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Leo: You don't think 100MB connections will have any benefit for the thousands and thousands of small businesses the Liberal party likes to base it's radical IR law changes on?

You know how many small businesses I've gone and helped out with their IT, that could have used offsite backup? Also, fuck the actual speed, the NBN means you aren't stuck on a 5% up, 95% down skew.

And how are you going to do this offsite backup? To what?

 

You can't send data unencrypted over the net. You need VPNs for that. On top of that, how are you going to send the data? To an FTP site? How much will that cost? How do you recover from an FTP site?

 

Small businesses want to do a great many things. They can't afford them. That's why clouds exist - they get the benefits of enterprise architectures, without the costs. Including offsite backup.

 

You are kidding right? You think that a VPN is the only option to send data encrypted over the net? Aside from all the proprietary solutions, you can simply tunnel the fucking data.

FTP? Good grief, I thought you worked in IT?

 

iinet for instance has quite a usable product, called online vault which encrypts the data, and gives the user a simple summary of what they need to back up.

Even if it was FTP, the point isn't that it's easy to recover, it's that you have a copy of something to recover. You know how many small businesses have gone under because of a fire and the resulting data loss?

 

The cloud? Why the fuck do you need that, and how does it prevent you needing upload bandwidth?

 

I have a question. If a company is running bonded ADSL2, and producing two and a half gigabytes of not terribly compressible data that should be backed up each day, how long will it take to "catch up"?

Whether you rsync -z, and so are copying a compressed diff, or use a cloud solution that does something similar you need bandwidth.

 

And whether your copy target is a cloud based elastic storage, a private CDN, or a hosted cheapie you need that bandwidth to get the data there. Lots of small businesses will get someone in to help them set this stuff up, if their options are only ADSL2 or wireless, then in many cases offsite online based backup isn't an option, and you rely on the small businesses backing up manually, instead of a few cron scripts that fire off in the middle of the night.

 

I'm not raising these issues to argue or quibble, I'm raising them because I think they are an important selling point for businesses. Outside of IT sector and big business good internet prices out many small and medium sized businesses.

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We can argue all we want about how bad employers will screw bad employees.

That's what you got from that? Asking he/she to take on a 9-hour shift with a half-hour's notice, with a threat of termination, is (and should be) illegal, regardless of how stellar or awful the employee is.

 

There is a reality here though: our IR is inflexible, taxation is ineffective and we're massively over-regulated.

I agree. I'm just sayin' that traditional "Fuck the labourers, fucking worthless scum" Liberal values aren't any good either. I bet a room full of smart people could find a half-way point where everybody wins, and we get to be competitive while continuing to enjoy our (relative) lack of a working underclass.

 

Sure India and China are "more competitive" than Australia, but they're also shitholes.

 

And in the 21st Century there are still sectors of our economy where two consenting adults aren't allowed to work out a workplace agreement without a union official present!

I agree that is an issue.

 

But I also think that it's rightly a crime to sack somebody in relation to their union membership/non-membership/action. Again, the everybody-wins solution is somewhere in the middle.

Edited by SquallStrife

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Outside of IT sector and big business good internet prices out many small and medium sized businesses.

my internet will be more expensive under the NBN for the same bandwidth, so 'good internet prices' are in the eye of the beholder. The NBN is great for those who don't have access to high speed broadband today. But, based on the estimates put out by NBN Co, better prices may not be part of that.

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Outside of IT sector and big business good internet prices out many small and medium sized businesses.

my internet will be more expensive under the NBN for the same bandwidth, so 'good internet prices' are in the eye of the beholder. The NBN is great for those who don't have access to high speed broadband today. But, based on the estimates put out by NBN Co, better prices may not be part of that.

 

I'm not familiar with your internet or the comparison you are making.

I'm pointing out that in a small/medium business context, NBN rollout will give them access to better than ADSL2, and ADSL2 upload speeds are handicapping small businesses.

 

I'm not saying that this justifies the NBN, but to suggest it's only benefit is for faster porn, and that there are no uses for 100Mb connections (or even better, to suggest there is no way to backup safely and economically within the reach of small/med business) is BS. That's my opinion.

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I'm not familiar with your internet or the comparison you are making.

I'm pointing out that in a small/medium business context, NBN rollout will give them access to better than ADSL2, and ADSL2 upload speeds are handicapping small businesses.

 

I'm not saying that this justifies the NBN, but to suggest it's only benefit is for faster porn, and that there are no uses for 100Mb connections (or even better, to suggest there is no way to backup safely and economically within the reach of small/med business) is BS. That's my opinion.

The point I was questioning was 'good Internet prices'.

 

I agree there are uses for 100MB connections - for a small percentage of Internet users.

 

As for backup, if 'context' systems are to become cloud based as is predicted, the requirement for fast upload speed for backup is diminished.

 

If the majority of my data is cloud based, there is no need for a big backup pipe.

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You are kidding right? You think that a VPN is the only option to send data encrypted over the net? Aside from all the proprietary solutions, you can simply tunnel the fucking data.

FTP? Good grief, I thought you worked in IT?

Do you know what the traditional difference is between a tunnel and a VPN?

 

They are identical, except that VPN encrypts the data at each end as well. The traditional concept is kind of lost now because of software such as OpenVPN. Also SSH tunnels can be VPNs if you route traffic through them, because they too encrypt data at both ends.

 

The lines are now very blurred.

 

iinet for instance has quite a usable product, called online vault which encrypts the data, and gives the user a simple summary of what they need to back up.

Even if it was FTP, the point isn't that it's easy to recover, it's that you have a copy of something to recover. You know how many small businesses have gone under because of a fire and the resulting data loss?

Can it recover email back into their exchange server? Data back into their SQL and Sharepoint?

 

No. It's just a data dump, good only for small flat files.

 

A: Online Vault is not for backing up data via network shares, installed programs, operating system files or data considered part of a "server" rather than a  personal computer (eg database files).

https://iihelp.iinet.net.au/node/4201

 

Online Vault has no VSS capability either. If that's what you use for backing up small business customers, I'm truly sorry for them, because you're not doing any backup worth a damn.

 

The cloud? Why the fuck do you need that, and how does it prevent you needing upload bandwidth?

Because the cloud removes the need to have your data on-site.

 

Leo: You don't think 100MB connections will have any benefit for the thousands and thousands of small businesses the Liberal party likes to base it's radical IR law changes on?

Nope. There'll be some (there are always some), but the vast majority won't get any real day-to-day benefit.

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The point I was questioning was 'good Internet prices'.

 

I agree there are uses for 100MB connections - for a small percentage of Internet users.

 

As for backup, if 'context' systems are to become cloud based as is predicted, the requirement for fast upload speed for backup is diminished.

 

If the majority of my data is cloud based, there is no need for a big backup pipe.

I haven't really looked at the price closely. I don't think I said prices would be "good" universally, just that it will give small/medium business access to usable speed without exorbitant prices. If you aren't an IT/internet based company, forking out $1500 pm for an internet connection is a hard sell, and it might be that you get "guaranteed" 8/8Mb. Depends on your area.

 

Cloud will have differing impacts on different businesses. The clients I'm talking about generating 2.5GB of data updates per day, don't have a cloud based solution. While the cloud can do a lot of things, it's not a magic bullet for bandwidth. In fact, the trade off is often responsiveness, isn't it? If all you want to back up is changes to word documents and excel documents, you don't need to use google docs or something to do it. You can set up an incremental backup easily.

 

If I shoot photos, scan documents, composite artwork, generate raster PDFs these can all generate a lot of traffic based depending on the scale.

The solutions are generally having faster upload to back this data up, or compressing it in a lossy method, right?

 

Do you know what the traditional difference is between a tunnel and a VPN?

 

They are identical, except that VPN encrypts the data at each end as well. The traditional concept is kind of lost now because of software such as OpenVPN. Also SSH tunnels can be VPNs if you route traffic through them, because they too encrypt data at both ends.

 

The lines are now very blurred.

The VPN was your point, designed to (I presume) assert that "it's a hassle" to encrypt data.

My point was that you don't need it built into network architecture, you can use an ad-hoc connection to do the same.

You've just supported my point, what was your point again?

 

 

Can it recover email back into their exchange server? Data back into their SQL and Sharepoint?

 

No. It's just a data dump, good only for small flat files.

 

A: Online Vault is not for backing up data via network shares, installed programs, operating system files or data considered part of a "server" rather than a  personal computer (eg database files).

https://iihelp.iinet.net.au/node/4201

 

Online Vault has no VSS capability either. If that's what you use for backing up small business customers, I'm truly sorry for them, because you're not doing any backup worth a damn.

 

Because the cloud removes the need to have your data on-site.

 

Nope. There'll be some (there are always some), but the vast majority won't get any real day-to-day benefit.

So here we get down to it, the NBN doesn't help with what YOU would apply it to.

I'm not suggesting you use vault to back up exchange server, SQL or Sharepoint, as they aren't products that I support or that clients I've worked with use. As you point out, exchange server is something that can easily be replaced by a cloud alternative. Likewise SQL is something that can be replaced by a cloud based alternative or if it's anything like the alternatives I've used, you can use replication to create a cheap dumb slave for RT backup. Of course, it depends on the usage case for the particular SQL database, and once again, the upload bandwidth, right? Sharepoint, once again is a perfect candidate to be entirely replaced by cloud alternatives. VSS? What is the purpose of your backups? I'm talking offsite net based backup for the case of total file loss, that way at least there are files accessible somewhere you can rebuild from. If you just want to isolate against a single-point catastrophic failure and reimage quickly then there's no reason you can't have a local backup/imaging system.

 

The vast majority won't get any real day-to-day benefit?

How about some extremely odd usage cases then:

 

Taking photos and backing them up offsite.

Taking scanned pdfs and backing them up offsite.

Using remote replication of a local data store, where latency to the primary db is critical (and therefore it can't be outsourced).

 

I know these are some crazy things that some businesses like to do.

But you are seriously suggesting that a small business on ADSL2 will do all the above fine? And not only that, but that these cases are rare?

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Enjoy your NBN after Labor slaps a big flawed Internet Filter onto it....

(which is what they will most certainly do once they can get a majority)

 

I'd rather stick with ADSL2 to be honest....

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The VPN was your point, designed to (I presume) assert that "it's a hassle" to encrypt data.

Nope.

 

My point was that you don't need it built into network architecture, you can use an ad-hoc connection to do the same.

You've just supported my point, what was your point again?

My point is that data tunnelling and VPN are so similar these days you don't even have to make a distinction - hence the hybrid term "VPN tunnel". Secondly, most online backup platforms cost money and do not support servers. The ones that do - like Microsoft's DPM, require specialised software at the customer end.

 

Which requires lots of money.

 

So here we get down to it, the NBN doesn't help with what YOU would apply it to.

You do realise the most common business software in Australia is Microsoft Small Business Server with Exchange? You're working with the minority of clients.

 

I'm not suggesting you use vault to back up exchange server, SQL or Sharepoint, as they aren't products that I support or that clients I've worked with use. As you point out, exchange server is something that can easily be replaced by a cloud alternative. Likewise SQL is something that can be replaced by a cloud based alternative or if it's anything like the alternatives I've used, you can use replication to create a cheap dumb slave for RT backup. Of course, it depends on the usage case for the particular SQL database, and once again, the upload bandwidth, right? Sharepoint, once again is a perfect candidate to be entirely replaced by cloud alternatives.

All of these can be replaced by the cloud without worrying about offsite backup.

 

VSS? What is the purpose of your backups? I'm talking offsite net based backup for the case of total file loss, that way at least there are files accessible somewhere you can rebuild from. If you just want to isolate against a single-point catastrophic failure and reimage quickly then there's no reason you can't have a local backup/imaging system.

If you don't use VSS, any open/locked files are not backed up.

 

The vast majority won't get any real day-to-day benefit?

How about some extremely odd usage cases then:

 

Taking photos and backing them up offsite.

USB disk/tape management company. Much safer.

 

Taking scanned pdfs and backing them up offsite.

We do that at the moment with clients who have scanners in-house with SMB dump capability. We use DFS-R, over 4Mbps SHDSL links. Sometimes Ethernet at 10Mbps.

 

Using remote replication of a local data store, where latency to the primary db is critical (and therefore it can't be outsourced).

What kind of datastore?

 

I know these are some crazy things that some businesses like to do.

But you are seriously suggesting that a small business on ADSL2 will do all the above fine? And not only that, but that these cases are rare?

Absolutely.

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I'd rather stick with ADSL2 to be honest....

Fine if you live somewhere with a choice of ISPs.

 

 

I know these are some crazy things that some businesses like to do.

But you are seriously suggesting that a small business on ADSL2 will do all the above fine? And not only that, but that these cases are rare?

Absolutely.

 

As long as you're within that 500m radius of the node, where it's worth bothering with xDSL.

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Just so that you're aware TB, I have a client in Foveaux St that take roughly 100-200 photos per day on their 14MP DSLR and drop it on a little server we built for them - it'. It's a 2008 R2 box, connected to our cloud via OpenVPN. It syncs data using DFS-R, up and down, so they've got a permanent copy of their data.

 

The primary link the company uses is some dodgy ISP's 24Mbps ADSL link though they sync at 14Mbps because of shit wiring. The replication happens over a second 4Mbps SHDSL link (with good wiring).

 

All good :)

 

As long as you're within that 500m radius of the node, where it's worth bothering with xDSL.

When I lived in Rosebery I was around 1.8km from the Exchange (no road-side RIM). Synced at 11-13Mbps.

 

Try not to over-exaggerate.

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The primary link the company uses is some dodgy ISP's 24Mbps ADSL link though they sync at 14Mbps because of shit wiring.

All the amazing wiring in the world can't overcome xDSL's kryptonite (i.e. Distance).

 

As long as you're within that 500m radius of the node, where it's worth bothering with xDSL.

When I lived in Rosebery I was around 1.8km from the Exchange (no road-side RIM). Synced at 11-13Mbps.

 

Try not to over-exaggerate.

 

11-13 is around half of what the technology can do. Unacceptable.

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All the amazing wiring in the world can't overcome xDSL's kryptonite (i.e. Distance).

True. Which is why there are other options.

 

Only in a few limited cases are there no options at all. And I fully support government intervention to get these people ADSL.

 

11-13 is around half of what the technology can do. Unacceptable.

Perfectly acceptable. That's exactly what the technology can do at distance.

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The problems with the Libs is that they lack policy.

 

They have no well though out plans other than topple the Labor leader by blocking and denying and rolling back any and all Labor policy.

 

Thats not the leadership this country needs. We need a modicum of co operation between parties.

 

Abbott is an embarrassment of a leader. He's the Mark Latham of the Liberal party. How can you have such a lead as the preferred party of a nation , but still not be anywhere near the leader that the people want?

 

Also the Liberal party needs to learn to put together a budget. Swan is finance superhero, while the Liberal budgets come up with 70 bil gaps in funding.

 

The Australian people aren't stupid. With such a long time to go before the next election , anything could happen, and an un-lose-able election could turn into a rout.

 

I'm a swing voter by the way, I think anyone who votes one way their whole lives is retarded.

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My point is that data tunnelling and VPN are so similar these days you don't even have to make a distinction - hence the hybrid term "VPN tunnel". Secondly, most online backup platforms cost money and do not support servers. The ones that do - like Microsoft's DPM, require specialised software at the customer end.

 

Which requires lots of money.

 

You do realise the most common business software in Australia is Microsoft Small Business Server with Exchange? You're working with the minority of clients.

 

All of these can be replaced by the cloud without worrying about offsite backup.

 

If you don't use VSS, any open/locked files are not backed up.

 

USB disk/tape management company. Much safer.

 

We do that at the moment with clients who have scanners in-house with SMB dump capability. We use DFS-R, over 4Mbps SHDSL links. Sometimes Ethernet at 10Mbps.

 

What kind of datastore?

 

Absolutely.

1. So, your assertion is that it can't be done within budget? Cool, i'll get the word out.

2. Is that just an assertion, or do you have something to back that up? Whether it's the most common isn't the question, is it the usage case in MOST small/medium businesses.

3. Which was my point, right? Which is why YOU selected those usage cases, not me.

4. On the assumption that: A- file locking poses a serious risk to the utility of the backups, B - you are using windows, C - it's not better to have a marginally imperfect backup process over no backup?

5. On the assumption that a business can spring for tape backup, and/or that you can get a reliable disk-swap backup happening in a small business. We were talking about small businesses, right?

6. Which assumes you can GET SHDSL, which was a point I made earlier?

7. It's irrelevent isn't it? May as well be .

 

It's obvious you are much more interested in "winning", so in your mind there is no usage case where 100Mbps is useful to a small business.

 

In my experience, small businesses will benefit. I'm not going to argue that my experience is universal, but to me it seems like there are a lot of small/medium businesses that aren't running SBS+E. To me it seems like there are a lot of small/medium businesses that have strange usage cases. The same reason that you can't shoehorn many small/medium businesses into a particular software-dictated workflow, because small and medium businesses are weird.

 

Just so that you're aware TB, I have a client in Foveaux St that take roughly 100-200 photos per day on their 14MP DSLR and drop it on a little server we built for them - it'. It's a 2008 R2 box, connected to our cloud via OpenVPN. It syncs data using DFS-R, up and down, so they've got a permanent copy of their data.

 

The primary link the company uses is some dodgy ISP's 24Mbps ADSL link though they sync at 14Mbps because of shit wiring. The replication happens over a second 4Mbps SHDSL link (with good wiring).

Hell, maybe it's a Sydney/Melbourne thing. Every time that a company really needs SHDSL, they seem to get told they can't have it here.

It could be related to melbourne's sprawl.

 

If so, maybe they should rescope the NBN, and cut Sydney out of it.

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I haven't really looked at the price closely. I don't think I said prices would be "good" universally, just that it will give small/medium business access to usable speed without exorbitant prices.

Based on what? I have to say my research into pricing hasn't been fantastic, but from what I have seen those who have high speed broadband today will be paying more. Those who don't will get access that they haven't had before. The question is, how many small businesses fit into the second category? If you have pricing information that shows the NBN will provide businesses with cheaper access than they have today then great. I haven't seen it, but I haven't spent a lot of time looking either.

Cloud will have differing impacts on different businesses. The clients I'm talking about generating 2.5GB of data updates per day, don't have a cloud based solution. While the cloud can do a lot of things, it's not a magic bullet for bandwidth. In fact, the trade off is often responsiveness, isn't it?

But, if their systems were cloud based then that 2.5GB would be generated in the cloud, not on premise (unless it is a private cloud). Cloud isn't designed to be a magic bullet for bandwidth as you say, but it negates the need for small/medium businesses to have super high bandwidth as long as their cloud provider does, and any one worth there salt does have.

 

To say that a tradeoff for cloud is responsiveness is a myth. It can be if that's what you paid for but just like on premise solutions you can choose the level of service you want. Also, unlike on premise solutions which are rigid in their infrastructure, cloud solutions if implemented correctly have the ability to burst and thus provide better responsiveness than any on premise solution.

If all you want to back up is changes to word documents and excel documents, you don't need to use google docs or something to do it. You can set up an incremental backup easily.

For this level of backup most businesses don't need 100MB...

If I shoot photos, scan documents, composite artwork, generate raster PDFs these can all generate a lot of traffic based depending on the scale.

The solutions are generally having faster upload to back this data up, or compressing it in a lossy method, right?

As previously mentioned, a cloud based solution can do all this an negates the need for on premise backup. it also has the advantage of being available wherever you plug into the internet. The backup solution we use at work for mobile workers like myself, it looks for changes in files and backs up those changes. This can take a minute or two. For a small to medium business this would work fine and wouldn't require 100MB.

 

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1. So, your assertion is that it can't be done within budget? Cool, i'll get the word out.

Everything can be done, but VPNs do generally cost money. What you suggested with Online Vault can barely be called backup.

 

2. Is that just an assertion, or do you have something to back that up? Whether it's the most common isn't the question, is it the usage case in MOST small/medium businesses.

It's an assertion based on several years of observation.

 

3. Which was my point, right? Which is why YOU selected those usage cases, not me.

4. On the assumption that: A- file locking poses a serious risk to the utility of the backups, B - you are using windows, C - it's not better to have a marginally imperfect backup process over no backup?

A &C are not assumptions. If you don't get all files at the time of backup, you don't have a complete backup.

 

If you're not using windows, you're already in the tiny minority of small businesses... begging the question of why an NBN for everyone?

 

5. On the assumption that a business can spring for tape backup, and/or that you can get a reliable disk-swap backup happening in a small business. We were talking about small businesses, right?

Single-unit tape drives cost very little.

 

Most small businesses we've migrated to our infrastructure had decent backup routines.

 

6. Which assumes you can GET SHDSL, which was a point I made earlier?

Most can get ADSL.

 

7. It's irrelevent isn't it? May as well be <insert database here>.

It's highly relevant. Different databases have different techniques. Other databases, such as MSSQL and MySQL have async replication functionality (Can be to remote sistes).

 

It's obvious you are much more interested in "winning", so in your mind there is no usage case where 100Mbps is useful to a small business.

I didn't say that. In fact I said the opposite.

 

I said that a tiny minority of small businesses will gain appreciable benefits. Most will not.

 

Hell, maybe it's a Sydney/Melbourne thing. Every time that a company really needs SHDSL, they seem to get told they can't have it here.

It could be related to melbourne's sprawl.

 

If so, maybe they should rescope the NBN, and cut Sydney out of it.

Where is "here"? Melbourne has SHDSL, definitely in all metro areas - we've never had trouble there.

 

Admittedly we have more Sydney-side businesses but a few in Mexico as well...

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6. Which assumes you can GET SHDSL, which was a point I made earlier?

Most can get ADSL.

 

Upload speeds on ADSL are what? A few hundred kpbs typical? One or two Mbps if you're lucky?

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6. Which assumes you can GET SHDSL, which was a point I made earlier?

Most can get ADSL.

 

Upload speeds on ADSL are what? A few hundred kpbs typical? One or two Mbps if you're lucky?

 

Yep. Plenty for small business whose uploading is typically confined to their email server sending emails.

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I haven't really looked at the price closely. I don't think I said prices would be "good" universally, just that it will give small/medium business access to usable speed without exorbitant prices.

Based on what? I have to say my research into pricing hasn't been fantastic, but from what I have seen those who have high speed broadband today will be paying more. Those who don't will get access that they haven't had before. The question is, how many small businesses fit into the second category? If you have pricing information that shows the NBN will provide businesses with cheaper access than they have today then great. I haven't seen it, but I haven't spent a lot of time looking either.

Cloud will have differing impacts on different businesses. The clients I'm talking about generating 2.5GB of data updates per day, don't have a cloud based solution. While the cloud can do a lot of things, it's not a magic bullet for bandwidth. In fact, the trade off is often responsiveness, isn't it?

But, if their systems were cloud based then that 2.5GB would be generated in the cloud, not on premise (unless it is a private cloud). Cloud isn't designed to be a magic bullet for bandwidth as you say, but it negates the need for small/medium businesses to have super high bandwidth as long as their cloud provider does, and any one worth there salt does have.

 

To say that a tradeoff for cloud is responsiveness is a myth. It can be if that's what you paid for but just like on premise solutions you can choose the level of service you want. Also, unlike on premise solutions which are rigid in their infrastructure, cloud solutions if implemented correctly have the ability to burst and thus provide better responsiveness than any on premise solution.

If all you want to back up is changes to word documents and excel documents, you don't need to use google docs or something to do it. You can set up an incremental backup easily.

For this level of backup most businesses don't need 100MB...

If I shoot photos, scan documents, composite artwork, generate raster PDFs these can all generate a lot of traffic based depending on the scale.

The solutions are generally having faster upload to back this data up, or compressing it in a lossy method, right?

As previously mentioned, a cloud based solution can do all this an negates the need for on premise backup. it also has the advantage of being available wherever you plug into the internet. The backup solution we use at work for mobile workers like myself, it looks for changes in files and backs up those changes. This can take a minute or two. For a small to medium business this would work fine and wouldn't require 100MB.

 

Well, in a few cases I'm familiar with it's ADSL2 or $1500 a month for 8/8 ethernet. Those are the only options. I don't know how widespread that experience is.

 

I understand where the cloud is a "great" solution, and where it isn't. What I'm pointing out is that you can't take photos "in the cloud", because the camera is here in the real-world. Likewise, I've yet to see a compelling creative suite alternative. My datastore example is something I've come across a number of times, the responsiveness of cloud based datastores simply don't match local storage (and nor should it). Now I know there are a bunch of ways you can address it, however at the same time, I haven't seen any that come into small/medium business pricing without seriously changing the data workflow.

 

TBH, I'm kind of sick of arguing about whether bandwidth is useful or not. In my experience, it would be invaluable, because for a lot of small businesses what they want is a bolt on cheap offsite backup. Now I'm not saying we should spend $40 billion on scratching that itch, and it would be damn nice if a lot of small/medium businesses changed how they acted to be a bit more data/process smart. But to say it's just for downloading porn quickly, and that there will be no advantage seems to me to be a losing argument.

 

I didn't come into this thread to demonstrate that there is a cast-iron business model for the NBN. I don't know if there is, or not.

All I wanted to do, is point out that flippantly saying "faster porn" = the NBN isn't exactly an accurate depiction of the real world benefit.

 

I've spent all the time I can today on atomic, and I'm not going to argue any more usage cases.

 

If you and Leonid think that small/med business can't/won't use the NBN, and that it doesn't offer any utility to business then make that argument by all means. I think it's a crock, and that's all I'm objecting to.

Personally (and I don't work in windows, Leonid, so maybe it's different for you) most small businesses I work with would go onto the NBN just to make their cloud email load faster, but once they are one there it can be used to do a lot in the background for the business.

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Swan is finance superhero

I'm sorry... that's the best thing this thread has produced thus far.

 

The LOLs are incredible.

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Yep. Plenty for small business whose uploading is typically confined to their email server sending emails.

We were talking about photos right?

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I've been staying out of this until now because I'm not in a position to comment with any authority. I'm still not going to address who is going to benefit or lose out in the immediate future - I simply do not know. What seems pretty blatantly obvious, though, is that you're all so bogged down in the minutiae of current technology that you're kinda missing the point at the moment:

If you open the pipes up, more stuff can flow.

 

ie: Even if the current data requirements are perfectly matched by current infrastructure, you can't say the same about tomorrow. Or next year. Or five years from now. Traffic only increases, and it increases even faster when software authors know they have some headroom.

 

"640K should be enough for anyone!" Ring a bell?

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Well, in a few cases I'm familiar with it's ADSL2 or $1500 a month for 8/8 ethernet. Those are the only options. I don't know how widespread that experience is.

Doesn't seem to be widespread. I have clients on 10/10 Ethernet at $800.

 

And not even in metro areas. In metro areas, most of my clients are on Fibre.

 

I understand where the cloud is a "great" solution, and where it isn't. What I'm pointing out is that you can't take photos "in the cloud", because the camera is here in the real-world. Likewise, I've yet to see a compelling creative suite alternative. My datastore example is something I've come across a number of times, the responsiveness of cloud based datastores simply don't match local storage (and nor should it). Now I know there are a bunch of ways you can address it, however at the same time, I haven't seen any that come into small/medium business pricing without seriously changing the data workflow.

You can sync up to the cloud just fine with data deposited on a local NAS. That's what we do. No issues.

 

But to say it's just for downloading porn quickly, and that there will be no advantage seems to me to be a losing argument.

Really? Pleas provide a reason for $3800 Fibre connectivity to SquallStrife's house.

 

If you and Leonid think that small/med business can't/won't use the NBN, and that it doesn't offer any utility to business then make that argument by all means. I think it's a crock, and that's all I'm objecting to.

Personally (and I don't work in windows, Leonid, so maybe it's different for you) most small businesses I work with would go onto the NBN just to make their cloud email load faster, but once they are one there it can be used to do a lot in the background for the business.

Cloud email load faster... what in the hell?

 

Google is "cloud" email. How much faster is it going to be on a 100Mbps pipe?

 

Yep. Plenty for small business whose uploading is typically confined to their email server sending emails.

We were talking about photos right?

 

Uploading photos where?

 

Doesn't seem to be widespread. I have clients on 10/10 Ethernet at $800.

 

And not even in metro areas. In metro areas, most of my clients are on Fibre.

Sorry - need to clarify this comment.

 

Most of my clients who have MPLS connections to my cloud are on Fibre if they're in metro areas. Outside those areas it's a mix of Ethernet, SHDSL and ADSL MPLS connections.

 

Those who have no need for MPLS, use stock-standard Telstra Business ADSL2+ (our recommendation) or other providers' ADSL/ADSL2+.

 

If you open the pipes up, more stuff can flow.

Great. Which still doesn't explain the need for a taxpayer-funded whole-of-Australia network.

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Really? Pleas provide a reason for $3800 Fibre connectivity to SquallStrife's house.

$99.95/month actually. That's that I will pay.

 

If someone else wants to invest $3800 and probably earn a small return from the government (or risk making a loss) then that's their problem. I benefit.

 

And before you say the T word, note that Malcolm Turnbull has finally accepted that the NBN has been costed correctly, as an off-budget item.

Edited by SquallStrife

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