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atillo

Let's all play nice (men only)

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Tell me MR straight white male - do sticks and stones break your bones and not dull your enjoyment of a past-time too?

I can see why constant harassment would become tiresome and ruin gaming for women, but my question wasn't meant to get you into a fit of rage, it was a genuine question. I didn't know the issue was that prevalent.

 

 

Sorry, I'll stay out of the discussion now as I clearly have no idea what the online community is like on whatever game it is you are playing.

 

 

Heh. Don't worry Unco. You haven't seen me in a fit of rage yet. ;)

 

Maybe I was a little harsh, but I was trying to make a point. And it's your opinions in this that are the norm, so staying out of the discussion isn't a good thing. :)

 

Why are they the norm - because of exactly what Hawkeye said - it's a matter of perspective. Gender inequality as with sexual inequality is something that hurts those who are part of the unequal community. People don't see this as a problem, much as they don't see the word "gay" as a problem. It's accepted, commonplace and effectively invisible until pointed out.

 

I guess my question to you is - do YOU see The Sims as the "soft option" of gaming? Or not really gaming at all? Just because a woman spends 30 hours per week on WOW is she a "hardcore gamer"? Does she become one if she spends a few hours shooting things? Can you see an inequality there or not?

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Wow, smart smart man... :D

Except, I did miss the bit he quoted above, so... I'm standing next to him again.

 

Thing is, if anyone asks the question 'is this a thing' politely, they should be able to expect a polite response. And, I mean, you're not jumping down Elven's throat, and she stands pretty much in the same position as Unco. So, yeah - I think you might be being a touch too aggressive there, when all the dude was doing was asking a question.

 

After all, isn't that what we want of people? To question stuff, to want to be more informed about what's happening around them?

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Tell me MR straight white male - do sticks and stones break your bones and not dull your enjoyment of a past-time too?

I can see why constant harassment would become tiresome and ruin gaming for women, but my question wasn't meant to get you into a fit of rage, it was a genuine question. I didn't know the issue was that prevalent.

 

 

Sorry, I'll stay out of the discussion now as I clearly have no idea what the online community is like on whatever game it is you are playing.

 

 

Heh. Don't worry Unco. You haven't seen me in a fit of rage yet. ;)

 

Maybe I was a little harsh, but I was trying to make a point. And it's your opinions in this that are the norm, so staying out of the discussion isn't a good thing. :)

 

Why are they the norm - because of exactly what Hawkeye said - it's a matter of perspective. Gender inequality as with sexual inequality is something that hurts those who are part of the unequal community. People don't see this as a problem, much as they don't see the word "gay" as a problem. It's accepted, commonplace and effectively invisible until pointed out.

 

I guess my question to you is - do YOU see The Sims as the "soft option" of gaming? Or not really gaming at all? Just because a woman spends 30 hours per week on WOW is she a "hardcore gamer"? Does she become one if she spends a few hours shooting things? Can you see an inequality there or not?

 

I definitely see the inequality there, and the question "what makes a gamer?" is complex (well, it is to me anyway). I like to think of a gamer as someone who plays games in their spare time, but I'm also inconsistent in my definition. I still don;t consider someone who exclusively plays Bejeweled to be a gamer, they are bored and only have access to a laptop or mobile phone. A "real" gamer owns a console, PC or some other device designed to play games on, and enjoy playing different games. That's the way I think of it anyway, it's likely wrong, but well, what are you doing to do about it :P?

 

As for if I treat a female I talk to online while playing a game any different to a male? No, I don't. Being a guy I occasionally have thoughts to myself like "she has an attractive voice' or something along those lines, but I never comment on it unless she seems like the kind of person who will not take offence to that (usually after a couple of times playing together or a few hours). As mentioned, it;s how I met my girlfriend of 5 years, playing WoW and talking over VOIP. I never flirted or talked to her in the kind of way that would be considered "forward" until weeks after first meeting her online. I think a lot of the boys commenting online and harassing women are taking the "pull her hair to show her how much you like her" approach.

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the "pull her hair to show her how much you like her" approach.

Oh, now you've got my hackles rising :-p Taunt me in-game as much as you want, boy, but pulling my hair? Nuh-uh!

And omg why oh why do boys do this?? I have waist-length hair and I've had boys pulling my hair since primary school! And they don't grow out of it, either, because my Mister at home still does it occasionally. Boys are weird.

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the "pull her hair to show her how much you like her" approach.

Oh, now you've got my hackles rising :-p Taunt me in-game as much as you want, boy, but pulling my hair? Nuh-uh!

And omg why oh why do boys do this?? I have waist-length hair and I've had boys pulling my hair since primary school! And they don't grow out of it, either, because my Mister at home still does it occasionally. Boys are weird.

 

In my case if I did pull hair it would be a jealousy thing as I always wanted long straight hair, but all I get if I let it grow is a large bird nest lol.

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OK, I forgot to check back last night so now I have to respond to a page and a half at once ...

 

As has been pointed out I can't help to redress the gender imbalance in Atomic myself as I am myself in possession of a penis. While clearly not malicious I do find the assumption that anyone wanting some regular female representation in the magazine must themselves be a woman to be symptomatic of the boys club problem.

 

I am aware of the previous female writers for Atomic, that probably makes me more aware of their absence now. I don't think they were ever token females, even when they wrote specifically about the female gaming perspective, so I'm disappointed that some commenters here believe that any new female writer would be. However, if the good female gaming writers are too busy on new media to want to work on a dead tree publication I can't blame them and I certainly can't blame Atomic for not hiring a poor quality writer who would simply enforce the stereotype. I'm just surprised that's the case.

 

SquallStrife, just to be pedantic, it's not a ratio when one side is zero.

 

I don't know of any statistically sound studies on harassment in games and any individual items cited can always be discounted as outliers and unusual and the usual false equivalencies applied. Nevertheless, here are a few to chew on. None of these are just women being abused as would anyone be who wanders into certain public servers. These are all about abuse in terms specifically related to their gender.

 

http://www.notinthekitchenanymore.com/p/wh...s-about_27.html

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2012/02...munity-back.ars - this one is particularly bad given that it happens at a professional tournament from the leader of her own team

http://fatuglyorslutty.com/category/sandwich-making-101/ - these are hilariously stupid when you are reading them by choice, I imagine they become more than a little wearing when you just want to play

http://kotaku.com/5782957/im-an-anonymous-woman-gamer

 

I'd keep going but I already feel a need for a shower.

 

Unco_tomato "the majority of female gamers play on a console or portable device" as an argument against there representation in Atomic? Lord save me from "real gamers".

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Sorry, I really REALLY disagree that most women play on consoles.

 

The reason you don't see them on servers is because of what they cop when it becomes known they are female.

 

The kinds of games I'm talking about are the ones that are in the "male genre". Battlefield, CS, COD etc. Manly gun games. Games overrun by testosterone laden adrenalin.

 

Sure, women in WOW are accepted. Women in some games are reasonably commonplace. Just not when boys are playing with what they consider to be THEIR toys. And men continue to see these games as the "soft option".

 

They aren't REAL gamers.

So?

 

Sigh, that sounds harsher than it's meant to be. I can''t even quite put into words what my argument is, but basically: I disagree with your assessment, because I haven't seen it. This is just as valid as you drawing rather large conclusions about attitudes and behaviours based on your anecdotal experience.

 

Again, fuck, that sounds harsher than it's supposed to. I have major issues with sweeping statements like this:

 

The reason you don't see them on servers is because of what they cop when it becomes known they are female.

As there is nothing to back that up with apart from yours and my limited experience. Fuck, I have a female friend who "proves" that statement wrong. That doesn't mean I can make a generalisation though..

 

I dont know where I'm going with this, my thoughts are muddled.

 

 

I think a lot of the boys commenting online and harassing women are taking the "pull her hair to show her how much you like her" approach

Nah, most of them are just dicks, especially in testosterone laden games. It's "boys being boys", and even though that's not "right" when taken to an extreme (and disrespect is an extreme, in my opinion)... it's also what happens. Stamp your feet as much as you want, you're not going to get the 15-year-old dickhead on the COD server to respect women any time soon: he has no clue right now. The 28-year-old that chases a chick off a server? He's just a maladjusted idiot. Vocal minority. Majority of male gamers won't act like this in my experience, so don't lump me in with the dicks (word choice intended) that do.

 

Coming from a straight, white, upper middle class male. My opinion is invalid.

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Ya know, I'm just not seeing this as being as widespread as the whole 'gay' thing.

 

Sure it is an issue, I've been online gaming for nearly 10 years, with some of the worst communities available and while I have seen guys harassing women (I've never felt the urge to do it myself, its something I'll never understand) in games, its not as common.

 

The funny thing is, in competitive online games like WOW or CSS or something like that, more people cop abuse for being average/poor at the game than what girls cop for being girls, because I see this everywhere and far more frequently than women being picked on.

 

I'd really love to know which games you have been playing Chaos.

 

I should point out that I am in no way saying that you're wrong and that it doesn't happen, I just personally don't see it all that often, just out of curiosity, which online games do you find more females in? I ask this because I have played more online games over the years than most people and I very rarely see them.

 

One game I played online that did have heaps of females was NWN, on a roleplaying server, but they never copped abuse. Although that may have been more to do with the mature mindset that most people who role play seem to exhibit.

Edited by NukeJockey

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I don't know of any statistically sound studies on harassment in games and any individual items cited can always be discounted as outliers and unusual and the usual false equivalencies applied. Nevertheless, here are a few to chew on. None of these are just women being abused as would anyone be who wanders into certain public servers. These are all about abuse in terms specifically related to their gender.

 

http://www.notinthekitchenanymore.com/p/wh...s-about_27.html

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2012/02...munity-back.ars - this one is particularly bad given that it happens at a professional tournament from the leader of her own team

http://fatuglyorslutty.com/category/sandwich-making-101/ - these are hilariously stupid when you are reading them by choice, I imagine they become more than a little wearing when you just want to play

http://kotaku.com/5782957/im-an-anonymous-woman-gamer

 

I'd keep going but I already feel a need for a shower.

 

Unco_tomato "the majority of female gamers play on a console or portable device" as an argument against there representation in Atomic? Lord save me from "real gamers".

 

While I know it's wikipedia, the figures themselves are backed up in other places (I need some time to do some digging). Some of them are a few years out of date now, but I know the figures are actually higher now than they were then.

 

According to a survey done in 2004 by the Entertainment Software Association, 25 percent of console players and 39 percent of PC game players are women. Also, 40 percent of online game players are women; however, these numbers also include casual games.[20] According to another study conducted by the Entertainment Software Association in 2010, 40% of the game playing population is female, and women 18 or older now comprise 33% of all gamers.

Also, the percentage of women now playing online has risen to 42%, up several percent since 2004. The same study shows that 46% of game purchasers are female (Entertainment Software Association).[21] In recognition of the importance of the issues of women and girls as game developers and players, the International Game Developers Association, an association of companies and individuals in the games industry, has formed a special interest group on Women in Game Development.[22] This is an active field of discussion and a topic in many conferences in the video gaming industry.[1][2]

^ Merripen, Clarinda. "Increasing The Bottom Line: Women's Market Share." Game Developer. 01 Feb 2005. 16. eLibrary. ProQuest LLC. ART INSTITUTE OF SEATTLE. 11 Nov 2009. .'>http://elibrary.bigchalk.com>.

^ 2010 Sales, Demographic and Usage Data: Essential Facts About the Computer and Video Game Industry, Entertainment Software Association, 2010, retrieved 2011-01-10

^ IGDA Women in Games Special Interest Group. International Game Developers Association. Accessed 18 February 2012.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_Essen..._Facts_2010.PDF

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/lifetime-ga...ctronic-games-1

 

 

Edit: Girvo, it's not just my own anecdotal evidence either. A really quick simple google search will turn up sites dedicated to women games and women only servers and instances of harassment online.

Edited by Chaos.Lady

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Wow, smart smart man... :D

Except, I did miss the bit he quoted above, so... I'm standing next to him again.

 

Thing is, if anyone asks the question 'is this a thing' politely, they should be able to expect a polite response. And, I mean, you're not jumping down Elven's throat, and she stands pretty much in the same position as Unco. So, yeah - I think you might be being a touch too aggressive there, when all the dude was doing was asking a question.

 

After all, isn't that what we want of people? To question stuff, to want to be more informed about what's happening around them?

 

Sorry Hawkeye, I was trying to be "pointedly aggressive" rather than just randomly so. I probably should have used an extra smiley... :)

 

It seems that Unco has understood me though. It really doesn't take much to be made to feel as though you shouldn't be somewhere or be doing something if there is already a bias against it. Here it took 4 little words. Mr Straight White Male. After that, it suddenly seemed too aggressive.

 

Yet none of those words shouldn't be said in polite company. Shouldn't even be said together and in that order.

 

It doesn't take much to make someone feel uncomfortable. Unco was saying that perhaps girls were overly concerned with their feelings. It took 4 words to show that it's very easy to hurt feelings, and enough to drive someone without self confidence away. And ruin the enjoyment.

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I grew up as the tomboy daughter of an electrician and as such, I grew up learning how to tinker with electronics.

Marry me...?

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I grew up as the tomboy daughter of an electrician and as such, I grew up learning how to tinker with electronics.

Marry me...?

 

Best offer I've had all day!

/moves to Dubai

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Wow, smart smart man... :D

Except, I did miss the bit he quoted above, so... I'm standing next to him again.

 

Thing is, if anyone asks the question 'is this a thing' politely, they should be able to expect a polite response. And, I mean, you're not jumping down Elven's throat, and she stands pretty much in the same position as Unco. So, yeah - I think you might be being a touch too aggressive there, when all the dude was doing was asking a question.

 

After all, isn't that what we want of people? To question stuff, to want to be more informed about what's happening around them?

 

Sorry Hawkeye, I was trying to be "pointedly aggressive" rather than just randomly so. I probably should have used an extra smiley... :)

 

It seems that Unco has understood me though. It really doesn't take much to be made to feel as though you shouldn't be somewhere or be doing something if there is already a bias against it. Here it took 4 little words. Mr Straight White Male. After that, it suddenly seemed too aggressive.

 

Yet none of those words shouldn't be said in polite company. Shouldn't even be said together and in that order.

 

It doesn't take much to make someone feel uncomfortable. Unco was saying that perhaps girls were overly concerned with their feelings. It took 4 words to show that it's very easy to hurt feelings, and enough to drive someone without self confidence away. And ruin the enjoyment.

 

My feelings weren't hurt, as I am a "Mr. Straight white male", I just took it as it was intended. You were basically saying "sorry Mr. poor downtrodden average Joe, what struggles and prejudice have you ever had to deal with in your life?" And you're right, I've had very few struggles and a rather privileged upbringing. I don't have low self esteem, if anything it can be too high at times and I can come off as overly cocky or upfront. I was merely suggesting I leave the discussion (and lurk) as I clearly wasn't aware of the depth this problem runs though the gaming community.

 

No need to feel bad or apologise, I can understand why emotions are involved in a topic like this (especially if you're a female gamer).

 

@ Cyber, that video was pretty funny.

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I get the feeling I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't in your eyes there, atillo :)

 

But I'll also add that we have published an article by the woman who compiles Fat, Ugly or Slutty. I'll leave it at this; sure, we don't have regular female writers, but that's not be design. When we do publish articles by women, that, also, is not by design. Rather, I commission the right person for the job, or take on articles based on their merit, not on the gender of the writer.

 

Not sure what else I can do.

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And alienate the pro-meat lobby?! I'm alienating enough people as it is!

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Also don't forget that the aliens want us to represent them properly in the magazine, we have far too much human content in the mag.

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If a game has a system in place for private messages to be sent, then don't be surprised if you don't see some of the more vindictive abuse and stalking aimed at female gamers.

 

I am aware of the previous female writers for Atomic, that probably makes me more aware of their absence now. I don't think they were ever token females, even when they wrote specifically about the female gaming perspective, so I'm disappointed that some commenters here believe that any new female writer would be.

I guess I should address this since I explicitly brought up tokenism. I don't think the female writers have ever been particularly token. But I do think that the suggestions of hiring a female writer no matter what to 'even the scales', whether they're a good game/tech writer or just a female IT writer, sounds tokenistic. Edited by Nich...

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On the issue of what females cop in gaming. I was in a game of BF3 a few weeks back. It was brought to every ones attention, that one particular player was a girl/woman.

 

The amount of filthy, fucked up, bile and venom that ensued in chat, blew me right over. Almost word for word type stuff, of the video a few posts back.

 

I was so mad. I couldn't play on the server any more. Called the whole server dumb cunts, and quit.

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Yeah, I've seen similar shit in a number of games myself, notably FPS games. You almost never get it in MMOs, though.

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That sort of behavior must be fairly rare though? I've never seen sexist comments or banter engulf an entire server before! I guess all one can do for the mean time if find servers that are frequented by more mature players. Obviously it's not the correct solution to the problem, as female players should not have to spend hours trying to find a good server of mature players, but it's an unfortunate truth in some games it seems (according to the above).

 

Maybe Atomic should host some servers? BF3 seems to be on the decline though, I had a server on launch, but it remained empty majority of the time as it wasn't a 24/7 Metro server.

 

Good point about the Genre differences though David, that is pretty much my observation too. Though I've never seen an entire server react the way Katalyst describes.

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