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ilyria109

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Really? Pleas provide a reason for $3800 Fibre connectivity to SquallStrife's house.

$99.95/month actually.

 

If someone else wants to invest $3800 and probably earn a small return from the government (or risk making a loss) then that's their problem. I benefit.

 

And before you say the T word, note that Malcolm Turnbull has finally accepted that the NBN has been costed correctly, as an off-budget item.

 

$3800 is how much your connection costs Australian taxpayers without interest on repayments of $40b factored in.

 

Tell me

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Guest xyzzy frobozz

... note that Malcolm Turnbull has finally accepted that the NBN has been costed correctly, as an off-budget item.

Yep.

 

And notice that the Libs have dropped off banging on about the NBN and moved onto the greener pastures of asylum seekers and the carbon tax? Even Tony Abbott has kept his trap shut on the subject.

Edited by xyzzy frobozz

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If you and Leonid think that small/med business can't/won't use the NBN, and that it doesn't offer any utility to business then make that argument by all means. I think it's a crock, and that's all I'm objecting to.

Personally (and I don't work in windows, Leonid, so maybe it's different for you) most small businesses I work with would go onto the NBN just to make their cloud email load faster, but once they are one there it can be used to do a lot in the background for the business.

I never said it was a load of crock. I simply questioned the assumption that many seem to make that prices will be better.

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$3800 is how much your connection costs Australian taxpayers without interest on repayments of $40b factored in.

Sounds reasonable.

 

I wonder how that compares to the cost of installing my shitty copper line in the 60s/70s/whenever my area was developed.

 

I haven't made a phone call on copper since I moved in (though I had to pay for the phone line during that time, thanks Howard).

 

$3800 for something I will personally get a massive amount of use from? That's heaps cheaper than I could get fibre installed for otherwise. Sign me up!

Edited by SquallStrife

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... note that Malcolm Turnbull has finally accepted that the NBN has been costed correctly, as an off-budget item.

Yep.

 

And notice that the Libs have dropped off banging on about the NBN and moved onto the greener pastures of asylum seekers and the carbon tax? Even Tony Abbott has kept his trap shut on the subject.

 

It'll come back.

 

Everything is cyclical in politics...

 

:(

 

$3800 is how much your connection costs Australian taxpayers without interest on repayments of $40b factored in.

Sounds reasonable.

 

I wonder how that compares to the cost of installing my shitty copper line in the 60s/70s/whenever my area was developed.

 

I haven't made a phone call on copper since I moved in (though I had to pay for the phone line during that time, thanks Howard).

 

$3800 for something I will personally get a massive amount of use from? Sign me up!

 

So lets agree that you don't need it? You just want it.

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Swan is finance superhero

I'm sorry... that's the best thing this thread has produced thus far.

 

The LOLs are incredible.

 

 

 

One

 

Two

 

Two ,

 

Two references ah ah ah ......

 

/sesame street

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Or go the full rebellion in one hit. Repeal the 2-party preferred voting scam, ban all parties, ban political advertising, mandate equal press time for all candidates. Only then might we come close to having an honest election.

What do you mean by '2-party preferred voting scam'?

The scam where if you don't number each candidate below the line in order of your preference your vote just gets passed up the line until either the labour or liberal candidate gets in.

 

Have all MPs and Senators independent? I kind of like that idea for the legislative but I don't know how it would work for the executive. Directly elected President perhaps?

Sure it would. That way legislation can only be passed on its merits and not because the boys in the party backroom dictate it so.

 

I agree on banning government advertising.

Mandating equal press time for all candidates seems a bit authoritarian and anti-freedom. I want the press to be free.

 

So do I, at the moment the MSM is simply biased towards the staus quo and EVERY election is reported from the very start in a way that the outcome (either labour or liberal and NO ONE else) is a foregone conclusion. Which it is of course but only in a self-fulfilling prophecy kind of way. If the plebs knew of ALL their choices they might vote differently, can't be havin' none of that.

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If you and Leonid think that small/med business can't/won't use the NBN, and that it doesn't offer any utility to business then make that argument by all means. I think it's a crock, and that's all I'm objecting to.

Personally (and I don't work in windows, Leonid, so maybe it's different for you) most small businesses I work with would go onto the NBN just to make their cloud email load faster, but once they are one there it can be used to do a lot in the background for the business.

I never said it was a load of crock. I simply questioned the assumption that many seem to make that prices will be better.

 

What I still have trouble believing is that this network will cost us only ~$40b...

 

Also it's in the NBN docs that a 12Mbps service will cost $53-$58/month and a 50Mbps service will cost $78 - $85/month.

 

At 25Mbps it'll cost the same as ADSL.

 

Now, the US FCC has done some work on this:

Household Demand for Broadband Internet Service

...

The marginal utility estimates for FAST SPEED and VERY FAST SPEED in Table 8

indicate that households value an improvement in connection speed from slow to very fast (i.e.,

WTP = $48.12) only slightly more than an improvement from slow to fast (i.e., WTP =

$45.10). In other words, very fast service is worth approximately $3 more than fast service.

An explanation for this finding is that the typical household in the sample is involved in

Internet activities and applications at home that do not require blazing fast download and

upload speeds. When we split the sample by household's existing connection speed, we

observe in Table 9 that households with slow speed are willing to pay about $16 per month for

an improvement to fast and that they place no premium on very fast speed. Households with a

fast Internet connection value that speed at about $39, relative to slow speed, and also place no

premium on very fast speed. Households with very fast Internet connection value fast speed at

about $55 per month and value very fast speed at about $63 per month. Willingness-to-pay for

reliability of service also increases with household's existing connection speed. Households

with slow speed are willing to pay about $11 per month for an improvement in service

reliability and households with fast and very fast speeds are willing to pay about $19 and $25,

respectively.

In other words - how many people will actually want to upgrade to the 100Mbps speeds when the reality is that a half-capable 12Mbps ADSL2+ connection, is more than what they need?

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So lets agree that you don't need it? You just want it.

Irrelevant. The cost is acceptable to me. I'm not voting for* you, or my next-door-neighbour, or anyone.

 

Edit: * = on behalf of

 

But it doesn't matter anyway, Labor as a party is so incompetent they have no hope next election. The Libs will bumble their way to victory, playing off Labor's incompetence, and pandering to our idiot "fuck off we're full" population.

 

As I've mentioned in other threads, I'm at peace with the fact that the only acceptable Internet connection at my house for the forseeable future will be Bigpond HFC. Either Labor's NBN will roll around eventually, or Coalition will piss away money on a vertically integrated Bigpond FTTN.

 

At 25Mbps it'll cost the same as ADSL.

Except will actually be 25Mbps like it says on the box. Not a dice-roll.

Edited by SquallStrife

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Swan is finance superhero

I'm sorry... that's the best thing this thread has produced thus far.

 

The LOLs are incredible.

 

 

 

One

 

Two

 

Two ,

 

Two references ah ah ah ......

 

/sesame street

 

Euromoney 2006 Best Investment Bank – Lehman Brothers - went bust in 2007

 

Euromoney 2006 Best Equity House – Morgan Stanley - had to be bailed out in 2007

 

Euromoney 2006 Best at Risk Management – Bear Stearns - went bust in 2007

 

Euromoney 2006 Best at Investor Services – Citigroup - had to be bailed out in 2007

 

More?

 

So lets agree that you don't need it? You just want it.

Irrelevant. The cost is acceptable to me. I'm not voting for* you, or my next-door-neighbour, or anyone.

 

Edit: * = on behalf of

It's not irrelevant when considering the fact that $7000 is the per-year services-from-the-government worth of every Australia, and half is being spent on a single infrastructure project in one hit. Do you need the NBN? Or can you actually live, function without it in your home?

 

It's a damned simple question.

 

Except will actually be 25Mbps like it says on the box. Not a dice-roll.

Yeah, but even 12Mbps is a fast internet connection to most people. Will they pay the premium for a doubling in speed?

 

I doubt it. My parents and grandparents wouldn't.

 

What I'm not sure some people here understand is that this NBN isn't coming out of magic money.

 

It's not money that won't have to be repaid. It's money borrowed from China or wherever that'll have to be repaid with interest. It'll be repaid from our taxes and because it'll take a fair chunk of our taxes over several years to repay it, during that time, that money marked for use as repayment can't be used for other stuff we like - like welfare increases, like teacher pay rises, like more cops on streets.

 

This is why the Coalition wants to build the NBN but actually have it make sense and put it in places where it makes sense to have it. SquallStrife's house is not a sensible location for a fibre cable termination. Neither is mine.

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This is why the Coalition wants to build the NBN but actually have it make sense and put it in places where it makes sense to have it. SquallStrife's house is not a sensible location for a fibre cable termination. Neither is mine.

But John Smith's house in Greenfield X estate is?

 

I can smell those freshly picked cherries.

Edited by SquallStrife

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This is why the Coalition wants to build the NBN but actually have it make sense and put it in places where it makes sense to have it. SquallStrife's house is not a sensible location for a fibre cable termination. Neither is mine.

But John Smith's house in Greenfield X estate is?

 

We're talking about different things now. I think the government should legislate construction laws that all new sites should have fibre/coax running to and through them. If a telco wants to connect to that site with fibre/HFC, they should be able to.

 

You seem to ahve trouble understanding that I'm not arguing against the speed the NBN will provide, nor the utility it will provide to a minority.

 

I'm arguing that it is not a necessary project, especially not on debt financing, nor is it a good thing that it's being developed by the Federal Government while eliminating alternatives.

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We're talking about different things now. I think the government should legislate construction laws that all new sites should have fibre/coax running to and through them. If a telco wants to connect to that site with fibre/HFC, they should be able to.

But, since my estate was built in the 60s through 00s, fuck em?

 

You seem to ahve trouble understanding that I'm not arguing against the speed the NBN will provide, nor the utility it will provide to a minority.

Right, you're saying that if you have copper now, fuck ya.

 

I'm arguing that it is not a necessary project, especially not on debt financing, nor is it a good thing that it's being developed by the Federal Government while eliminating alternatives.

The reason the federal government is involved is because the alternatives were alienated by former coalition governments.

Edited by SquallStrife

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But, since my estate was built in the 60s through 00s, fuck em?

Yep.

 

Right, you're saying that if you have copper now, fuck ya.

Yep.

 

The reason the federal government is involved is because the alternatives were alienated by former coalition governments.

What alternatives?

 

Can I ask you a question Squall... how did your 60s/70s estate get HFC?

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But, since my estate was built in the 60s through 00s, fuck em?

Yep.

 

Right, you're saying that if you have copper now, fuck ya.

Yep.

 

Good to know you're as apathetic about bottom-feeders on ye olde copper, as I am about people that don't use the Internet much.

 

Can I ask you a question Squall... how did your 60s/70s estate get HFC?

Dumb luck.

 

As in, just plain lucky that our street* was completed before the pin was pulled.

 

* = The street containing the house we liked when we were looking for property.

Edited by SquallStrife

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Good to know you're as apathetic about bottom-feeders on ye olde copper, as I am about people that don't use the Internet much.

I'm a bottom-feeder on ye-olde copper and my estate was built in the late 90s.

 

As in, just plain lucky that our street was completed before the pin was pulled.

You mean a private telco saw a market opportunity?

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I'm a bottom-feeder on ye-olde copper and my estate was built in the late 90s.

I said 60s thru 00s. The 90s was the worst, you're lucky to not in RIM hell.

 

As in, just plain lucky that our street was completed before the pin was pulled.

You mean a private telco saw a market opportunity?

 

The "market opportunity" was for pay TV, not Internet. So I guess I'm also lucky that HFC doesn't suck out loud as a data network, as opposed to that antique rats' nest you connect through.

 

 

Relevant: http://delimiter.com.au/2012/09/06/backdow...get-accounting/

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I said 60s thru 00s. The 90s was the worst, you're lucky to not in RIM hell.

Both sides of politics agree that RIMs need to be fixed by modifying the RIMs with ADSL boards (now possible) or removing them.

 

The "market opportunity" was for pay TV, not Internet. So I guess I'm also lucky that HFC doesn't suck out loud as a data network, as opposed to that antique rats' nest you connect through.

 

 

Relevant: http://delimiter.com.au/2012/09/06/backdow...get-accounting/

None the less - someone saw an opportunity to make money and put cable down as an investment.

 

No-one's done that for Fibre on a national scale.

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Swan is finance superhero

I'm sorry... that's the best thing this thread has produced thus far.

 

The LOLs are incredible.

 

 

 

One

 

Two

 

Two ,

 

Two references ah ah ah ......

 

/sesame street

 

Euromoney 2006 Best Investment Bank – Lehman Brothers - went bust in 2007

 

Euromoney 2006 Best Equity House – Morgan Stanley - had to be bailed out in 2007

 

Euromoney 2006 Best at Risk Management – Bear Stearns - went bust in 2007

 

Euromoney 2006 Best at Investor Services – Citigroup - had to be bailed out in 2007

 

More?

 

So lets agree that you don't need it? You just want it.

Irrelevant. The cost is acceptable to me. I'm not voting for* you, or my next-door-neighbour, or anyone.

 

Edit: * = on behalf of

It's not irrelevant when considering the fact that $7000 is the per-year services-from-the-government worth of every Australia, and half is being spent on a single infrastructure project in one hit. Do you need the NBN? Or can you actually live, function without it in your home?

 

It's a damned simple question.

 

Except will actually be 25Mbps like it says on the box. Not a dice-roll.

Yeah, but even 12Mbps is a fast internet connection to most people. Will they pay the premium for a doubling in speed?

 

I doubt it. My parents and grandparents wouldn't.

 

What I'm not sure some people here understand is that this NBN isn't coming out of magic money.

 

It's not money that won't have to be repaid. It's money borrowed from China or wherever that'll have to be repaid with interest. It'll be repaid from our taxes and because it'll take a fair chunk of our taxes over several years to repay it, during that time, that money marked for use as repayment can't be used for other stuff we like - like welfare increases, like teacher pay rises, like more cops on streets.

 

This is why the Coalition wants to build the NBN but actually have it make sense and put it in places where it makes sense to have it. SquallStrife's house is not a sensible location for a fibre cable termination. Neither is mine.

 

 

Thats a poor attempt. You're using the global financial crisis to discredit a publication?

 

Ill add that the only other Australian to win the award was another Labor treasurer in 1984.

 

On top of that the liberals have massive budget holes leads me to believe that they simply cant do accounting properly.

 

How can you run a country if you cant do multiplication and subtraction?

 

The good news is that with Labors education reforms a whole new generation of liberals will stand a better chance. Checks and measures I guess..

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Thats a poor attempt. You're using the global financial crisis to discredit a publication?

A global financial crisis caused in large part in the years prior by the very same companies?

 

You bet I am.

 

On top of that the liberals have massive budget holes leads me to believe that they simply cant do accounting properly.

What you call holes are unfilled policies. They haven't said where they'll get the savings from.

 

How can you run a country if you cant do multiplication and subtraction?

Ask Swannie. He announced a wafer-thin budget surplus in this budget, yet his leader just committed more money to asylum seekers, gonski, ndis, dental, etc.

 

Currently they're not explaining how they'll achieve budget surplus with these not-in-budget requirements.

 

The good news is that with Labors education reforms a whole new generation of liberals will stand a better chance. Checks and measures I guess..

Pity there's no guarantee of outcomes since it's not an outcome-based reform, eh?

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None the less - someone saw an opportunity to make money and put cable down as an investment.

Wasn't that someone the federal government?

 

Didn't the HFC rollout begin before Telstra was flogged off?

 

Also, did you read the article I linked? NBN is forecast to provide a 7.1% return FOR the government.

 

Investing in infrastructure, what a novel idea!

Edited by SquallStrife

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None the less - someone saw an opportunity to make money and put cable down as an investment.

Wasn't that someone the federal government?

 

Didn't the HFC rollout begin before Telstra was flogged off?

 

Yep - I had forgotten that.

 

Within Telstra's operating budget and in a public-private partnership from memory?.

 

Not as an extra.

 

Also, did you read the article I linked? NBN is forecast to provide a 7.1% return FOR the government.

It's also forecast to have passed 320,000 homes as at June. Just saying.

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Guest xyzzy frobozz

The scam where if you don't number each candidate below the line in order of your preference your vote just gets passed up the line until either the labour or liberal candidate gets in.

Director,

 

I know what you’re getting at with the preferential system, but there’s nothing stopping you preferencing the major parties last, is there?

 

The reason why we have a two party system in Australia, and pretty much every democracy to a greater or lesser extent, is that both parties cover quite a broad band of the political spectrum from right to left. If I could use the analogy of a 30cm ruler, with the political “centre” being at 15cm, the Labor Party would cover from about 5cm to 15cm, and the Liberal/Nationals from 15cm to 25cm. In the Labor Party there are well the well-established factions of the Labor Left and Right. Within the Coalition you have the “small L” liberals towards the centre, and “Big L” Liberals and the Nationals on the Conservative Right.

 

Please bear with the analogy….

 

This leaves the Greens to cover points from about 5cm to 1cm, the Communists and Socialists on 0-1cm on the left.

 

On the far right of our ruler you have One Nation, the Citizen’s Electoral Council and the Christian Democrats. Bob Katter’s Australia Party flaps on the extreme right and left wings simultaneously, thereby providing a bit of light-hearted entertainment to all of us.

 

Here’s the thing. The Coalition and the Labor Party dominate not because of some evil conspiracy or dodgyness within the preferential voting system, but because they represent the majority of the population from a political perspective. Believe it or not, most people don’t have extreme right or left wing political views. Those parties that sit at the extremes tend poll well at an election or two when campaigning on a particular issue, and then fizzle out once that issue is no longer seen as being important to the majority of the electorate. One Nation is an example of this, and the Greens are heading that way themselves. Once you live under the silliness that extreme parties (like the Greens) bring to the system, most of the time people will vote accordingly and send them back to where they belong – the fringe.

 

Australia has a good democracy. Unfortunately for you, people like yourself (and I’m not having a go at you, just calling it how I see it) who have political views that are quite extreme, are in the minority and are represented accordingly.

 

That may change one day.

Edited by xyzzy frobozz

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Thats a poor attempt. You're using the global financial crisis to discredit a publication?

A global financial crisis caused in large part in the years prior by the very same companies?

 

You bet I am.

 

On top of that the liberals have massive budget holes leads me to believe that they simply cant do accounting properly.

What you call holes are unfilled policies. They haven't said where they'll get the savings from.

 

How can you run a country if you cant do multiplication and subtraction?

Ask Swannie. He announced a wafer-thin budget surplus in this budget, yet his leader just committed more money to asylum seekers, gonski, ndis, dental, etc.

 

Currently they're not explaining how they'll achieve budget surplus with these not-in-budget requirements.

 

The good news is that with Labors education reforms a whole new generation of liberals will stand a better chance. Checks and measures I guess..

Pity there's no guarantee of outcomes since it's not an outcome-based reform, eh?

 

Swan delivers a slim budget surplus in the most trying global economical times since the great depression and you say he's not a great treasurer by discrediting a publication that gave him that award.

 

Because

 

That publication recommended three companies that went bust two years later when the GFC hit?

 

Then in the same reply criticise a government who wants to return the surplus to the people by providing better education,dental care and managing our borders better.

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