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Guest MrInsaneBuff

Bit of defence news, not 100% guaranteed yet.

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Also the dive to land. I thought he was going to pancake for sure.

Still my favourite bit of Caribou flying

From memory the this was at the Australian Bicentennial Airshow.

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No you are quite right the C-27J's are the caribou replacements and from the looks they spank them all over the skies. I do think we need C-130's in an ongoing nature. Because you can never have enough Airlift, tactical or strategic.

Yep the Herc fits right between Tactical and Strategic and Adds capability to both areas.

Edited by Waltish

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:)

 

A barrel roll CAN be a 1G manoeuvre, it can also be much higher - hard to tell if the clip shows that or a higher G roll.

 

Hercs are great, but you can't shoehorn them into the sort of strips that forward deployment typically involves. you'd be back to chucking everything, including troops, out the back door on 'chutes, whilst being highly vulnerable. That's why these sort of aircraft are invaluable for forward deployment often flying low and shoehorning into short, rough fields.

 

In today's world be it mercy missions or force projection this sort of aircraft is an essential part of the mix.

 

Nice clip Ali :)

 

Cheers

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If we really wanted CAS for places like Afghanistan we'd be looking at getting some Super Tucanos - we could use them to replace our Pilatus PC-9s for training as well then.

However, if we get the C-27J we could always adapt some for CAS by buying a couple more airframes and mounting an adapted Harvest HAWK weapons kit on board them. That way we're using (almost) off-the-shelf kit for them. Only issue is that it might be a squeeze fitting something like the 10 Griffin (or 4 Hellfire) missiles on a wing-mounted rack so close to the engines - the wing might not have the room that the Herc does to mount it on. The 30mm cannon coming out of the left-side troop door would be fine though.

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Those are some interesting thoughts Lancer, although I'm a also a little doubtful that Harvest Hawk could be adapted to the -27, but converting a couple of -27s to the gunship role would be pretty straightforward. That whole concept began with sticking guns out the doors and windows of old DC-3s/C47s after all. But its not a weapons system anyone but the Americans have ever adopted, there would be quite a learning curve.

 

As much as I'm not a chopper fan CAS in the areas we are likely to get involved in is probably better suited to attack helicopters.

 

But really a C-27 purchase is not about CAS, it's about replacing the Caribou, a delivery system rather than an attack system.

 

It's a hole in RAAF capability, and hardly the only one, although we are not alone in that.

 

Incidentally the F-35 programme seems to be back on track, the -B just competed a series of successful STOVL trials on the USS Wasp, seems the Lockheed Tiger Team/Skunk Works has pulled the rabbit out of the hat - again.

 

At what cost though is somewhat moot, depends upon eventual production run, figures of $90M to $200M depending upon version and quantity per copy are being bandied around and that's just fly-away cost.

 

Australia hasn't really put much money into the programme as yet, ironically I'm involved with a company building quite a bit of the composite components here in Australia. It's contractual so if Defence changed its mind it probably would not matter, but as I keep saying, nice airplane, too expensive and not really suited to our needs in terms of continental defence, only as a deployable weapons system.

 

I don't think I've ever seen any fighter since the Phantom actually hit or exceed its production goals and for every less order the individual cost rises.

 

I'm beginning to wonder, given the state of their economies, just how many of these the US ad UK are going to buy, let alone us.

 

I also wonder, given how good some of the latest Russian kit is, whether it is really as effective a foil as it claims to be.

 

Lots of things matter in a dominant fighter, range - it doesn't really have it, can deal with that with tankers, but that's extra trailing cost, manoeuvrability, seems perfectly ok in that regard, reliability, getting there, weapons systems, not truly a Lockheed responsibility, but that part should be fine, the pilot, those we have.

 

it's still not battle-ready, going to be a while.

 

Cheers

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Apparently the yanks did look at a variant of the C27j called the AC-27J Stinger II but it was dropped due to lack of funding.

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Whilst the C-27 is no herc replacement, numbers-wise that's essentially what it's doing. We've no plans to acquire any more hercs, and we'll be rolling back the H fleet as C-27 is introduced (if it happens). $60 million is also way off the fly-away price for the J model, it's closer to 9 figures. I reckon the J models we currently own will be the last hercules we will operate. Especially since they justified the 5th (and 6th) C-17 cost by scrapping plans for and additional 2 Js.

 

The super king-airs that replaced the caribous as interim light-transport/pilot-currency machines are doing a great job and I wouldn't be surprised if they keep them as an additional capability once whatever battlefield airlifter (likely C-27) comes along. Realistically, the caribou would never have survived any attempt to fly it in a modern battlefield environment, so the fixed-wing battlefield airlift capability is one we lost well before its retirement. What it did do, and could do better than any potential replacement, was operate in and out of ridiculously small strips on the side of hills in PNG. Unfortunately that's one thing we wont really be able to do again (except with helicopters obviously).

 

If we really wanted CAS for places like Afghanistan we'd be looking at getting some Super Tucanos - we could use them to replace our Pilatus PC-9s for training as well then.

However, if we get the C-27J we could always adapt some for CAS by buying a couple more airframes and mounting an adapted Harvest HAWK weapons kit on board them. That way we're using (almost) off-the-shelf kit for them. Only issue is that it might be a squeeze fitting something like the 10 Griffin (or 4 Hellfire) missiles on a wing-mounted rack so close to the engines - the wing might not have the room that the Herc does to mount it on. The 30mm cannon coming out of the left-side troop door would be fine though.

Good thoughts, but Super Tucanos do not appear to be really in the running for Project AIR 5428 (the pilot training replacement project). We will most likely be looking at T6-2Bs or PC-21s. Both of these would replace the 4 Squadron forward air control PC-9s once selected. They could be fitted very well for CAS/FAC but this is not a capability that the current Defence White Paper identifies as us needing. Neither is any sort of gunship transport, so I severely doubt that anyone has even considered the ability to modify C-27 to suit this role to be any influence on a purchase decision. As chrisg aptly pointed out, helicopters are far more suited to this in our small defence force.

 

Dude no one wants the A400, not even the brits and french want them. If it wouldnt cost them so much the brits would have backed out of their deal for them last year. Their massivley overpriced, for a marginal increase in capacity. You can buy a nearly 2 and a bit C-130's for the cost of 1 A400. Parts are apparently an issue for the A400 as well.

A400 on the other hand, don't believe everything you hear. Its testing is going very well and it will be an enormous increase in capability over C-130 for the countries that have ordered them. In fact the UK are champing at the bit to get them, as their C-130s—even the 'new' ones—are apparently getting on in years quicker than anticipated. The delays and extra cost in production have been its main issue. It can pretty much lift the weight of a fully-laden hercules by itself. This is a BIG aeroplane, and it looks like it will still be significantly cheaper than C-17 in both up-front and operating cost, and not even double the cost of C-130J once it goes into production (contrary to your links). I will admit everyone's still crossing their fingers that Airbus Military can deliver it at their quoted cost.

Edited by tailgunner

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Hmm,

 

Just what are you doing these days TG?

 

I thought you were civil :)

 

A-400 seems to be coming along rather well and yes, the UK have been working their Hercs very hard for various reasons, it's a good fit for their needs.

 

I do wonder when the Herc production line might close though, it remains an ideal aircraft for many requirements around the Globe.

 

Cheers

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I do wonder when the Herc production line might close though, it remains an ideal aircraft for many requirements around the Globe.

 

Cheers

Ye these sorts of decisions always amaze me. Got an ideal device that has had all it's R&D recovered and is just nicely making money? hey lets spend a shitload of cashola on a new gadget that does exactly the same thing but will take years or decades to recover the R&D on. Stupid fucking change for changes sake it seems.

The basic Hercy Bird design is a good solid platform (as witnessed by it's longevity in service) so why not keep production going and incorporate upgrades and tweaks as they are developed (especially in the electronics/avionics areas). Got to be massively cheaper than doing a ground up design.

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Guest MrInsaneBuff

Apparently the yanks did look at a variant of the C27j called the AC-27J Stinger II but it was dropped due to lack of funding.

They were going to be going into the US Army aviation wing initially. The Army had got sick of not being able to count on CAS from the AC-130's for their operations because SOCOM got higher priority. US Airforce got all argy bargy over who should control them. Then afterwards when the acquisition programme was folded into the US Airforce's budget. They killed the funding for it and moved the cash across to something else.

 

US Army got SCREWED.

 

I doubt that we would immediatly go ahead with a conversion of a few to AC spec's but its nice to have that option. Also it would be something else we could bring to the party for the joint deployments we seem to have become a routine member of. I don't think it would be easy for us to do it, but the road map is there, and by all accounts the AC-27J project was quite mature at the point it was cancelled. Its just nice to have it as an available option down the track.

 

 

TG im glad to hear that the T6 is in the running for a role in our forces, it looks like a good aircraft. I am unsure why the yanks dumped it so suddenly from their COIN competition, ASFAICT there hasnt been an actual public announcement detailing anything other than it was dropped. Again there has been a lot of work already done to give it CAS capabilites for COIN operations. So it is another instance of nice to have option for later if we so choose.

 

I'll try and be a bit more impartial about the A400. From what you have said it has an appearance of not being the utter pile of dog shit that the industry commentators who i have been listening to have said it is. I guess we will have to wait and see.

 

Has there been any other submisions for an aircraft that would fill the role of the C-27J? I cant find anything saying that its the case. I did see we squeezed in a new C-17 buy recently. Quite happy about that. Those things are worth their weight and their maximum load cargo capacity weight in gold!

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Has there been any other submisions for an aircraft that would fill the role of the C-27J? I cant find anything saying that its the case. I did see we squeezed in a new C-17 buy recently. Quite happy about that. Those things are worth their weight and their maximum load cargo capacity weight in gold!

The EADS CASA C-295 is the closest competitor in tactical troop transport. IIRC the C-27J has a wider and taller cargo bay, but the C-295 can be better adapted to other roles (there's AEW&C and maritime patrol versions planned). I seem to recall that the C-27J has a bit of commonality with the Herc as well, but I might be mistaken.

 

As for the A-400, it looks like the issue with it is that in most of the competitions that it's been in competition with the C-17, which is a huge strategic airlifter with an established customer (USAF) and maintenance 'eco-system'. Countries that were looking at the A-400 as a replacement or augmentation to their Herc fleets took a look at it and decided that they wanted a proper heavy airlift capability. That's what happened with the RAF and RAAF at least.

 

Where the A-400M looks nice is as an actual replacement for the Herc - it carries more for a longer distance, so it can keep up with ballooning vehicle weights (IED protection is the main culprit). Haven't looked at the costs properly for it though.

 

As for trainers I think that it's silly that we don't look for at least a light CAS capability on our trainer/FAC replacement.

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:)

 

I don't really take a lot of notice of transports tbh, but the -295 has been well reviewed, the 400 did catch my attention though, very bold concept.

 

I don't know with trainers, in theory a good idea to have a secondary attack capability, in practise a good way to get killed since we stopped training jet pilots on jets, Hawks would be nice...

 

Cheers

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Going back to Harvest HAWK for a second, this gives you an idea of what it packs:

Posted Image

 

Here's what SOPGM is:

Posted Image

It's a ramp-mounted launcher for 10 GBU-44 Viper Strike munitions - they're a small bomb, but nice for COIN and such.

 

With the C-27J based "Harvest HAWK-lite" idea, the only problem I've got is thinking of anywhere to put a EO/FLIR pod on the thing other than on a custom-fabricated wing mount. Best part about Harvest HAWK is that you can ship the kit to a forward airbase, kit up one of the KC-130Js that you're already using for chopper refuelling or cargo transport and you've got yourself a mini-gunship/surveillance platform. Doing this to a C-27 with no wing-mounted tanks that can be removed to mount stuff on might be an issue. Still, if you could even get a small pod on the wing, 10 GBU-44s and a 30mm poking out one of the doors might be mighty fine to have available at short notice.

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Yeah,

 

A very good evolution of the AC-130 concept, Zephyr and I saw one at Wright Patterson a few years back, it was awesome enough then and that was an early model.

 

Cheers

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Dude the RAAF are not going to be putting all that shit on the c-27 if they do buy it, all it will be doing is flying around and moving stuff around.

 

we have other platforms we use to blow shit up with and they do a much better job than a slow cargo plane.

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Probably Sturmie, but, ever seen a gun-ship pass?

 

Pretty bloody awesome - when the original Spookies, as in C-47 gun-ships came out with mini-guns someone came out with the statistic that a one second burst would put a round in every square inch of a tennis court. Having seen them shovelling brass out of those things I can well believe it.

 

A mate of mine with a rather quirky sense of humour said "Geez, that would really fuck up your game, even the ball would have a bullet through it." :)

 

Cheers

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Yeh I get they're impressive, but even the most stupid fuck involved in purchasing such an aircraft would fail to see the usefulness of such an aircraft for a country like us in out various peacekeeping roles.

 

cool yes! practical NO.

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Yeh I get they're impressive, but even the most stupid fuck involved in purchasing such an aircraft would fail to see the usefulness of such an aircraft for a country like us in out various peacekeeping roles.

 

cool yes! practical NO.

Totally agree.

 

Cheers

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Cya later defence budget. Cya later defence capabilities.

 

Welcome Female Soldiers to front line battle and the Labour Budget.

 

 

 

*cry

 

Yeh I get they're impressive, but even the most stupid fuck involved in purchasing such an aircraft would fail to see the usefulness of such an aircraft for a country like us in out various peacekeeping roles.

 

cool yes! practical NO.

+1

 

We need a Aircraft carrier that can launch bulk blackhawks.

 

That would be so much better for natural disaster relief staging area's and mass emergency evacutations. It could also drop an entire company of Commando's to the roof of every building in the city very quickly. Win win really

Edited by xnatex

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Cya later defence budget. Cya later defence capabilities.

 

Welcome Female Soldiers to front line battle and the Labour Budget.

 

*cry

I don't think its quite that bad. Most of the cuts are from delaying the F-35 purchase $1.3bn (not like they weren't already going to be delayed), cancelling the purchase of 35 self propelled howitzers $1.7bn, delaying the upgrade of defence facilities $1.2bn.

 

The rest of it is retiring a plane they were close to retiring anyways (C-130H), cutting civilian staff (hopefully not ones that actually do important jobs) and mothballing a few abrams and apcs.

 

So most of the cuts are stuff the libs will buy when the current goverment is voted out and there are purchases going ahead like the C-27J and the new submarines are still high on the list (hopefully we get ones fom the Japanese since the government will never buy nuke powered subs from the US). Also for defence we get 2500 US Marines stationed for training in/near Darwin soon.

Edited by rainspider

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hopefully the liberals dont sell out to Clive palmer and keep the mining tax then shift the money to defence, If anyone should prosper from the mining tax its the armed forces that died to protect that land.

 

While we are still fighting a war the government is keeping us involved in, we should be funding the people to fight it. The flow on effects from this cut will be big, i remember the last cuts years ago affected things like-

 

Bullets for shooting practice

petrol to convoy to training zones

amount of food we get and types we can eat

no spare parts for repairing our equipment

 

the list goes on, If they are talking about firing people you know they have cut deep, I wonder if by cutting peoples jobs Gillard thinks she can convert them to welfare dependant socialist voters ?

Edited by xnatex

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where do you get news from?

 

Posted Image

 

p.s. i use google news, but you probably wouldnt have heard of that, the internet is too mainstream

Edited by xnatex

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