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Oscar40

Upside down power!

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Alright.

 

Firstly, I would request that everyone calm down. The OPINION of one person on the internet is not worth getting excited about.

 

Secondly.

 

 

The hilarious arrogance of darklife's post is a joy to behold. Especially since he's arguing against himself - there's a difference between "good cases have a PSU at the bottom" and "a case is only good if they have the PSU at the bottom". Bad interpretation leads to stupidly arrogant and long post. Kudos!

It's not just here.

 

Check out this threadload of derp: http://forums.atomicmpc.com.au/index.php?s...=48067&st=0

 

How could we mere mortals ever hope to understand his needlessly complicated misuse of the IPv4 address space?

 

SquallStrife - please to not introduce a discussion or argument from another thread for a point score. It has nothing to do with the OP and is only serving to degenerate this thread further. As far as I can tell this type of thing is pretty much frowned upon. Considering it a friendly warning not to do it again.

 

Lastly, darklife41. I read your last post. I have some advice for you.

 

Keep it factual and to the point. The WOT (wall of text) serves absolutely no purpose and your arguments could have been made clearer, simpler and with more effect than going through all of that. Apple is a company who knows the merits of keeping it simple and their message sells. They are American if what the papers say is true so I guess you would know about the effectiveness of simple messages. I will also state that the last two sentences actually introduced nothing to my point other than to make the point that introducing statements that add nothing to the point just make for a long and boring read where your point will become hopelessly lost, possibly on an island somewhere that ends up, after a number of seasons ending in a disappointing finale which just showed the writers of the show had NFI what they were doing (or what the drugs were they were taking) during the creative process they embarked on.

 

How is this for simple. I would suggest that ALL combatants kindly put their righteous indignation away and return to the topic. Attack the BALL not MAN please.

Edited by The Tick

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Well back on topic, I had my psu facing downwards for four years in my Antec p182 with no fan in the bottom chamber, and no cut out for the psu. It's still working fine (touch wood).

 

As long as there is a gap for the psu to suck in air you should be sweet. If it's flush against the floor, then your fucked. Kinda obvious really. :p

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Lastly, darklife41. I read your last post. I have some advice for you.

 

Keep it factual and to the point. The WOT (wall of text) serves absolutely no purpose and your arguments could have been made clearer, simpler and with more effect than going through all of that. Apple is a company who knows the merits of keeping it simple and their message sells.

I've been calm all along. I'll take what you said as a warning too, but you needn't chase me off. I'll leave willingly (actually because Caelum told me to). :-)

 

Last post before I delete my SN as it's quite apparent that I can't contribute on this forum in the way that I'm comfortable with, without someone having to put on their poo pants and have a whinge. I imagine most of these whinging members are decent people in real life. But put a keyboard in their hands and make them anonymous and they (not all, just some of them) forget their manners. :-)

 

My last post had nothing to do with this thread. It's my 1st post that sparked all this nonsense, and that is the one you need to focus on with the aftermath. In my 1st post, we'll have to agree to disagree that the WOT served no purpose.

 

I take exception to your analysis of "one reader's opinion". I could have left out the comments about the ignorant posts, but then that was my entire point. Not a single poster prior to my own understood what they were talking about, let alone had any evidence to back up their opinions. The way I see it, there's 15 years of my research on cases, positive pressure, and hardware placements condensed into a single post (although primarily the last 3 years with bottom mounted PSUs, but my research goes back much farther for air flow tests on cases). There's a ton of info and the methods that I used - and anyone else can use - to gather evidence to back up my claim that there is no measureable difference between mounting a PSU fan up or down, when the case is built properly. I also went on to explain just what "properly" is, being a positively pressured system. No one disputed my evidence because they can't, having not done the experiments themselves. I still invite them to do so, rather than take my word for it. But that post was not opinion, it was facts supported by evidence.

 

Could it have been made clearer? I seriously doubt it. The information is all there and accurate. I created that post over several hours (not all at once) and thought very hard about how I wanted to word it. It was important to me to have all of that information there because I see forums as a resource for knowledge, and especially an enthusiasts' forum such as this.

 

My 1st post may be too much for many of today's limited attention spans to absorb, but that's the beauty of the written word - it can be read over and over until it IS all absorbed, and according to each reader's schedule. It can be totally disregarded by those who have no interest. It's there for as long as the forum remains intact for anyone to refer to later on.

 

Do you want a forum which provides useful information, or a forum that provides a free for all where opinions rule? Because if you deleted my 1st post from this thread, you'd have nothing but a free for all based upon ignorant opinions. I think you mods should put your heads together and have a serious think about this one. AtomicMPC should also do their own testing to prove or disprove my results, rather than label it an opinion without your own facts to support your view.

 

Then again, maybe that's the difference between today's culture and the one I grew up in. Our attention spans were held to a much higher standard. We were taught that there's no such thing as too much information, but there's definitely such a thing as not enough information. We were required to read novels and do 10 page book reports on them to prove our reading comprehension, and improve our writing skills and overall knowledge. Today kids do a search and copy/paste their answers from wikipedia. No wonder we're currently hurting for highly technical positions in AU? We don't want to hire anyone over 45 with experience, and we don't have any young people with enough education to do the jobs. Think about it. And when you're 50+ years old, think about it again as you compare what this generation accomplishes compared to the last several generations did.

 

But please don't ban Squallstrife as he's the most entertaining, presumptuous, and argumentative member on this forum (although lacking in scruples). He's been warned countless times... er, about what? Warnings mean nothing without action to back them up.

 

And that, sir, is my advice to you. :-)

 

Seriously though, you're going to use Apple as a supposedly convincing argument to a PC builder? You must be joking! Just for that, you have to go back and read every post I've ever written again, and do 12 Hail Marys. If I want a flashy music player that sounds like crap, there's plenty of good alternatives. But then I'm a bit of an audiophile, so I require quality over flash (er, wait, apple doesn't do Flash.. doh! (intentional play on words)). Apple's computer sales have been in the tank since inception. No Apple products are allowed in our home. :-)

 

 

As my last contribution to this forum, here's as simple and factual an argument as I can make to Mbps measurement fans:

 

The bit measuring system was designed to work on network equipment which needed to break information into smaller pieces, such as routers and servers. It was never designed to be a standard for measuring download/upload speeds. It fails miserably to give us an accurate idea of our actual speeds.

 

When moving here, my reaction to Mbps was exactly like some of yours to GB modems in the USA (measured by the hour, not by the second as some here have mistakenly assumed). I thought "wtf does Mbps have to do with download speeds, and why would anyone choose to reinvent the wheel with a perfectly good measuring system in place for decades?"

 

Of course Mbps is a metric measurement, which explains why the USA will likely never adopt it for measuring bandwidth.

 

1 megabit = 1 million bits of data (for speed measurements, it's different for storage measurements). Great! Now I'm at bits per second and metric is easy because it's done by round numbers, right?. Wait, 8 million bits per second = 1 million kilobytes per second. So much for the round numbers. Why convert it to kb/s?

 

Let's choose an American app that has never adopted the Mbps system, like M$'s Internet Explorer (for the record, Opera is not American and uses the same system, not sure about FF as I can't stand it). When you download with IE, your speed is measured by kb/s, or mb/s if you have a very fast connection, etc..

 

Does anyone have a hard time understanding kb/s? Of course not. Everyone understands kilobytes per second as it's what we're used to seeing. Our hard drives (no matter which country the manufactuer comes from) use the same system for storage measurement with bytes, kilobytes, megabytes, gigabytes, and so on (although they cheat and use multiples of 1000 rather than multiples of 1024 to make it sound better - similar to Apple marketing practices ;-) ).

 

kb/s is a realistic benchmark of actual download speed in that I'm truly downloading so many kilobytes every second - which will equate to megabytes, and eventually gigabytes and terabytes. Those same numbers are used for my storage drives and every file size in the world. So I can do the math in my head to figure out how long a download will take when seeing file size. I know which file sizes will fit on my hard drives and which won't. This system makes sense and is easy for me to understand, because it all ties together. In the old days, a 7 GB modem told me that it was capable of transferring 7 GB of data over an hour. That's simple for me to understand and again, it all ties together. Obviously modems are much faster now, but that was an example from a decade ago.

 

I can't do the same with Mbps, as it's not an accurate way of telling me how much actual data I'm downloading per second, per minute, or per hour. Can anyone honestly say that they can translate Mbps into actual download time with various file sizes in their head? To do the math I need a calculator (maybe I'm special that way). I have to convert Mbps to bytes and then back to kbs, in order to understand how much data is actually being transferred and at what speed.

 

So laugh all you want. Using Mbps for a measurement of data transfer speeds is nothing more than a complicated system of doing what browsers, modems, and ISPs have done for years simply - in my humble opinion. :-)

 

Here's some help for those who don't understand, or would like to learn more about Mbps:

 

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-mbps.htm

Edited by darklife41

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mudg3, Caelum, chrisbrownie, thank you for your comforting words. The derp-side of the force was so strong I was beginning to doubt my sanity!

 

The Tick, no problem, I think I might have had an aneurysm if this continued anyway.

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I seriously don't know why I bother sometimes.

 

darklife41. You have missed my point completely is seems. I was never arguing that Apple was a valid ... Oh screw it it's not like it's going to sink in this time either.

 

Thread back on topic, egos back in their cages please should anyone accidentally step on one.

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What the fuck?

 

 

I haven't asked you to leave.

 

 

Due to your lies and bullshit, now i am asking you to leave though. Jesus christ.

 

 

Sorry Tick.. Had to be said.

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Fark another wall of text!

 

I'm bored, but I'm not quite bored enough to even bother with that drivel.

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It should get POTM for so much LOL's.

 

But it is sad when someone gets sand in their vagina and feels like they should take their ball and go home...for all of 1/5 of a second.

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Holy hell, what a great read this is.

 

I've had my PSU fan facing down ever since they were top-mounted; I'm sure if it was THAT important then manufacturers would communicate it clearer. There's an air gap underneath, I'm sure the unit can breathe well enough. Never had it overheat.

 

Besides, I don't want crap falling into my PSU through a fan grille... be it a GPU sticker like a bloke in this thread, tiny dust bunnies or a beer I hopefully never spill through the top outtake of my P183.

 

*touches wood*

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Like I said, many ignorant posts from ametuer builders. And still, no one has yet to mention a PSU overheating from being placed fan down in a case without holes on the bottom. All insults aside, I believe I've proven my point.

 

And Caelum is obviously an egomaniac who feels that the few times people have agreed with him are necessary to have in his signature. :-)

Specific situation? No. My psu overheated and shut down when the fan in it died. Great ventilation around it, but without airflow, would heat up. Coolermaster psu.

Worked better when i strapped a fan to it.

 

No incoming airflow, no working psu. I believe I've proven my point.

 

Sorry tick, i tryd reading through first, but was getting fustrated by WOT's. Lol

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kb/s is a realistic benchmark of actual download speed in that I'm truly downloading so many kilobytes every second - which will equate to megabytes, and eventually gigabytes and terabytes. Those same numbers are used for my storage drives and every file size in the world. So I can do the math in my head to figure out how long a download will take when seeing file size. I know which file sizes will fit on my hard drives and which won't. This system makes sense and is easy for me to understand, because it all ties together. In the old days, a 7 GB modem told me that it was capable of transferring 7 GB of data over an hour. That's simple for me to understand and again, it all ties together. Obviously modems are much faster now, but that was an example from a decade ago.

 

I can't do the same with Mbps, as it's not an accurate way of telling me how much actual data I'm downloading per second, per minute, or per hour. Can anyone honestly say that they can translate Mbps into actual download time with various file sizes in their head? To do the math I need a calculator (maybe I'm special that way). I have to convert Mbps to bytes and then back to kbs, in order to understand how much data is actually being transferred and at what speed.

 

So laugh all you want. Using Mbps for a measurement of data transfer speeds is nothing more than a complicated system of doing what browsers, modems, and ISPs have done for years simply - in my humble opinion. :-)

 

Here's some help for those who don't understand, or would like to learn more about Mbps:

 

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-mbps.htm

On a side note, you can't work out how fast a file will download based on your connection speed... ever.

 

If you have an 8Mbit connection, it doesn't include any overheads at all. It's the absolute peak data that can be transferred.

This is almost exactly the opposite to having a protocol that allows speed-up of data transfer by compression or something similar such as rsync.

 

In effect the overheads equate to more data that must be communicated (that aren't part of the data you are downloading).

On top of which, the quality of the CDN you are downloading from will have a massive impact on the speed you can download a file 8MBit or not.

After all, how many ADSL2 users who can theoretically transfer much higher than 1MBps get that speed routinely? Maybe when the CDN has files cached locally or within your ISP.

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But as consolation to you, we've retired our computer businesses and I won't be posting here much anymore. Rest in peace! :-)

Don't forget this comment, so I doubt he will reply. I have my own theory as to the fate of his computer business. ;)

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ok how about a bit of common sense something this thread seems to have been short on

 

psu fan facing down in a case with a very small or no gap in the bottom will reduce airflow to the psu and increase its temps making its fan spin faster and create more noise than it would with clearer access to air

the pc will often work fine as the fan will still create some air turbulence and air can still move via convection in and out the rear of the psu keeping a psu cool enough if it is efficient and overkill for the intended pc's power requirements but may shorten the life of the psu depending on its environment and how much load its under

high quality psu are made to operate with a air temp of 50c when at 100% load and many of the corsair\seasonic psu can handle higher than there rated load

a ~650w corsair ax\seasonic x would probably be able to keep running a 2500k gtx680 system even if its fan died as the system under load would be drawing much less than half what the psu can handle

 

having the psu fan facing down even in a case with air vents in the bottom may not be good if it has small feat and is sat on soft carpet or the case has no bottom dust filter or the dust filter is never cleaned so I would only use it if the owner understood this

the optimal way to build a system with a bottom mounted psu is normally with it facing up as there isnt any down sides assuming it doesn’t have something internal blocking the psu fan when facing up

 

as for positive pressure and such

for some reason most cases by default have negative pressure but its not strong enough to adversely affect a psu fan in a significant way

 

negative pressure down sides

dust comes in threw every gap negating the benefit of fan filters assuming the case has any

with a psu that has its fan off when its not under much load will mean that the slightly warm air from the psu will be pulled into the case regardless of what way up its mounted

fans trying to exhaust air from the case psu\gpu will have to work a tiny amount harder to move the same amount of air but most cases have so many gaps the pressure difference is unlikely to make a noticeable difference

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