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Nuke: Where is the benefit to Telstra providing a naked line? Financially?

 

They have to install equipment to use their own lines?

 

They'd be better off saving that money and offering lower rates.

 

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The benefit is to the consumer in not needing to pay $30 line rental for a phone that many wouldn't use.

 

Theres obviously something I'm missing here, if smaller companies can offer unlimited cap, high speed ADSL2+ plans without the need for line rental, why can't a company as large as telsuck?

 

Feel free to set me straight, at the moment I'm just a biased telstra hater, help me see clearly.

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---

 

Back to the NBN, and aliali's whirlpool threads...

 

Has anyone ever actually considered that the cross-section of Atomicans and Whirlpoolians just might not represent Australia?

 

Out in the real world (which we define as the time not spent staring at a screen), people really really really don't worry about Internet speed. Certainly, my small business (sub-50 seats) clients aren't - they're doctors, lawyers, manufacturers, recruitment agents, media, event management companies.

 

For some reason, to them the NBN is not important. Even the cost of an ADSL2+ connection doesn't bother them. They don't care that we have expensive net speeds compared to other OECD countries or that we're ranked 21st out of the first-world countries....

 

To them, they need the Internet to send/receive emails, browse sites and download small PDF and Word files sent to them by suppliers. That's the reality for the super-majority of businesses in Australia, even in metro areas.

 

We're on a computing site. Whirlpool is a telco/computing site. We're not representative.

 

And what seems necessary to us, is actually our wants.

 

In fact, I bet that not a single person here, can explain why they need a 100Mbps connection for any serious reason.

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In fact, I bet that not a single person here, can explain why they need a 100Mbps connection for any serious reason.

I see your point, and raise you pr0n.

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Leo:

Has anyone ever actually considered that the cross-section of Atomicans and Whirlpoolians just might not represent Australia?

 

So should I vote for the person next door to represent MY views? Is that what Democracy is about? Hang on.. This is a TECH site. Geee... I wonder why the majority SUPPORT an NBN. Go to a mothers site if you want an alternative view. Seriously. Fuck my neighbour metaphorically speaking. I'm voting for ME. Why? Because *I'M AUSTRALIAN* and this is what I want. Why is MY view invalid even if it doesn't comply with the backwaters?

 

So.. The people that don't need internet speed? THEY can vote against it.. This is what democracy is about isn't it? If we start voting for our next door neighbours, well fuck knows what they think I want. For all I know, they may think I support One Nation.

 

If *YOU* are voting because of what *YOU* think some guy in the bush wants, then you are stupid. Really.. Really really stupid. Vote for yourself. This is democracy. We praise it. We want it. PROVE IT!

 

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Lateline - Opposition spokesman for Communications, Malcolm Turnbull, says the Coalition's broadband plan would provide adequate speeds and would be much faster to build.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3572973.htm

What's the bet they'll try to shunt people into overpriced 4G Internets?

 

This is the key paragraph from that interview:

[There will be plenty of fibre going to the locations that need it, but for the bulk of the addresses in Australia, the premises in Australia, which are residential customers, the very high speeds that are ... that fibre to the premises can deliver are far in excess of what residential users either need, let alone will pay for.]

 

While I can appreciate that fast internet can be of benefit to some businesses, I find the notion that every home must have a Fibre connection, absolutely bonkers.

 

People simply do not use the Internet the way we do.

 

Hell, I work in IT. I own my own company. My two datacentres are linked with 20Mbps Dark Fibre. I just downgraded the links at both datacentres to the net to 20Mbps Fibre with a 35Mbps burst because I do not need the 100Mbps speeds I had earlier. 20Mbps easily supports my 250-350 concurrent Citrix connections, thousands of incoming emails and internet browsing.

 

Not one of my customers has complained about Internet speed (though they do complain about that damned squid proxy...)

 

All this stuff means that I download a fair whack more than what an average user downloads - especially sine I do a lot of testing on my VMs at home. I'm happy to show anyone my TPG downloads. I'm also happy to show my parents' download quotas. And my grandparents'. And my brother's girlfriends' parents.

 

Not a one of them would clear 10GB a month. not because they can't. They're all on ADSL2+, but because they don't need to or want to.

 

The NBN is not a necessity. Nor does the market seem to be heading to fixed-line comms.

 

Leo:

Has anyone ever actually considered that the cross-section of Atomicans and Whirlpoolians just might not represent Australia?

 

So should I vote for the person next door to represent MY views? Is that what Democracy is about? Hang on.. This is a TECH site. Geee... I wonder why the majority SUPPORT an NBN. Go to a mothers site if you want an alternative view. Seriously. Fuck my neighbour metaphorically speaking. I'm voting for ME. Why? Because *I'M AUSTRALIAN* and this is what I want. Why is MY view invalid even if it doesn't comply with the backwaters?

 

So.. The people that don't need internet speed? THEY can vote against it.. This is what democracy is about isn't it? If we start voting for our next door neighbours, well fuck knows what they think I want. For all I know, they may think I support One Nation.

 

If *YOU* are voting because of what *YOU* think some guy in the bush wants, then you are stupid. Really.. Really really stupid. Vote for yourself. This is democracy. We praise it. We want it. PROVE IT!

 

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This is true. However you're saying the NBN is a necessity.

 

It's not.

 

It's what you want.

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And? It's what *I* define as a necessity because I can see beyond 2 yrs. And what I WANT is also 100% valid for democracy. That's what democracy is about.

 

And at the end of the day, neither party has anything else viable to offer beyond "Jools sucks" and "Abbott is a Right Wing Extremist". At least NBN is a clear policy.

 

Labor: Incompetents in charge.

Liberal: Incapables wanting to be in charge.

 

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This is where I think all the pro-NBN people get confused.

 

The Coalition are not trying to provide a better technical solution than Labor. They are trying to operate like a good economic manager and fusing technology with business and social aspects.

 

Remember that every dollar spent on this NBN comes from either our taxes or money we'll have to pay back to China. This NBN is not free. It costs a lot of money - something like $3800 per connection just on the official underestimated figures.

 

And it's not like we couldn't use $40b elsewhere, right? So the Coalition are trying to make the case that Fibre is great, but your average user simply does not need it, and neither do most businesses - however of those business that would benefit from it, most would be in metro areas, as would their employees.

 

Now, I know that there are plenty of people on Atomic who are intelligent enough to see this: technology isn't the only thing you've got to think about when you manage a country, just like it's not the only thing you've got to think about when you manage a company. You've also got to balance your books, provide health care, deal with rioting teachers, put more cops on the street, work out where to shove illegal arrivals, etc... and all of these things have to be concurrent, and all effect each other.

 

And? It's what *I* define as a necessity because I can see beyond 2 yrs. And what I WANT is also 100% valid for democracy. That's what democracy is about.

A "necessity" is something you have to have, something you can't do without.

 

At least NBN is a clear policy.

Yes. So was WorkChoices.

 

:)

 

The observatory here in Canberra (Mt Stromlo) did a scan of the night sky.

 

The data from it was massive. To the point that it tied up data from the observatory ALL day, EVERY day. Why? So we could share it!

 

There was nothing else the observatory could do during these periods. Even EMAIL lagged. (Source: Sis in law who worked up there during all this).

 

How can you think that science is at an optimum when this shit is going on? Really!

I didn't answer this. Sorry.

 

Mt Stromlo is part of ANU. It has a direct fibre feed. Almost every single one of Australia's uni-connected facilities is fibre connected.

 

You'll find in most cases it's the actual storage I/O that's the limit in research data dumps, not the point-to-point bandwidth.

 

That's my experience anyway....

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Yup.. Work Choices was clear.. And I was worse off for it. Why? Because I am lousy at negotiation an individual contract. Why should I, as a data professional have to learn sales skills (Selling myself)? Shouldn't my ability speak for itself? Should I have the ability to have some professional 'salesman' speak on my behalf? Work choices was LOUSY for the trade sector. I don't know a single apprentice that's just about to complete their apprenticeship that has the ability to negotiate themselves a decent wage. And I wonder why we have a skills shortage. *I* left the trade as a late 20 yr old because of Work Choice. I, as an individual, couldn't negotiate better than a multi-national company who had lawyers at its disposal. Fuck that shit.

 

As for necessity. You bet it is. I am tech and science focused. I feel that this will be the super-charger for Australian Science and Technology. I've been watching Canberra crumble as a High Tech capital. We used to be the IT leader of Australia. The High Tech leader. We did advanced radar research. We did advance LASER (capitals because it's an acronym) research. That's all faded to piss in bath water.

 

We *NEED* something to kickstart us again. I believe this is the thing we need. The reminder that "We're still alive". Here's the bandwidth, now put the data out there boys (I gave Mt Stromlo as an example earlier). We have SO much more to offer. And we are toddling along twiddling our thumbs. Neither Liberal nor Labor address this properly. We are in a technology and science stagnation period. At least the NBN is a technology advance.

 

Now.. Consider this.. Here is why it's critical to me. Why it's a NECESSITY! I am a TRADE QUALIFIED DATA COMMUNICATIONS TECHNICIAN! Read that last part again. Data... Communication. Technician... They are talking about a method to increade Data Communication around Australia. Can you PLEASE tell me how that DOES *NOT* benefit ME!

 

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Yup.. Work Choices was clear.. And I was worse off for it. Why? Because I am lousy at negotiation an individual contract. Why should I, as a data professional have to learn sales skills (Selling myself)? Shouldn't my ability speak for itself? Should I have the ability to have some professional 'salesman' speak on my behalf? Work choices was LOUSY for the trade sector. I don't know a single apprentice that's just about to complete their apprenticeship that has the ability to negotiate themselves a decent wage. And I wonder why we have a skills shortage. *I* left the trade as a late 20 yr old because of Work Choice. I, as an individual, couldn't negotiate better than a multi-national company who had lawyers at its disposal. Fuck that shit.

 

As for necessity. You bet it is. I am tech and science focused. I feel that this will be the super-charger for Australian Science and Technology. I've been watching Canberra crumble as a High Tech capital. We used to be the IT leader of Australia. The High Tech leader. We did advanced radar research. We did advance LASER (capitals because it's an acronym) research. That's all faded to piss in bath water.

 

We *NEED* something to kickstart us again. I believe this is the thing we need. The reminder that "We're still alive". Here's the bandwidth, now put the data out there boys (I gave Mt Stromlo as an example earlier). We have SO much more to offer. And we are toddling along twiddling our thumbs. Neither Liberal nor Labor address this properly. We are in a technology and science stagnation period. At least the NBN is a technology advance.

 

Now.. Consider this.. Here is why it's critical to me. Why it's a NECESSITY! I am a TRADE QUALIFIED DATA COMMUNICATIONS TECHNICIAN! Read that last part again. Data... Communication. Technician... They are talking about a method to increade Data Communication around Australia. Can you PLEASE tell me how that DOES *NOT* benefit ME!

 

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It'll benefit you. But you. An live and function without it.

 

A necessity is something you can't live or function without. Everything else is a want.

 

As a small business owner and contractor I loved workchoices and AWAs. I hope a coalition government will bring some IR changes of that sort :)

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How is me having the potential to earn more money NOT a necessity?

 

So.. For me NBN. I can offer my services as a professional with *recognized* endorsements in RF, Satellite, Fibre, Coaxial and Twisted Pair.

 

YOU as a business owner can use workchoices and AWAs. (Which don't benefit me.) I appreciate that THEY benfit you more.

 

But for me. NBN! And if it benefits me, then it means I'm earning more money which is more money being paid in taxes which benefits Australia.

 

It's not overly convoluted.

 

If the majority of Australia benefits from the NBN, then more taxes are being paid, which means Australia benefits.

 

This is why I argue "Vote Selfishly". Whatever benefits you best, obviously means that more of your money is going to Australia. The more Australians that do this, the more money that flows to Tax and therefore Australia.

 

NBN = Best bet for me, and through me Australia.

 

AWA = Worst bet for me, thus worse for Australia THROUGH ME!

 

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Ammendment: If more Austrlians vote AGAINST NBN, then obviously it implies that they don't believe there is benefit to themselves as individuals, and as such, less tax for Australia, so on and so forth.

 

 

DEMOCRACY BABY!

 

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:)

 

Actual bandwidth requirements to the home are a very moot point - myself and my family just gave my mother an iPad, as the easiest thing for an 81 year old who doesn't know computers to use, she loves it.

 

I kicked in an old but good Linksys router, ADSL only, and if she bundles her home line and emergency mobile with the Telstra base-plan (getting her off Telstra is a waste of breath) it will cost her very little. All she will use it for is email and browsing her crochet and recipe sites but it keeps her happy. 5GB, even counting up and down packets? She'll never use it, me, that's perhaps four or five days worth.

 

The NBN has a number of reasons for being good for Australia although it will certainly take time, should have begun years ago, would have if some people in pre-privatised Telstra had had their way. The major reason though is that the CAN is falling apart of sheer old age, sooner or later it has to go and might as well be replaced by inexpensive glass and drive down the cost of active fibre equipment through increased demand.

 

Every time it rains here I get a reminder - perhaps 20 years or more ago some Telco genius put our closest pit across the street, which happens to be at the bottom of a shallow hill with limited drainage. Every time it floods I get flaky comms until it dries out.

 

I don't think anyone needs to worry too much about having to vote for Abbot or Guilard somehow - if Australian politics runs true to form we will see spills and new leaders before long, bright shiny ones without baggage :)

 

Cheers

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Too hard to pick between douche and giant turd, they are both bad choices.

Edited by p0is0n

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It is hard.. But do what I do...

 

"Who will benefit ME more".. Seriously.. Ask that question of yourself... Vote as such.

 

Both leaders are twits.. If Turnbull took over Liberal, it'd be a different matter. I don't like Turnbull, but I respect him..

 

But think of it like this. If you donkey vote, would a donkey benefit you?

 

Which one will give YOU more benefit. $'s in pocket? Quality of life? Better roads to work? Better hospitals if you think you'll need them? Homeloan?

 

Vote for you, and you alone.

 

The choice gets easier then.

 

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How is me having the potential to earn more money NOT a necessity?

I'll forward Gina Rinehart that argument.

 

She should use that for an exclusive economic zone and termination of carbon taxes and royalties :)

 

Now what's her email again... ginar@fuckthepeasants.com?

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It is hard.. But do what I do...

 

"Who will benefit ME more".. Seriously.. Ask that question of yourself... Vote as such.

 

Both leaders are twits.. If Turnbull took over Liberal, it'd be a different matter. I don't like Turnbull, but I respect him..

 

But think of it like this. If you donkey vote, would a donkey benefit you?

 

Which one will give YOU more benefit. $'s in pocket? Quality of life? Better roads to work? Better hospitals if you think you'll need them? Homeloan?

 

Vote for you, and you alone.

 

The choice gets easier then.

 

AD

Sure. Just don't assume that your wants are necessities in the general version of te term which is how you seemed to use it originally.

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Vote for you, and you alone.

 

The choice gets easier then.

 

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Good point, I rarely pay enough attention to even know who is in charge or what their plan is. I just get my name ticket off so I don't get fined.

Will do some reading much much closer to election time.

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Dude.. Double standards...

 

Me wanting to earn more money through NBN and being able to apply my skills doesn't equal YOU with Liberal and their Work Choices benefits for you as a business owner?

 

How is this not a necessity?

 

That's how I read it..

 

Because YOU can earn more money by work choices, it's GOTTA be right and more important than MY ability to earn money through exploiting MY knowledge of data if NBN goes through.

 

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Now what's her email again... ginar@fuckthepeasants.com?

Please.

 

 

She would at least cough up for a .com.au

 

As a small business owner and contractor I loved workchoices and AWAs. I hope a coalition government will bring some IR changes of that sort :)

"Oh, you need to pick your daughter up from school at 3? Well I need you to be scraping the grill at 3. Work 3PM-12AM TONIGHT, or don't bother showing up tomorrow. I don't care that the 17 year old fresh hire has volunteered to take that shift, I want you to do it, because I enjoy fucking people, and Tony Abbott says that's OK. What? It's 2:30 now? Better leave home now."

 

Yeah, it suits you.

 

Edit: Yes, I'm being facetious.

 

But I do worry about the Coalition's seeming disregard for people that can only do unskilled work. The last thing I want to have to deal with is a disgruntled underclass, that might riot (ala London) and ruin my day.

Edited by SquallStrife

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Guest MrInsaneBuff

The Liberals fucked themselves with me as soon as they put Tony Abbott into a position where he could make policy decisions. Im sorry but as soon as you put someone completly bat shit insane into a position where they affect the nation you lose any and all support i may have had for any and al of your idea's. Maybe he doesn't fuck a horse but Abbott is just as insane as Caligula.

 

Also he has single handedly dragged political debate in this country into the sewer and doggedly spreads false accusations against his political rivals under the " If you say something enough people will eventually believe it" doctrine. He has also failed at any point thus far to show he understands the word Compromise. He isn't interested in building a better Australia, he is interested in returning his party to the leadership with himself as PM. Nothing else.

 

NOPE Liberals are dead to me. Labour arn't all that far behind because they have played his game and haven't called him on his bullshit.

 

It's saying something when the most sane party out there at the moment are the Greens. The same party who support people sitting up trees for months on end, and for near pirate like activity on the high sea's.

 

Honestly I don't think Australian Politics has been this bad since... Ever.

Edited by MrInsaneBuff

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Add to that Tony Abbott, and I seriously don't see how they are a viable party for the next election. This is the same Tony Abbott, that lead the entire RU486 schmozzle, and then when he lost control of that, publicly backed off but told the private sector not to even bother trying to get it registered for use. If he's leading, them they aren't viable, as far as I'm concerned, he's not a fit leader and a party that wants to delay (yet again) any action on climate is pathetic. Look at any review of their "direct action" plan on climate, and you'll see that it's "no action" on climate.

I would just like to point out that RU486 came onto the market on the 30th of August this year because no drug company ever applied to register RU486.

 

What Tony Abbott did 6 years ago, is only of limited value because even though RU486 got approved in a conscience vote, it still wouldn't have appeared on the Australian market for 6 years.

 

Good, I'm sure the then health ministers comments in private to companies looking to get it registered had no impact!

 

Even aside from that, it's simply indicative of his attitude, an attitude that has followed him in every political role from his student activist days, making his universities student union unworkable to undermine it from the elected position of president, to his actions as health minister. All he's demonstrated is that what Tony Abbot wants is most important, and fuck anyone he's supposed to be helping or representing.

 

Leonid: Are you seriously telling me you think he's the best Liberal candidate to lead them as an effective and representative government?

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The Liberals fucked themselves with me as soon as they put Tony Abbott into a position where he could make policy decisions. Im sorry but as soon as you put someone completly bat shit insane into a position where they affect the nation you lose any and all support i may have had for any and al of your idea's. Maybe he doesn't fuck a horse but Abbott is just as insane as Caligula.

 

Also he has single handedly dragged political debate in this country into the sewer and doggedly spreads false accusations against his political rivals under the " If you say something enough people will eventually believe it" doctrine. He has also failed at any point thus far to show he understands the word Compromise. He isn't interested in building a better Australia, he is interested in returning his party to the leadership with himself as PM. Nothing else.

 

NOPE Liberals are dead to me. Labour arn't all that far behind because they have played his game and haven't called him on his bullshit.

 

It's saying something when the most sane party out there at the moment are the Greens. The same party who support people sitting up trees for months on end, and for near pirate like activity on the high sea's.

 

Honestly I don't think Australian Politics has been this bad since... Ever.

^ Pretty much this. Edited by wingnut0021

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Leo: You don't think 100MB connections will have any benefit for the thousands and thousands of small businesses the Liberal party likes to base it's radical IR law changes on?

You know how many small businesses I've gone and helped out with their IT, that could have used offsite backup? Also, fuck the actual speed, the NBN means you aren't stuck on a 5% up, 95% down skew.

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Guest xyzzy frobozz

I see your point, would you think that Labor is a viable option then? given these reasons, or just a slightly more viable?

Based on his track record as health minister, Abbott considers being voted into power to be about representing his personal views.

He demonstrated that as health minister, his personal views are the most important things to him, and trump any duty of care he may have to the entire public of Australia (half of which are women).

Much as I dislike Julia and Kevin, to me they don't embody the myopic psychopathy of Abbott.

 

If Abbott would treat my vote for the Liberal party, as a vote for his personal views, then it's worse than me failing to vote.

He's leading the Liberal party because he was better at the small-target opposition game than Turnbull, who is far more of a doer and thinker than Abbott. Turnbull talked alternatives to Labor's policy, Abbott is preventing any serious discussion, because he doesn't want to be criticised for his views, which are impossible if you don't explain them.

 

I personally think that going into the election, the Liberals under Abbott are going to face so much flack that they won't win, and we end up with Labor by default.

I'd much rather a healthy, viable Liberal party.

 

So my point isn't that Labor is good, it's just that for me, they don't have massive deal-breakers. At least (in a way) they've demonstrated that they can (for better or worse) act on public sentiment. If you want to look charitably at Rudd's dumping.

 

Crosspost, +1 and all that agreement stuff.

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Good, I'm sure the then health ministers comments in private to companies looking to get it registered had no impact!

Because he's been health minister for the last 6 years... oh wait...

 

Leonid: Are you seriously telling me you think he's the best Liberal candidate to lead them as an effective and representative government?

Now? Yes.

 

Ever? No.

 

Leo: You don't think 100MB connections will have any benefit for the thousands and thousands of small businesses the Liberal party likes to base it's radical IR law changes on?

You know how many small businesses I've gone and helped out with their IT, that could have used offsite backup? Also, fuck the actual speed, the NBN means you aren't stuck on a 5% up, 95% down skew.

And how are you going to do this offsite backup? To what?

 

You can't send data unencrypted over the net. You need VPNs for that. On top of that, how are you going to send the data? To an FTP site? How much will that cost? How do you recover from an FTP site?

 

Small businesses want to do a great many things. They can't afford them. That's why clouds exist - they get the benefits of enterprise architectures, without the costs. Including offsite backup.

 

Dude.. Double standards...

 

Me wanting to earn more money through NBN and being able to apply my skills doesn't equal YOU with Liberal and their Work Choices benefits for you as a business owner?

 

How is this not a necessity?

 

That's how I read it..

 

Because YOU can earn more money by work choices, it's GOTTA be right and more important than MY ability to earn money through exploiting MY knowledge of data if NBN goes through.

 

AD

No. You got it the wrong way mate.

 

I don't need workchoices lite. I'd like it, it'd make my business run better (as would cancellation of all taxes). I just want workchoices lite.

 

The point is things that are necessary are things you can't survive without. Or things you can't function without.

 

The NBN is not a a necessity. We've been fine without it and we'll be fine without it.

 

It's a nice-to-have benefit.

 

Now what's her email again... ginar@fuckthepeasants.com?

Please.

 

 

She would at least cough up for a .com.au

 

As a small business owner and contractor I loved workchoices and AWAs. I hope a coalition government will bring some IR changes of that sort :)

"Oh, you need to pick your daughter up from school at 3? Well I need you to be scraping the grill at 3. Work 3PM-12AM TONIGHT, or don't bother showing up tomorrow. I don't care that the 17 year old fresh hire has volunteered to take that shift, I want you to do it, because I enjoy fucking people, and Tony Abbott says that's OK. What? It's 2:30 now? Better leave home now."

 

Yeah, it suits you.

 

Edit: Yes, I'm being facetious.

 

But I do worry about the Coalition's seeming disregard for people that can only do unskilled work. The last thing I want to have to deal with is a disgruntled underclass, that might riot (ala London) and ruin my day.

 

http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy...0905-25ear.html

 

:(

 

We can argue all we want about how bad employers will screw bad employees. There is a reality here though: our IR is inflexible, taxation is ineffective and we're massively over-regulated.

 

And in the 21st Century there are still sectors of our economy where two consenting adults aren't allowed to work out a workplace agreement without a union official present!

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