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TheSingularity

Top Neurosurgeon Spent Six Days In Heaven-during-a-coma

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If he perhaps described Heaven in a way that wasn't so stereotyped, I'd listen to his story a little closer. But given he pretty much described a common image of a Christian Heaven, then I'd say he's just spent a little too much time in Sunday School before bed time.

 

It's funny how the human race is still so self absorbed that we think we're the center of the universe, and we have a personal relationship with its creator, despite being an almost invisible spec in the grand scheme of things.

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But given he pretty much described a cartoon image of a Christian Heaven.

FIFY.

 

I remember thinking one day as to if the colours i see are the same colours as everyone else sees.

 

I mean imagine if the way i perceive green is the way you perceive red, it wouldn't affect anyone (bar the colour blind) because we would still perceive them as differing to each other and would never realize that others see them differently.

 

And that was the last time i ever drank a large quantity of absinthe... 70% abvol does some strange shit...

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Guest xyzzy frobozz

I have a friend who I have been close to for many years.

 

For the first eight or so years I knew him, he was an extreme skeptic on anything remotely "supernatural". I would consider him to be of an extremely high-imtellect, bourne out by his school results.

 

He was working part time at a club suplementing his wages. On his way out one night a fight broke out in the lobby, and he stepped in to intervene. On of those involved in the fracas punched him in the stomach. He went home that night feeling "not quite right", but the next morning and next few days he felt OK.

 

A few months before his ex-girlfriend had committed suicide at home. Brent related to me a very strange experience. He said that after they broke up, his ex- had moved to a new house which he didn't know the location of. He'd tried to get in touch, but she wouldn't return his calls. Shorlty after her death he was very upset, and staring at a picture of her when he had the urge to jump into his car and drive. He felt very unsettled. He drove to a block of apartments about 10 kms away, and stopped out the front and looked at the door of the unit - number 10. Instantly he felt releived and went home.

 

The following day, he received a phone call from his ex-'s flatmate saying that she was moving out, and asking him if he would like a few things from their relationship. Sure enough, it was the same address that he'd riven to the previous night.

 

Brent was really confused about this, he came to me quite distressed about it. I told him that there were things that we couldn't explain, and that finding an explanation wasn't important, that it was the experience that mattered.

 

A few months later and Brent is back in the club having a few drinks after work. Suddenly he feels extremely nauseous, and his stomach hurts where he'd been hit a week or two before. He collapses. An abulance is called and he is rushed to hospital unconscious. He is rushed into surgery where they find massive internal bleeding, but cannot find the source of the continuing bleeding. He said that, although unconscious he can hear everything that is going on. The sirens, the medicos, being rushed into surgery, the beep of the "machine that goes bing".

 

His mother called to the hospital and told to expect the worse, the rate of blood loss is increasing, and it is suspected that he is bleeding not from a wound, but from the breakdown of cells in an internal bruise. There is nothing that can be done. Brent is wheeled into the room where you're sent to die.

 

The whole time Brent says he is conscious of this fact. He is also conscious of a presence - that of his ex-. She is laughing in a carefree way, totally at peace. He asks her, "Why are you laughing? I'm going to die".

 

"You're not going to die".

 

"They've said we're losing him, I'm dying".

 

"They can't see what I can see".

 

He hears the surgeon say something to the effect of "There's nothing we can do". And becomes aware of being wheeled out of surgery and into room "2A".

 

Brents mother joins him in what are assumed to be his final hours. His vitals are fading. He's dying. But he doesn't die. He holds on for two days and then makes a sudden rapid recovery and regains consciousness.

 

His mother is there when he wakes. He is very lucid. He tells her what has happened but she later tells me "It was really weird, but I just thought well, you were in a bad way, but maybe you dream't it". She told him she though he was dreaming.

 

"Then how do I know I'm in room 2A?".

 

I have absolutely no reason to disbelieve Brent. In fact, in light of the person he was prior to that experience, to the one he has become, it makes me quite certain he is telling the truth. Furthermore, Brent has become extremely intuitive, to the point of uncanniness - put it this way, we see each other quite rarely now (2-3 times a year) but, now that I'm writing this, I fully expect to hear from him in the next few days....

 

Anyway, that's someone who I have known well for a long time. Brent was always the "facts" man. He only believed what was logical, what could be proven.

 

He has since decided to enter the clergy.

 

It's funny how the human race is still so self absorbed that we think we're the center of the universe, and we have a personal relationship with its creator, despite being an almost invisible spec in the grand scheme of things.

Which completely ignores the mystery/problem of consciousness.

Edited by xyzzy frobozz

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Had a similar thing happen to a mate of mine except instead of being aware of what was going on around him at the time he left his body and went to his house. Days later after his recovery he was able to recount events and conversations that were going on at his parents house that he could not have had any knowledge of.

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If he perhaps described Heaven in a way that wasn't so stereotyped, I'd listen to his story a little closer. But given he pretty much described a common image of a Christian Heaven, then I'd say he's just spent a little too much time in Sunday School before bed time.

 

It's funny how the human race is still so self absorbed that we think we're the center of the universe, and we have a personal relationship with its creator, despite being an almost invisible spec in the grand scheme of things.

 

Human beings are at least the very least anomalous within what we can see so far of the universe.

 

It also seems strange reasoning to assume the universe is eternal but life and consciousness as a product of the universe is not.

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It also seems strange reasoning to assume the universe is eternal but life and consciousness as a product of the universe is not.

everything changes, nothing exists in a stasis eternally,

therefore there has to be death because it violates all logic that the essence that makes up who we are can exist forever in some afterlife.

 

I would also argue that if we did have souls then they would not be completely contained within the brain.

Shut down the brain and it might be quiet enough for our soul to start interpreting hormones and other chemical signals our body makes.

There is no logic to suggest that the brain ties the soul to the body and that without it we will 'float up to heaven'.

 

Have your heaven and after life if you want to but I must insist on a few conditions.

1) You can die in the afterlife - You will never remain you forever.

2) You can only reach afterlife when you are completely dead (ie all parts of your body are starting to decay)

3) Eyes exists on this plane of existence only - if you are seeing things then you aren't seeing the afterlife.

4) Don't go around trying to convert people, if someone isn't interested do you really want to accidently convert them and then be stuck with them for eternity?

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Guest xyzzy frobozz

Have your heaven and after life if you want to but I must insist on a few conditions.

1) You can die in the afterlife - You will never remain you forever.

2) You can only reach afterlife when you are completely dead (ie all parts of your body are starting to decay)

3) Eyes exists on this plane of existence only - if you are seeing things then you aren't seeing the afterlife.

4) Don't go around trying to convert people, if someone isn't interested do you really want to accidently convert them and then be stuck with them for eternity?

I'm not arguing that those conditions aren't valid, or are "no good", I'm just curious as to why you must have those conditions?

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It also seems strange reasoning to assume the universe is eternal but life and consciousness as a product of the universe is not.

You are eternal, you die, get buried, decompose, turn into coal, and continue on the fossil fuel cycle. Forever.

 

What happens to your personality, your ideas, your memories? They shrivel and rot with the rest of the brain, making the surrounding soil more fertile.

Edited by SquallStrife

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Engaging story.

Thank fuck for that you actually gave an engaging response something I originally thought I would get and then a further large discussion would issue about what each of us believes when it comes to truth, proof, possibility, philosophy etc etc.

 

As it was I had already abandoned this thread thanks to the rather basic replies that instead were just trying to prove the neurosurgeon wrong instead of further discussing it and participating. As I know for myself I do not have all the answers but I still like to talk about it as it is interesting and it is interesting to see what others believe and how they got there and why they believe that.

 

Anyway thanks as it looks like you have started up some somewhat more engaging responses. Instead of having narrow-minded replies where the people believe they know the truth because it is because they believe it is. Which considering there is no way to prove something undeniably and irrefutably there beliefs can always be doubted and thus unless you can use the scientific method to prove something scientifically even then you have nothing. Has I have already worked out myself the scientific method can't even prove you have thoughts as it is based on the empirical system which is the 5 senses, sight, smell, touch, taste, and hearing none of which can sense your thoughts.

 

I myself no longer am definite in my beliefs of a god or religion I actually refute it and do not wish to be limited by rules produced by something I cannot prove exists. So for those who well trying to poke fun at the fact I posted an article about a guy claiming that there is a heaven well your responses seemed rather immature as they were unnecessary and would only offend others, where they would normally respect your beliefs and not insult you for them whereas you would insult them because you do not believe in them. You have no proof to disprove them so once again you are wasting the readers time.

Edited by TheSingularity

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It also seems strange reasoning to assume the universe is eternal but life and consciousness as a product of the universe is not.

everything changes, nothing exists in a stasis eternally,

Everything DOES change...except for God.

 

therefore there has to be death because it violates all logic that the essence that makes up who we are can exist forever in some afterlife.

Only if that essence is purely physical, but that's the whole argument isn't it?

 

 

I would also argue that if we did have souls then they would not be completely contained within the brain.

Shut down the brain and it might be quiet enough for our soul to start interpreting hormones and other chemical signals our body makes.

I don't even know what you're saying there.

 

There is no logic to suggest that the brain ties the soul to the body and that without it we will 'float up to heaven'.

The words 'float' and 'up' are words that apply to physical things only, why would you think they apply to a non-physical soul is one exists. (Or 'heaven' for that matter.)? And I'm not sure what logic has to do with the mind/body conundrum. I mean I 'feel' as though I exist 'in my head' where my brain is, and that's where all of the mental activity goes on (or not :) ), so maybe the brain is where the soul is all quantum entangled or something? We know far too little about either to make definitive claims at this point in time.

 

Have your heaven and after life if you want to but I must insist on a few conditions.

1) You can die in the afterlife - You will never remain you forever.

Does that mean you can go onto the after after life?

 

2) You can only reach afterlife when you are completely dead (ie all parts of your body are starting to decay)

Plenty of mystic throughout time would disagree with you. Granted, most of them always come 'back' from their excursions. :)

 

3) Eyes exists on this plane of existence only - if you are seeing things then you aren't seeing the afterlife.

Why are eyes necessary? All the do is pass certain information to your brain. It is YOU that sees, not your eyes. Pretty sure my eyes are closed when I'm asleep and I see quite clearly when I'm dreaming.

 

4) Don't go around trying to convert people, if someone isn't interested do you really want to accidently convert them and then be stuck with them for eternity?

Assuming your understanding of who 'you' are is accurate and that's what goes on into eternity. By why WOULDN'T you want to discuss such a unique experience?

 

 

Stuff to think about:

 

Edited by Director

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I have to wonder are these basic replies at times because of the fact philosophy and an understanding of how conciousness works and how you exist has not been explored. I myself am not sure how that question hasn't arrived yet in the people who have answered whose replies were so short. How is it you can explain everything away in such little words, is it purely because you don't know and you do not wish to investigate it because it just causes you a headache?

 

I should have mentioned your replies were also engaging Director, I'm just afraid and sorry that whenever you bring up your opinion most of the forum rebukes it for conspiracy theories or religious mumbo jumbo.

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How is it you can explain everything away in such little words, is it purely because you don't know and you do not wish to investigate it because it just causes you a headache?

It's because I know the pointlessness of wasting too much time trying to discuss things with people who aren't really interested and only want to assert their point of view (which is OK, we all do it, but we shouldn't expect those assumptions to go unchallenged on a public forum.). Much easier to post links, insert video clips and challenge assumptions.

 

I should have mentioned your replies were also engaging Director, I'm just afraid and sorry that whenever you bring up your opinion most of the forum rebukes it for conspiracy theories or religious mumbo jumbo.

 

That's what they said about Jesus too. :)

 

But if you are interested in the topic that you started then the videos I put up are interesting and on topic.

Edited by Director

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I have to wonder are these basic replies at times because of the fact philosophy and an understanding of how conciousness works and how you exist has not been explored. I myself am not sure how that question hasn't arrived yet in the people who have answered whose replies were so short. How is it you can explain everything away in such little words, is it purely because you don't know and you do not wish to investigate it because it just causes you a headache?

When there's money involved it pays to be skeptical (pun intended). It's something you'll learn as you get older.

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It also seems strange reasoning to assume the universe is eternal but life and consciousness as a product of the universe is not.

everything changes, nothing exists in a stasis eternally,

Everything DOES change...except for God.

 

God doesn't change? Really? The forgiving god as described in the new testament seems very different to the vengeful God in the old? Also how did god exist as the holy trinity befor jesus was born? He also seems to intervene less than He used to. Maybe he has changed how much he physically intervenes these days.

 

therefore there has to be death because it violates all logic that the essence that makes up who we are can exist forever in some afterlife.

Only if that essence is purely physical, but that's the whole argument isn't it?

 

If there is no psyical manfestation that passivly excerts influence on objects within a reasonable proximity then there is no constant to prevent change. Something that has no physical form would be in constant change as it would have a purely relativistic existance.

 

I would also argue that if we did have souls then they would not be completely contained within the brain.

Shut down the brain and it might be quiet enough for our soul to start interpreting hormones and other chemical signals our body makes.

I don't even know what you're saying there.

 

I'm saying that our experience of the world is not limited to our brain's interpretation of it. If your brain is incapacitated and you are still alive then you find other ways to experience what you can.

 

There is no logic to suggest that the brain ties the soul to the body and that without it we will 'float up to heaven'.

The words 'float' and 'up' are words that apply to physical things only, why would you think they apply to a non-physical soul is one exists. (Or 'heaven' for that matter.)? And I'm not sure what logic has to do with the mind/body conundrum. I mean I 'feel' as though I exist 'in my head' where my brain is, and that's where all of the mental activity goes on (or not :) ), so maybe the brain is where the soul is all quantum entangled or something? We know far too little about either to make definitive claims at this point in time.

 

I used the quotation marks to reference a commonly used phrase that people use when describing a visit to what they believe is a representation of heaven. I am contesting the presumption that many people have that the soul is intrinsically tied to the brain.

 

 

Have your heaven and after life if you want to but I must insist on a few conditions.

1) You can die in the afterlife - You will never remain you forever.

 

Does that mean you can go onto the after after life?

That depends on your belief system, maybe there is is an after after life, maybe you get reincarnated, maybe you slowly loose your identity and blend into a higher consciousness, maybe you just forget who you are and cease to exist. Many people don't think too much about how they will spend their time in the afterlife nor what will happen when that ends.

 

2) You can only reach afterlife when you are completely dead (ie all parts of your body are starting to decay)

 

Plenty of mystic throughout time would disagree with you. Granted, most of them always come 'back' from their excursions. :)

I'm sure that there would be many people that would disagree with me.

However I don't know how people can reconcile the very definition of the word afterlife, it is AFTER life, if life isn't finished then its not happening after it now is it?

 

3) Eyes exists on this plane of existence only - if you are seeing things then you aren't seeing the afterlife.

 

Why are eyes necessary? All the do is pass certain information to your brain. It is YOU that sees, not your eyes. Pretty sure my eyes are closed when I'm asleep and I see quite clearly when I'm dreaming.

Eyes are necissary because sight is the brains interpretation of signals coming from the optic nerve. They are working on artifical devices that can mimic eyes, and sometimes the brain can simulate these signals in a dream state, but if it is not an electrical signal representing some physical construct then it is not sight.

 

You can imagine the afterlife or dream or hallucinate it even get a feel or impression of it. But if its not physical then you can't see it.

 

 

4) Don't go around trying to convert people, if someone isn't interested do you really want to accidently convert them and then be stuck with them for eternity?

 

Assuming your understanding of who 'you' are is accurate and that's what goes on into eternity. By why WOULDN'T you want to discuss such a unique experience?

Oh i'm not saying its not worth discussing, i'm fascinated by the beliefs of others.

However, there is a big difference between "this is what I believe" and "this is THE only possible answer, believe or suffer my ranting"

 

 

I'm not arguing that those conditions aren't valid, or are "no good", I'm just curious as to why you must have those conditions?

Because I believe that you can't argue from an arbritary stand point and when we are discussing a topic that is all theory, opinion and belief then everything is arbritrary unless you define some boundaries on what is a sensible belief and what is just plain silly.

 

My conditions are based on my opinion that change is the only constant, if you are not operating within the physical realm then you can't apply physical rules and that everyone if you can't offer concrete proof then you can't insist that other people should believe you.

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How is it you can explain everything away in such little words, is it purely because you don't know and you do not wish to investigate it because it just causes you a headache?

It's because I know the pointlessness of wasting too much time trying to discuss things with people who aren't really interested and only want to assert their point of view (which is OK, we all do it, but we shouldn't expect those assumptions to go unchallenged on a public forum.). Much easier to post links, insert video clips and challenge assumptions.

 

 

That first quote wasn't directed at you...You were one of the people that voiced only some of your opinions, and I'm sure you didn't go into much depth as you would end up with the belief nazis ranting over what you've said. I want to know what you personally think on the many matters of life, do you try to come at it from a scientific direction, do you see science as almost futile at trying to prove things, do you come at it from a spiritual direction, and what is it you believe on each of the many matters what explanation have you formulated.

 

That's what they said about Jesus too. :)

 

But if you are interested in the topic that you started then the videos I put up are interesting and on topic.

Ahh yes they did say that about Jesus, I know as Christianity was my upbringing and not until recently I was rather firm in my beliefs, it wasn't until a realisation that I cannot prove anything that it began to bother me, it further began to bother me that if such a God does not exist and my family has suffered for nothing well I want there to be something for them before death occurs in there lives.

 

I have to wonder are these basic replies at times because of the fact philosophy and an understanding of how conciousness works and how you exist has not been explored. I myself am not sure how that question hasn't arrived yet in the people who have answered whose replies were so short. How is it you can explain everything away in such little words, is it purely because you don't know and you do not wish to investigate it because it just causes you a headache?

When there's money involved it pays to be skeptical (pun intended). It's something you'll learn as you get older.

 

I already was sceptical, did you not read the entire title? It was irrelevant anyway as I wanted to hear opinions on peoples beliefs not whether they think this man is a liar. Such an argument could be ended by the simple fact he has no proof that is undeniable and irrefutable, as far as we know his proof maybe all fake productions to sell his book and gain a following.

Edited by TheSingularity

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and this TED talk is interesting and sort of related:

 

"Jill Bolte Taylor got a research opportunity few brain scientists would wish for: She had a massive stroke, and watched as her brain functions -- motion, speech, self-awareness -- shut down one by one. An astonishing story.

 

Brain researcher Jill Bolte Taylor studied her own stroke as it happened -- and has become a powerful voice for brain recovery."

 

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TheSingularity, you might find some of my comments here relevant.

I quite enjoyed that post. I have to wonder do those beliefs still stand true for you? Have there been any additions to those thoughts?

 

I do not entirely agree with all of it but that's me for ya xD.

 

It looks as thought Atomic has already had the conversation I was hoping for =\. As that thread looks spot on as to the kind of discussion I wanted.

 

I have to wonder why is it so many people shy away from asking these almost unanswerable questions, do they not find it interesting. I know they can't come up with an answer they know they can prove so why not be willing to still share it and discuss there stance on it? I find students I've known do not wish to talk about it either as they neither understand or can fathom what I am talk about and quite often give the response "I'm crazy" or tell me they can't cope with thinking about it as it may cause anxiety or other things or have a very narrow mind set on it all and do not wish to try discussing why they have those beliefs, as they most often can't or there responses are basic and unsatisfactory.

 

So it makes me wonder why here in Australia people I've encountered seem to have a hard time talking about it, it most often seems to be narrow mindedness but that can't be the only explanation.

Edited by TheSingularity

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TheSingularity, you might find some of my comments here relevant.

I quite enjoyed that post. I have to wonder do those beliefs still stand true for you? Have there been any additions to those thoughts?

 

I do not entirely agree with all of it but that's me for ya xD.

 

It looks as thought Atomic has already had the conversation I was hoping for =\. As that thread looks spot on as to the kind of discussion I wanted.

 

I have to wonder why is it so many people shy away from asking these almost unanswerable questions, do they not find it interesting. I know they can't come up with an answer they know they can prove so why not be willing to still share it and discuss there stance on it? I find students I've known do not wish to talk about it either as they neither understand or can fathom what I am talk about and quite often give the response "I'm crazy" or tell me they can't cope with thinking about it as it may cause anxiety or other things or have a very narrow mind set on it all and do not wish to try discussing why they have those beliefs, as they most often can't or there responses are basic and unsatisfactory.

 

So it makes me wonder why here in Australia people I've encountered seem to have a hard time talking about it, it most often seems to be narrow mindedness but that can't be the only explanation.

 

Desire has a choice to focus on one of two things.

 

1.

 

Sex, with its four generals of...

 

Power

Fame

Possessions

Food

 

Or

 

2.

 

Self knowledge.

 

 

I think you will find that 1 wins out almost all of the time.

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