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elvenwhore

hoes before bros?

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Unco: You'd be surprised. My bro-in-law = vegetarian. And it's amazing the amount of foods you can eat which are 'vegetarian' but support meat. Thus, meal = cooked, then in seperate pan a small amount of beef is added and cooked up and then meal is served and the meat is mixed in with those who want it. Think Thai Beef Salad style thing.

 

You can get away with a lot more than you think.

 

A fantastic vegetarian dish with a nicely marinaded steak cooked seperately? Why not?

 

I am a fussy eater, but not too bad. I've REALLY expanded on my range of food. Now it's down to things like "Egg" (Ingredient = FINE! By itself? I can't get past the texture. It makes me gag). "Mushroom". Visit a mushroom farm as a 5 yr old and suffer the psychological damage of it being grown in poo. I can't even get it to my mouth.

 

However, I have eaten mushroom and not realized it. I've enjoyed it. I know this. But I can't bring myself to eat it from childhood trauma. So just remember that people when raising your kids to eat. A childhood trauma may not seem much at the time, but it can last forever.

 

The only other food I don't eat is seafood. But that's because I'm fond of breathing. (Yup. Allergy) I *love* taste of seafood. I developed the allergy in my teenage years. Before that, I'd chow through bags of prawns and have fish whenever we went out. Loved tasting all the different types of fish. No more... :(

 

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I have heard of some vegians not even sitting at the same table as a Meat Eater saying" its like raping a women when you put that fork in your meat". i usually reply is that why you have no kids.

 

But i enjoy both worlds but i do prefer meat ,and chicken dishes. Fish i am not really into that much ,maybe eat a fish finger . Last time i ate prawns was on the Manly Corso took me ages to peel the damn thing so i gave up.

 

If you wanna be vegian then you need to understand its not a religion and you do not try and force it on anyone. I like the vegie pasta dishes they are yummy.

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I have heard of some vegians not even sitting at the same table as a Meat Eater saying" its like raping a women when you put that fork in your meat". i usually reply is that why you have no kids.

You have worked out a reply to something that you have heard may have been said so you are ready if anyone says it to you?

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As to the topic, you do not sound selfish to me

You have made a choice and you live according to your beliefs without forcing them onto others

 

Slightly off topic

I am taking more of an interest in additives and colors used in food and have found it interesting where these come from

Are additives and colors something you have to watch out for, or do your choices of food mean that that you do not consume additives anyway?

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The biggest trick to improving the way vegan/vegetarians are viewed would be to tackle the misconception that vegetarian food is bland. Most people (the general pop.) have had bland experiences with 'vegetarian' food and hence the idea of eating nothing but it scares them to the point of ridiculing those that do. Salads for example. I die a little inside every time I go to a BBQ and see a bowl of lettuce, tomato and raw fucking onion. The common meat and three veg, too; plain peas & corn and mashed potato was my family's staple. Save the best bit for last? Meat wins every single time because I damn well didn't want the last thing in my mouth to be raw onion of mushy peas.

 

If more families took the effort to spice up the vegetarian side of their meals then I think we would see a lot more servings of veg on kids plates, a lot more willingness for people to try new vegetarian food and be more accepting to those that limit themselves to it. FTR: I'd label myself at 25% vegetarian, in that 1 in 4 of my meals would specifically be made vegetarian. While I take great pleasure in eating meat and will happily spend 72 hours cooking it until its just the way I want it, I also just happen to think that there are far too many great vegetarian dishes out there to ignore.

 

Tonight: A red bean and chickpea curry with home made Naan bread.

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We (Fenn and I) still cook many dishes from Kurma (Cooking With Kurma fame)

http://www.kurma.net/

 

We even had him visit for Fenns birthday and do a cooking course with us. Vegetarian (Not Vegan) food.

 

Best Kofta I have ever had..

Paneer cheese made in the kitchen.

 

All sorts of noms.

 

Indian has some of the best vegetarian dishes in my opinion.

 

But I just still love my meats. Ultimate = awesome meat with great vegetarian side-dish.. Get the best of both sides.

 

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In fact.. Here's his blog post about the cooking lesson..

 

http://www.iskcon.net.au/kurma/2010/12/06#a8346

 

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Kids need to learn to develop their pallets, otherwise they end up like the sort of adult you're talking about.

I'll say amen to that. My mum fed me a whole mess of different things growing up, and it's what made me such and adventurous eater / drinker today. I have some kids who only ate cheeseburgers, chicken nuggets and Hawaiian pizza growing up, and have a very similar diet still in their adult lives. If they order a chicken burger they will ask for lettuce as the only salad, and if they order Chinese for take away (there is a good place near my house) they will simply get a fried rice or Honey Chicken. Nothing wrong with it as long as their happy I guess, just boring as hell. Wash that down with a XXXX Summer.

 

Meanwhile, I'll be sitting next to them with a 40-chilli curry, sweating it out with a 16% Triple IPA in hand.

 

My girlfriend isn't a strict Vegetarian, but she just has an organised diet. She only eats red meat once a week, fish once a week, chicken once a week and the rest is vegetarian. I imagine this will be the way I will eat when we move in with each other next year, and if we do end up having kids in the future I imagine they will eat adventurously with us, or be hungry.

 

Funny, my parents were of the meat and three veg variety. I got a kitchen hand job in a gourmet kitchen when I was 18 and was introduced to so many new flavours. Still, my parents wouldn't pander and would force us to eat things we didn't like at first taste. I remember hating cheese once upon a time, my parents persisted and I discovered it was one of my fave things a few years later.

 

My afformentioned cousin never ate any veges and was pandered too. He still only eats meat, and boring steak, chicken, sausages with little seasoning. I guess he's happy with it, but it's hardly healthy., and besides he misses out on so many experiences, both culinary and social. As I said, I never invite him to dinner parties, though I've had most of my other cousins round. You create a bond with other adventurous eaters that I don't think boring eaters ever experience. Also adventurous eaters are far more likely to be good cooks, and there is nothing more attractive.

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Yotam Ottolenghi's books are fun. I have but have you to get around to messing around with the new Nobu Vegetarian--I meant to check it out during the holidays but wound up spending basically every day working from David Chang's book.

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It could be argued that a vegan/vegetarian diet is a more "morally" evolved choice in it's recognition of the suffering of other animals.

But why would they be made of meat if they're not meant to be eaten? :confused:

 

I'm a dedicated meat eater. Can't describe myself as carnivorous because I do eat vegies when the wife serves them up, but red meat is where it's at for me. I get serious cravings if I go more than a week without a good steak or some chunky chops.

 

To the OP - no I don't believe that veganism / vegetarianism is a selfish choice of itself, any more than an omnivorous diet is a selfish choice. I think that any diet can become selfish though if you start to impose your choices on others. My wife hates mushrooms with a vengeance but still buys them for me and adds them to my half of a salad. She's non-selfish by not imposing her mushroom loathing on me, and I'm non-selfish by cooking them myself if I want them hot. Simplified example but it'll do.

 

In a social setting, if I visited a vegetarian / vegan's place then I would expect to eat what they eat, because as an omnivore a vegetarian / vegan meal is still perfectly acceptable to my culinary boundaries. If they visited my place then I would make an effort to prepare dishes that they could enjoy at least part of, but would still have meat there on the side for everyone else. If they wanted a specific vegan-delish dish then they'd be more than welcome to bring or prep it themselves, unless it was in a more intimate setting of 2-3 couples in which case I'd probably go the extra yard.

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If you wanna be vegian then you need to understand its not a religion and you do not try and force it on anyone.

Damn straight. There isn't some invisible made up figure in the clouds telling you to not eat all the things that Jesus made.

 

 

'

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Always wondered about the morally superior argument.

 

I'll ask my dogs (Carnivores): WOOF.. <- Translation: We were made to be carnivores. Evolution you know.

 

So.. Dogs, cats, snakes and many other critters are 'immoral' because they were MADE to be carnivores. Got it.

 

Omnivores were made to eat all sorts of things. Monkeys (Although many monkeys err on side of carnivore. Bugs and grubs you know) are a good example.

 

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Eat what you want, and I'll eat what I want.

 

Omni here. Not outrageously adventurous, but for the first time in my life I'm eating and enjoying olives ( not the stuffed kind though, they're still majorly yukki ).

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I have heard of some vegians not even sitting at the same table as a Meat Eater saying" its like raping a women when you put that fork in your meat". i usually reply is that why you have no kids.

You have worked out a reply to something that you have heard may have been said so you are ready if anyone says it to you?

 

One of my sister's mates is vegan, and has been for over a decade. Even now, she'll refuse to eat food that has been cut with/on a knife/board that has also been used for meat - unless it has been washed. This is after she's been relaxing for a decade; you should have seen her when she first switched. <shudder>

 

Apart from being food neurotic, she's a great gal.

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Always wondered about the morally superior argument.

 

I'll ask my dogs (Carnivores): WOOF.. <- Translation: We were made to be carnivores. Evolution you know.

 

So.. Dogs, cats, snakes and many other critters are 'immoral' because they were MADE to be carnivores. Got it.

 

Omnivores were made to eat all sorts of things. Monkeys (Although many monkeys err on side of carnivore. Bugs and grubs you know) are a good example.

 

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Evolution got us here, no one denies that ;). The moral argument stems from what we do from now. Other animals have no choice. We do. Unlike any other animal, we can willingly remove animal products from our diet and replace them with plant based equivalents, supplemented with vitamins if needed. The morally superior argument comes from choosing the option of least harm to other animals and to the environment.

 

Personally, I think there are other aspects of our behavior that could do with tweaking first, and other methods to address this problem when its needed.

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This link written by an ex vegan of twenty years . I tend to agree re his thoughts on the destructiveness of agriculture and his views on intensive animal farming.

http://lierrekeith.com/vegmyth.htm

 

... I have to say though, I'm an omnivore for no moralistic reasoning, I simply like a bit of red and white meat combined with a colourful array of veg. And I like my muesli with yoghurt, and I love my grainy bread !

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Once you make the switch to vegetarianism or veganism, making the exception to eat meat on occasion can make you quite ill on those occasions. No decent host would expect their guest to make themselves sick. Besides, now that those diets are so commonplace, and other specialty diets are commonplace and awareness of food allergies and intolerance is increasing, people tend to take all those options into account when planning group meals. So I don't think it is being fussy for the sake of it nor should one feel like they are imposing on the host. So I don't see that situations where being vegan would be a selfish imposition on others being too common any more.

 

Sap, I can't believe there are adults who are that ridiculously fussy, and the onus is on the guest to eat what's served if it's not something they are allergic/intolerant of or if it conflicts with particular diets. Juvenile is not a diet.

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hehe.

 

I can easily cater for vegetarian. Don't think I can easily do vegan ( I think I said it once before ).

 

I find things like cream, cheese, milk, eggs etc too much of a staple in my cooking.

 

Further, I'm not willing to check whether animals were used/exploited or whatever you want to call it in the production of said food.

 

As for moral choice.. I still don't buy into it. We are omnivores. We evolved to eat meat and veg as it were. It's just now that we realize they can suffer pain, so we end it quickly, unlike a kill from a big cat or whatever. In fact, we also will typically use 100% of the animal in our kill. (Admittedly, the animals do this too. It's why scavengers exist)

 

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Sap, I can't believe there are adults who are that ridiculously fussy, and the onus is on the guest to eat what's served if it's not something they are allergic/intolerant of or if it conflicts with particular diets. Juvenile is not a diet.

I envy your optimism, I haven't seen examples quite that extreme but I did use to share a house with a bloke that doesn't eat any vegetables that aren't potatos. He will seriously sit down for a roast meal and eat the meat gravy, spuds and yorkshire pudding and leave the rest. Seen him live on meat pies and bacon sandwhiches for a month.

 

Juvenile might not be a diet but it's certainly a state of mind for some adults.

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To illustrate my point, here are some recipes I just stumbled across. http://www.thekitchn.com/the-most-difficul...eed-them-169102

 

Sap, I can't believe there are adults who are that ridiculously fussy, and the onus is on the guest to eat what's served if it's not something they are allergic/intolerant of or if it conflicts with particular diets. Juvenile is not a diet.

I envy your optimism, I haven't seen examples quite that extreme but I did use to share a house with a bloke that doesn't eat any vegetables that aren't potatos. He will seriously sit down for a roast meal and eat the meat gravy, spuds and yorkshire pudding and leave the rest. Seen him live on meat pies and bacon sandwhiches for a month.

 

Juvenile might not be a diet but it's certainly a state of mind for some adults.

 

Heh, that was how I ate roast meals... when I was ten years old. :P I used to have a housemate who ate like that pretty much daily (except for when he ate bacon or microwave lasagne), but I put it down to him being too lazy to cook. Never cooked for him so I don't know if he'd be so rude as to turn down vegetables that were served to him.

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The act of sharing food goes beyond culinary technique and timing - it can be layered in superstitions, conventions, expectations, insecurities and judgements. Even the most laid-back non-foodie, who may think they are immune due to their disinterest, can be subjected to projections.

 

The concept of "selfishness" is probably similarly layered. On the one hand, very strictly speaking, as ReapermanRS said earlier, making a personal choice is pretty much the definition of selfish. However, that's looking at it very strictly but it also, in an odd way, levels the playing field because, again as ReapermanRS pointed out, we all make personal choices about our bodies, every day.

 

Once you make the switch to vegetarianism or veganism, making the exception to eat meat on occasion can make you quite ill on those occasions.

hmmm, that's a good point, and one that I'd forgotten about because it's been a while since I encountered it.

 

I believe it is impossible to be 100% vegan. You can just do the best you can.

I agree with that - as you mentioned, where does one draw the line, because you can extend the concept of 'harm' or 'animal by-product' a very long way and pretty soon, living any kind of a reasonable and normal life becomes impossible.

 

Slightly off topic

I am taking more of an interest in additives and colors used in food and have found it interesting where these come from

Are additives and colors something you have to watch out for, or do your choices of food mean that that you do not consume additives anyway?

Well, personally I've always been interested in reading labels, which is something that goes back to my studying food technology in high school, but I do it because I like to be very aware of what's in the food I'm eating. If something hsa 4 different types of sugars in it, I want to know about it so I can make an informed choice (do I need 4 types of sugars in my snack?). Similarly, if something has additive E441 in it (gelatine, which is derived from animal sources) then I want to know about it so I can make an informed choice. I'm a label geek :-) Grocery shopping with me must be such a pain :-p (insert inevitable joke about how doing anything with me would involve pain :-p )

 

I don't tend to eat a lot of processed foods, which means I don't get overly exposed to additives and colours anyway. I like to make my own versions of things, too, which means I can control what goes in. I do that not strictly to avoid animal products, but also because making things from scratch tends to afford me a freedom to avoid a lot of those additives and numbers.

 

gah, the more I talk, the more lame I sound! :-)

 

Thanks to those who posted links, but, well, it's kinda like leaving out a pile of rice for a Chinese vampire to count! I have to check them all out, now :-p I love reading about food, vegan or not (inspiration can come from anywhere, after all) :-)

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The act of sharing food goes beyond culinary technique and timing - it can be layered in superstitions, conventions, expectations, insecurities and judgements. Even the most laid-back non-foodie, who may think they are immune due to their disinterest, can be subjected to projections.

 

The concept of "selfishness" is probably similarly layered. On the one hand, very strictly speaking, as ReapermanRS said earlier, making a personal choice is pretty much the definition of selfish. However, that's looking at it very strictly but it also, in an odd way, levels the playing field because, again as ReapermanRS pointed out, we all make personal choices about our bodies, every day.

This reminds me of something Anthony Bourdain has sometimes mentioned. For TV and all, he travels a whole lot. He and his film crew sit with people, many of whom have very little, and eat. The food might be basic--some fish these villages have caught, some boiled root vegetables, some small birds they've caught with a homemade trap--but these people are being geneous. They may not eat meat all that often. And Bourdain argues that to be in that situation and to reject the food saying, oh, no, I'm a vegetarian, is the same as saying these people and what they have to offer is shit. Not good enough for me and my precious western ways.

 

I'm not saying I agree with that. At least not 100%. But I'm not disagreeing with it. I'm not well-travelled, but I have been in the situation where people who don't eat a hell of a lot of meat for financial reasons have killed and butchered a goat essentially for my benefit. To reject that, to say oh no, I prefer--as I'm not vegetarian, so I'm groping around for some sort of comparable diet issue--my meat to be all organic, or to come in a shrink-wrapped foam tray at the supermarket, to be cruelty-free rather than slaughtered with a blunt utility knife, to be dry-aged, to be ... not some old goat ... that'd be rude. The height of rudeness. It would, as Bourdain puts it, be me, the tourist, just rejecting these people and their generosity.

 

Is that, kind of, to some extent, what you're getting at with your fear of being seen as selfish? I don't think, if you were coming to one of my dinners, telling me ahead that oh, you're vegetarian, is selfish in the same way as that. In fact, for all manner of reasons, it's very different. I wouldn't care. I'd maybe even make you a plate of porcini risotto, just because. I couldn't imagine my girlfriend's cousins in the rural areas taking it well, tho'. I doubt anyone would say anything, but you can bet they'd be offended. Does that make you selfish in that situation? I don't know if that's quite the right word. I guess you can again draw a comparison with vegetarians and people who keep fairly strict kosher or halal diets finding themselves in a situation like that where people have, oh, killed a pig/boar/caught some shellfish. I guess maybe anyone in that situation, a fairly wealthy person as a guest of people with, by middle class western standards, fuck all, has to play a sort of balancing act, juggling on one hand their sensibilities, preferences and beliefs about food (whether it's 'I don't eat animals' or 'I'm really bothered by flies') and the simple reality that saying 'no' will deeply offend people on a level that's very different and much deeper than any western dinner party host could possibly get offended.

Edited by Saponification

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The concept of "selfishness" is probably similarly layered. On the one hand, very strictly speaking, as ReapermanRS said earlier, making a personal choice is pretty much the definition of selfish. However, that's looking at it very strictly but it also, in an odd way, levels the playing field because, again as ReapermanRS pointed out, we all make personal choices about our bodies, every day.

I like it when my name is said in bold :)

 

The act of sharing food goes beyond culinary technique and timing - it can be layered in superstitions, conventions, expectations, insecurities and judgements. Even the most laid-back non-foodie, who may think they are immune due to their disinterest, can be subjected to projections.

 

The concept of "selfishness" is probably similarly layered. On the one hand, very strictly speaking, as ReapermanRS said earlier, making a personal choice is pretty much the definition of selfish. However, that's looking at it very strictly but it also, in an odd way, levels the playing field because, again as ReapermanRS pointed out, we all make personal choices about our bodies, every day.

This reminds me of something Anthony Bourdain has sometimes mentioned. For TV and all, he travels a whole lot. He and his film crew sit with people, many of whom have very little, and eat. The food might be basic--some fish these villages have caught, some boiled root vegetables, some small birds they've caught with a homemade trap--but these people are being geneous. They may not eat meat all that often. And Bourdain argues that to be in that situation and to reject the food saying, oh, no, I'm a vegetarian, is the same as saying these people and what they have to offer is shit. Not good enough for me and my precious western ways.

 

I'm not saying I agree with that. At least not 100%. But I'm not disagreeing with it. I'm not well-travelled, but I have been in the situation where people who don't eat a hell of a lot of meat for financial reasons have killed and butchered a goat essentially for my benefit. To reject that, to say oh no, I prefer--as I'm not vegetarian, so I'm groping around for some sort of comparable diet issue--my meat to be all organic, or to come in a shrink-wrapped foam tray at the supermarket, to be cruelty-free rather than slaughtered with a blunt utility knife, to be dry-aged, to be ... not some old goat ... that'd be rude. The height of rudeness. It would, as Bourdain puts it, be me, the tourist, just rejecting these people and their generosity.

 

Is that, kind of, to some extent, what you're getting at with your fear of being seen as selfish? I don't think, if you were coming to one of my dinners, telling me ahead that oh, you're vegetarian, is selfish in the same way as that. In fact, for all manner of reasons, it's very different. I wouldn't care. I'd maybe even make you a plate of porcini risotto, just because. I couldn't imagine my girlfriend's cousins in the rural areas taking it well, tho'. I doubt anyone would say anything, but you can bet they'd be offended. Does that make you selfish in that situation? I don't know if that's quite the right word. I guess you can again draw a comparison with vegetarians and people who keep fairly strict kosher or halal diets finding themselves in a situation like that where people have, oh, killed a pig/boar/caught some shellfish. I guess maybe anyone in that situation, a fairly wealthy person as a guest of people with, by middle class western standards, fuck all, has to play a sort of balancing act, juggling on one hand their sensibilities, preferences and beliefs about food (whether it's 'I don't eat animals' or 'I'm really bothered by flies') and the simple reality that saying 'no' will deeply offend people on a level that's very different and much deeper than any western dinner party host could possibly get offended.

 

I see where you are coming from and I think in that situation I would probably eat the meal even if it was against my diet. Not sure about Kosher and Halal though as im not Jewish or Muslim. I suppose a language barrier would make it insanely difficult to get the point across too.

 

p.s Going trolling for links later, just for you elvenwhore

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