Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Guest MrInsaneBuff

Bit of defence news, not 100% guaranteed yet.

Recommended Posts

Guest MrInsaneBuff

Seems someone has been listening to us. I am fairly certain a short while back we were discussing how Australia could benefit from purchasing a few AC-130’s, but then the ugly $$$ monster raised its head as being too expensive. We had also been discussing quite some time ago how the retirement of the Caribou transports had been a mistake, and there had been nothing really good enough to replace them for size and ability.

 

Well it appears the Government is considering a purchase of 10 C27J’s + a bunch of support equipment for them. What is cool about it is that it is the exact same airframe that the US Army were looking at for their medium size AC program. I read about the C-27J back then and I think we might have discussed it here as well. It appears to be quite a handy little transport aircraft. It might not be overly sexy right now, but from what I remember of the US Army’s program, the conversion costs to an AC-27 wasn’t overly expensive. Which would make this thing VERY sexy.

 

I hope this moves forward just for the transport aspect alone, but maybe with a bit of pushing we could finally be able get our own dedicated CAS platforms to oversee our own troops on our own missions for extended periods of time. Rather than calling the yanks and keeping our fingers crossed that they don’t have something more “important” to do at the time.

 

So what are your thoughts? Good buy? Boondoggle?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ten planes? Sorry if I don't understand the logistics, but how will TEN planes do shit to improve anything?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ten planes? Sorry if I don't understand the logistics, but how will TEN planes do shit to improve anything?

What do you mean by "improve anything"?

 

We are retiring 12 C-130s.

Until they are replaced, the roles the 12 C-130s fulfilled cannot be carried out.

When we have these 10 planes, presumably they will fulfil those roles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aren't we giving Indonesia a bunch of old Hercules? Nice that despite happily receiving foreign such as this they can somehow find the money to buy and maintain a fleet of Su-27/derivatives.

 

It's small beans though compared to the F-35 debacle.

 

At the rate it's slipping, we'll probably need a second interim lease/purchase because the Super Hornets will wear out.

 

I guess given the fact we have thousands serving overseas, such a transport aquisition is a good move assuming they'll get used in the field.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The retirement of the Caribous was not a mistake, those things needed to be retired as they were completely fucked! Having flown in them and experiencing some crazy shit that if it were a commercial airline the story would be on the front page of every paper etc etc.

 

Haven't heard much about the replacement aircraft for the herc but it seems like a sensible kind of purchase.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MM interesting, an Italian design aircraft with the engines and systems of the C-130J Super Hercules (according to Wiki). Should mean that the ADF maintenance crews already have most of the knowledge and training to maintain them, which should help with maintenance costs. Should make a decent replacement for the venerable Caribou.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah,

 

Heard about this, makes sense, the Caribou's were unreal, but they did work hard, became very tired.

 

One of the few aircraft I've ever seen that could reverse though :)

 

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm still wondering why we got super hornets.

:)

 

Um, yes, but I think I expressed my thoughts on that rather exhaustively quite a while ago :)

 

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well we got super hornets because the f111's were stuffed as well, a co-worker used to be a blackhander on them and they were fucked to the point they leaked fuel and oil just sitting on the tarmac. Buying the superhornets makes some sense in that training staff wouldn't be that hard as compared to buy a whole new airframe.

 

You would have to purchase equipment, parts, a new flight simulator and all that other crap that goes with new airframes. this makes sense for the stop gap idea but the real mind fuck is why the fuck are we getting the fucked up idea that is the JSF?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well we got super hornets because the f111's were stuffed as well, a co-worker used to be a blackhander on them and they were fucked to the point they leaked fuel and oil just sitting on the tarmac. Buying the superhornets makes some sense in that training staff wouldn't be that hard as compared to buy a whole new airframe.

 

You would have to purchase equipment, parts, a new flight simulator and all that other crap that goes with new airframes. this makes sense for the stop gap idea but the real mind fuck is why the fuck are we getting the fucked up idea that is the JSF?

if the JSF was ever going to be on time, that time frame would be ideal. but it is my under standing that bolstering our F18's with more was not a real replacement for F111.

 

didn't we invest in the JSF?

 

 

 

I'm still wondering why we got super hornets.

:)

 

Um, yes, but I think I expressed my thoughts on that rather exhaustively quite a while ago :)

 

Cheers

 

If you could link it, I could save some retyping. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The need for C-27 is questionable for Australia IMO. The H model hercules that are due for retirement between 2014 & 2016 could be flown on, and be more versatile, until the end of this decade or later. At that stage the J models will be on their last legs, and we could replace the whole lot with something larger, like A400. A lot of the army's kit these days doesn't fit into a Herc, let alone a C27. The US have basically completely scrapped the project as well, reducing any interoperability benefits that may have existed.

 

Still, it's a good tactical battlefield airlifter, with a lot of systems in common with the C-130J (hence the J in C27J), so I can see how it'd be a reasonable purchase for the RAAF. It just won't deliver any real, percievable increase in airlift capability.

Edited by tailgunner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you could link it, I could save some retyping. :D

A quick search of the green room for Frankenplane should find it.

:-)

Don't bump them though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The need for C-27 is questionable for Australia IMO. The H model hercules that are due for retirement between 2014 & 2016 could be flown on, and be more versatile, until the end of this decade or later. At that stage the J models will be on their last legs, and we could replace the whole lot with something larger, like A400. A lot of the army's kit these days doesn't fit into a Herc, let alone a C27. The US have basically completely scrapped the project as well, reducing any interoperability benefits that may have existed.

 

Still, it's a good tactical battlefield airlifter, with a lot of systems in common with the C-130J (hence the J in C27J), so I can see how it'd be a reasonable purchase for the RAAF. It just won't deliver any real, percievable increase in airlift capability.

Don't we have C17ERs for the heavy lifting though? The C27Js are pretty much between the C130Js and the Caribous in carry weight and I would assume be used in situations where the globemasters aren't suited.

 

The A400s are also around triple the cost to buy compared to the C27Js (52.9m USD vs 136m Euros*)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The C-27J looks to be the Bees Knees for supporting ground troops and humanitarian missions into crappy landing sites.

 

------------------------------------------

Copy Paste below from the link

http://www.c27j.com/essential-facts

 

Essential Facts

 

The C-27J Spartan is the perfect fixed-wing multipurpose cargo aircraft for today’s diverse missions. Extremely maneuverable and versatile, the rugged C-27J boasts the highest power-to-weight ratio in its class and the ability to perform 3.0g force maneuvers in the style of fighter aircraft, enabling tight turns and a rapid climb and descent. The C-27J can fly farther, faster and higher than any other twin engine military transport aircraft in its class.

 

The C-27J features the unique capability to vary cargo floor height and continuously adjust attitude, ensuring easy loading and unloading of large volume, highdensity payloads without ground support equipment and also facilitating drive-in/out of vehicles so that they can be in use immediately.

 

The C-27J offers significantly more capability than any other aircraft in its class. Its large flight envelope allows it to carry out the most demanding tactical missions quickly, safely and effectively.

 

The C-27J’s structural strength, power and system redundancy provide a high level of safety and an unbeatable mission accomplishment rate. The C-27J has outstanding threat-avoidance capabilities, including a take-off ground run of about 1,900 feet at maximum take-off weight on an unpaved surface. In a tactical environment, the aircraft is capable of climbing to 10,000 ft in 3 minutes, descending from 10,000 ft in under 2.5 minutes, and can handle up to 3.0g forces. At its maximum landing weight, the C-27J has a ground roll of less than 1,115 ft.

 

No other aircraft in its class can offer a solution with comparable range, payload, flexibility or reliability.

 

----------------------------------------

 

Another good link http://air-attack.com/page/85/C-27J-Spartan.html

 

I like it a Lot... its probably the best in capability and most cost effective Caribou replacement we could get.

 

At the end of this clip the C-27J Spartan reverse taxies, and during the flight it barrel rolls and also does a 3G turn (empty of course).... more I find out about its capabilities the more I like it as a Caribou replacement.

 

Edited by Waltish

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Impressive - very impressive, hang some guns on that and you'll have one hell of a gunship.

 

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Impressive - very impressive, hang some guns on that and you'll have one hell of a gunship.

 

Cheers

Shit hot the mad bastard even did a bit of knife edge flight (at 3:44).

Yes very Impressive.

Edited by aliali

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest MrInsaneBuff

The need for C-27 is questionable for Australia IMO. The H model hercules that are due for retirement between 2014 & 2016 could be flown on, and be more versatile, until the end of this decade or later. At that stage the J models will be on their last legs, and we could replace the whole lot with something larger, like A400. A lot of the army's kit these days doesn't fit into a Herc, let alone a C27. The US have basically completely scrapped the project as well, reducing any interoperability benefits that may have existed.

 

Still, it's a good tactical battlefield airlifter, with a lot of systems in common with the C-130J (hence the J in C27J), so I can see how it'd be a reasonable purchase for the RAAF. It just won't deliver any real, percievable increase in airlift capability.

 

Dude no one wants the A400, not even the brits and french want them. If it wouldnt cost them so much the brits would have backed out of their deal for them last year. Their massivley overpriced, for a marginal increase in capacity. You can buy a nearly 2 and a bit C-130's for the cost of 1 A400. Parts are apparently an issue for the A400 as well.

 

data on price's derived from here http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qi...14012556AA8Swyt and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Mart..._Super_Hercules

 

The army kit you are refering to that doesnt fit, is that the Abrams tanks, and Tiger attack helicopters? Because both of those are usually transported by our C-17's. i cant think of much else we have that wont fit in a C-130. The C27j's arent meant for heavy ligt. You correctly defined them as tactical lift. Their job would be to move troops, and basic supplies for those troops to forward area's. By their stats they also appear to be able to come into hot zones, to do combat resupply runs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly MrInsaneBuff its our Caribou replacement, and it is what I think is the best one on offer for that role.

 

Maybe the C17 and the C27J have made the Herc C130 redundant but I don't really think so, could be that closer towards the end of our current C130's operational life that there will be moves to consider buying more of the Latest C130's or what we might buy instead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:)

 

Hercs are like Dc-3s, I don't think they will ever die :)

 

Why should they? They are proven, versatile, affordable, understood by generations of air mechs and fit the gap nicely below the very expensive but also rather awesome C-17.

 

Their spar-cracking is a bit odd, in case you don't know, just about every C-130 generates spar cracks in their first few hours of flight - those then stabilise and on they go - I could be out of date on that, been a while since I was in a Herc, and also since I last spoke to anyone who is on them in any capacity, but it was the same with the Electra as I recall.

 

If only the C-27 had sticks rather than yokes... :) (fighter pilot preference :)

 

Brilliant piece of demonstration flying, it truly is :)

 

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chris, to keep our H models flying for another decade they would probably need re-sparring, but it would be a lot cheaper than other options and as you said they could basically fly forever. They would also need some avionics upgrades ie TCAS. I've been flying them for a few years now and would love for them to stick around for another 5 or 6, but that probably won't happen. The Indonesians will be still flying our old aeroplanes in 30 years time, just wait and see!

 

I reckon that airshow demo is what sold the C27 to our politicians, rather than sitting back and deciding what our capabilities really need to be. Fucking great show though!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chris, to keep our H models flying for another decade they would probably need re-sparring, but it would be a lot cheaper than other options and as you said they could basically fly forever. They would also need some avionics upgrades ie TCAS. I've been flying them for a few years now and would love for them to stick around for another 5 or 6, but that probably won't happen. The Indonesians will be still flying our old aeroplanes in 30 years time, just wait and see!

 

I reckon that airshow demo is what sold the C27 to our politicians, rather than sitting back and deciding what our capabilities really need to be. Fucking great show though!

:)

 

That summed it up rather well :)

 

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest MrInsaneBuff

But a C-130J model is only 60ish mil why not buy a few of those to replace our old H's?

 

Just watched the airshow. Was bloody awesome. The barrel roll is only a 1 G manouver, but still cool to see a airacft that size do one. Also the dive to land. I thought he was going to pancake for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dont think they are meant to replace the Hercs , since the Caribou went we have had a capability gap in the close tactical support Area and I am sure the C-27J is meant to fill that slot, When the Hercs go we will have another gap in between the close tactical C-27J and the heavy Lift C-17 capabilities, whether or not that gap is wide enough to need covering will become obvious in time.

Edited by Waltish

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest MrInsaneBuff

No you are quite right the C-27J's are the caribou replacements and from the looks they spank them all over the skies. I do think we need C-130's in an ongoing nature. Because you can never have enough Airlift, tactical or strategic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×