like a Jesus rules version of the 10 commandments rules were formed like these ones

 

Obedience and honor" to "all who for our good have received authority in society from God".

Payment of taxes, exercising the right to vote and defending one's country".

An obligation to be vigilant and critical", which requires citizens to criticize that which harms human dignity and the community.

A duty to disobey" civil authorities and directives that are contrary to the moral order.

To practice charity", which is a "necessity for any working family or society"; it is the "greatest social commandment" and requires people to love God and neighbor.

To welcome the foreigner" who is in need of security and livelihood that cannot be found in his own country.

An obligation for rich nations to help poor nations", especially in times of "immediate need".

An expectation for families to help other families

 

 

These are the values that ideally are represented by modern Democracies that have their roots in Christianity or perhaps more appropriately Judeo Christianity if you consider the 10 commandments.

 

Certainly they are not EXCLUSIVE to Christianity, but ideally I've shown enough historical correlation to Europe and causation (if you like) for you guys to at least consider the opinion less dismissively.

Where are you getting those rules from, and where are you quoting from in those quote marks? I'm pretty sure there isn't any specific 'Jesus rule' in the bible telling people they have a right to vote.

 

Charity, treating strangers and neighbours well, obedience and struggle against injustice are far and away not values unique to Christianity. In fact, they're quite common in cultures all over the world. You seem to be saying that the rise of Western culture was down to it holding these lovely values that are extra special because they're 'Christian' values, which just happen to be the same as the values everyone else holds.

 

Beyond that, 'Christian Europe' did remarkably badly at upholding some of these values, quite often directly because of the religion. For instance, the long-running crusades again their neighbours would suggest that they didn't give a shit about 'welcoming foreigners', the constant intra-European wars and conflict between Christian splinter factions suggests they didn't give a shit about 'loving thy neighbour', and their very feudal system of government is almost anathema to 'helping the poor'.

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New Zealand was the first true democracy. That lasted anyway.

pretty sure the greeks were doing it 500bc. not sure if thats what you mean by lasted.. but the evidence certainly did, and it spread from there.

 

democracy is supposed to be about equality and acceptance of others, which is not a trait I associate with christianity. I also compare the christian god to the ultimate dictator. Do as I say or burn in hell quite literally for all of eternity. Sounds democratic :)

 

Think this is getting off topic now.. a bit

 

I don't know which fucked up version of Christianity you have been exposed to man , but I can assure you that fire and brimstone is not really something that's a core tenant of the Catholic faith.

 

Catholicism is more about being actively doing good and looking after your fellow humans as best you can.

 

 

That means no bullshit preaching about punishment and eternal damnation- no endless re-interpretation of scripture.

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