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melkor

Help - can't install operating system

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I'm a photographer - Photoshop CS6 will sure like lots of ram! Especially with DSLRs with large image sizes. I see quite a number of other members on these forums going for 32 or even 64gb of ram! I guess we're all wrong ;-)

 

And Photoshop CS6 is going to fly on your XP system that can only access around 3.4Gb of that 32Gb you've got installed.

 

All that extra RAM you have in the system is made redundant because of the 32bit OS. You won't be able to access it.

 

 

If you see people using 32 or 64Gb of RAM they'd be running a 64bit OS so they can actually use all of the RAM...

 

 

 

Seriously you've just thrown money away buying so much RAM and sticking to 32bit.

 

 

But hey in the end it's your money and your computer.

 

 

especially when XP is still the dominant operating system in the world. Or do you plan to tell me that Vista, Windows 7 and Windows 8 are all more popular?

Large organisations use products generally until end of support life and then will upgrade. This is why XP is still so 'popular'

Edited by PointZeroOne

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I didn't make myself very clear in my original post (my bad, it was late!). My goal is a triple boot system - Windows 7 x64 ultimate will be the main day to day system. Debian will be there for mucking around with things or doing stuff that I can't easily do from Windows. XP will be solely a redundant drive o/s etc, it will not be used for day to day purposes. It's there for a rainy day.

 

All my day to day work will be done in Windows 7 (including Photoshop). Obviously it'll natively see the SSD and ram etc and make full use of it. I'm well aware of the ram limitations on a 32 bit system. :-)

 

I'm pretty confident that I've figured out the bios problem (being able to change the dram timing) and will test tonight. I'm pretty sure I've figured out why I can't install XP and why Debian is freezing part way through the install. Progress is being made thanks to some good suggestions from yourselves and me thinking and rtfm ;-)

 

Dave

 

I'm a photographer - Photoshop CS6 will sure like lots of ram! Especially with DSLRs with large image sizes. I see quite a number of other members on these forums going for 32 or even 64gb of ram! I guess we're all wrong ;-)

 

And Photoshop CS6 is going to fly on your XP system that can only access around 3.4Gb of that 32Gb you've got installed.

 

All that extra RAM you have in the system is made redundant because of the 32bit OS. You won't be able to access it.

 

 

If you see people using 32 or 64Gb of RAM they'd be running a 64bit OS so they can actually use all of the RAM...

 

 

 

Seriously you've just thrown money away buying so much RAM and sticking to 32bit.

 

 

But hey in the end it's your money and your computer.

 

 

especially when XP is still the dominant operating system in the world. Or do you plan to tell me that Vista, Windows 7 and Windows 8 are all more popular?

Large organisations use products generally until end of support life and then will upgrade. This is why XP is still so 'popular'

 

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I don't really give a rats ass about Microsoft. Nor any other big business for that matter.

So how much did you pay for photoshop?

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I don't really give a rats ass about Microsoft. Nor any other big business for that matter.

So how much did you pay for photoshop?

 

People pay for photoshop?

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especially when XP is still the dominant operating system in the world. Or do you plan to tell me that Vista, Windows 7 and Windows 8 are all more popular?

Large organisations use products generally until end of support life and then will upgrade. This is why XP is still so 'popular'

 

then once they realize they need to update it takes a couple of years to update all their systems to the latest (and by then there's usually another thing out...)

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Just a few points to make Melkor, a little off topic, but it would bug me.

 

- XP-x64 was not microsofts fault. Microsoft are NOT responsible for drivers. Thats the 3rd party. Its like saying VW are responsible for AUDI because they use VW drivetrains. Nope.

 

- Updates are ALWAYS clearly defined as security and stability updates, not compatability updates, so unfortunately, if you read the documentation well you'd have seen that.

 

- New OS' isnt there solely for money. If you kept upgrading XP, you'd eventually have 'support' for 486, through to my future made up 'Super CPU Over9000 chip'. THe OS would be HUGE, patch ridden, with hundredw of 'micro versions'. Some core files arent actually patchable while in use (even at boot). Sometimes, such as the case from 32bit to 64bit, its easier to go to a new OS, better designed than to try and staple on a new 'patch'.

 

and finally a question; why so much love for XP? Why do you think its 'popular'? Its only popular because it had a long run. If it was purely stability and software support, they'd have NEVER upgraded from Win2k. Generally speaking all XP apps run fine on Win2k, hell, most even on NT 4.0. Only the gaming industry demanded XP for better DirectX support and memory management.

 

 

Finally, your statement

I don't really give a rats ass about Microsoft. Nor any other big business for that matter.

is all well and good.

Don't use their products. Can I come use your lawnmower? Not pay to borrow it? Damage it? and expect you to repair it, and not care if I did it in the first place?

I'm no fan of 'big business' either. But there is a limit.

Little joey down the road pirating Windows is a moral 'meh' to me personally, he can do what he wants. However when a decision makes or breaks a company, and thousands of other companies that depend on them, I can respect their decision. Patching old shit isnt always the best.

Otherwise we'd all be driving around in Model T's with 'Type R' badges, spinner rims, One recaro seat, and a supercharger on the original low compression motor. What? Patching is always the solution right?

 

 

 

ps. you're right, the tone in this thread is quite negative and acidic, but thats because while we're offering solid reasons for microsofts practices, you refuse to compromise on your stance. Its frustrating, is all. Why ask, if you already know? Why try to teach, if you know its going to be against the norm? Just an observation.

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Just a few points to make Melkor, a little off topic, but it would bug me.

 

- XP-x64 was not microsofts fault. Microsoft are NOT responsible for drivers. Thats the 3rd party. Its like saying VW are responsible for AUDI because they use VW drivetrains. Nope.

 

- Updates are ALWAYS clearly defined as security and stability updates, not compatability updates, so unfortunately, if you read the documentation well you'd have seen that.

 

- New OS' isnt there solely for money. If you kept upgrading XP, you'd eventually have 'support' for 486, through to my future made up 'Super CPU Over9000 chip'. THe OS would be HUGE, patch ridden, with hundredw of 'micro versions'. Some core files arent actually patchable while in use (even at boot). Sometimes, such as the case from 32bit to 64bit, its easier to go to a new OS, better designed than to try and staple on a new 'patch'.

 

and finally a question; why so much love for XP? Why do you think its 'popular'? Its only popular because it had a long run. If it was purely stability and software support, they'd have NEVER upgraded from Win2k. Generally speaking all XP apps run fine on Win2k, hell, most even on NT 4.0. Only the gaming industry demanded XP for better DirectX support and memory management.

 

 

Finally, your statement

I don't really give a rats ass about Microsoft. Nor any other big business for that matter.

is all well and good.

Don't use their products. Can I come use your lawnmower? Not pay to borrow it? Damage it? and expect you to repair it, and not care if I did it in the first place?

I'm no fan of 'big business' either. But there is a limit.

Little joey down the road pirating Windows is a moral 'meh' to me personally, he can do what he wants. However when a decision makes or breaks a company, and thousands of other companies that depend on them, I can respect their decision. Patching old shit isnt always the best.

Otherwise we'd all be driving around in Model T's with 'Type R' badges, spinner rims, One recaro seat, and a supercharger on the original low compression motor. What? Patching is always the solution right?

 

 

 

ps. you're right, the tone in this thread is quite negative and acidic, but thats because while we're offering solid reasons for microsofts practices, you refuse to compromise on your stance. Its frustrating, is all. Why ask, if you already know? Why try to teach, if you know its going to be against the norm? Just an observation.

 

I have my eye on you ! Coming on here talking sense, you be careful..................................

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Yes, some people do pay for their software. I have legitimate versions of Photoshop CS2, CS6, Capture 1 Pro v5.x, Maxim DL, Paintshop pro x2 & Photomatrix. I also use open source software from time to time, and Canon's proprietary DPP. I plan to buy lightroom 4 down the track when funds allow.

 

 

I don't really give a rats ass about Microsoft. Nor any other big business for that matter.

So how much did you pay for photoshop?

 

Just under $700 for a full windows retail version.

 

Dave

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Yes, I realise that XP 64 was not totally Microsoft's fault. But - Microsoft has a lot of pull in the industry, and they didn't exactly make much of an attempt to garner support from the rest of the industry. Plus, let's be very realistic here - very few people had 64 bit capable systems. At the time, Linux was also moving into 64 bit and provided a far more stable product too [than XP x64] imho. I've long argued the same reasons and defences in regards to GNU/Linux. I'm quite positive that if Microsoft ported MS Office to Linux (and it worked reliably) usage of the Windows Operating system would drop by a fair bit. Of course, we are now seeing this with OS X increasing it's market share (although I admit to disliking Apple far more than Microsoft to be entirely honest).

 

Yes, I know updates are clearly defined as security and stability etc. My comments were a snide remark on proprietary software's attitudes of let's not support the product so we can force new dodgy software onto the masses ;-) And of course, make more money.

 

Not quite true - the Linux kernel supports a very large amount of hardware, more so than Windows does out of the box. It's not bloated. Microsoft has long been renowned for writing bloatware. I'd hate to see Microsoft's hello world ;-)

 

I'm a GNU/Linux guy at heart. I use Microsoft because in many instances, I'm forced to by proprietary software in order to get a particular thing done.

 

If you'd read my various posts, you'd see that XP was there as far as I was concerned for backwards compatibility with older software applications, and also as a redundancy o/s on a physical disk, as opposed to a vm. A vm on my main system that has a hard drive fail is of no use to me. BTW, I don't dislike VMs, I use them on my MBP, and I use them at work day in and day out (I help maintain our servers, vmware infrastructure and veeam backups). I quite like vmware, but it's not always the best choice for all circumstances, or all users. If you'd also bothered to read my various posts, you would have seen that Windows 7 x64 was going to be my primary o/s. XP was there for a rainy day. The Debian install was there to do things that Windows doesn't natively support. And sometimes, I just like to boot into Debian! I could (and do) do lots of Debian stuff from a vm, and my current PC which is being problematic (hence my PC upgrade) has vms of debian, solaris, freebsd on it. If it's something quick, I'll fire up vmplayer. If it's more of an enjoyment thing, I'll boot into Debian proper. I've long had multi boot operating systems (harking back to the late 90s and lilo). I guess I'm a bit old fashioned in that respect. To each their own.

 

And I think you misunderstood me re: piracy. I am firmly against piracy. I pay for all of my software, including some very expensive software. I also buy all my DVDs, Blu rays and music. Sadly, many of today's youth (and even older people) believe pirating software, music & movies is a right. And yes, I firmly understand that that damages the software company and the economy. That said, much software is vastly overpriced imho. Many software companies are plain greedy.

 

Many who have replied to this thread have misinterpreted my intentions with XP. I have simple goals, and want to achieve them to have the system in the way that I envisage it. Implying that I'm deluded is not going to endear me! I have reasons for the way that I want to deploy this system, and I asked a simple question to bounce some ideas off what I was thinking. That didn't really require a lecture on not using XP x32 bit.

 

All good, I'm pretty thick skinned and I know most of you mean well by your comments on XP 32 bit. I'm a bit hampered by not having played with recent hardware developments and I haven't really made a real effort to investigate them in depth like I would have done years ago. That's my fault really. And I didn't read the manual for the motherboard bios in its entirety - that's my stupidity and I deserve egg on my face for that. I'm getting on a bit and older people don't always learn new things quickly, or very well, and we don't always like change ;-) so humour this old fuddy duddy a bit ;-)

 

peace

 

Dave

 

 

Just a few points to make Melkor, a little off topic, but it would bug me.

 

- XP-x64 was not microsofts fault. Microsoft are NOT responsible for drivers. Thats the 3rd party. Its like saying VW are responsible for AUDI because they use VW drivetrains. Nope.

 

- Updates are ALWAYS clearly defined as security and stability updates, not compatability updates, so unfortunately, if you read the documentation well you'd have seen that.

 

- New OS' isnt there solely for money. If you kept upgrading XP, you'd eventually have 'support' for 486, through to my future made up 'Super CPU Over9000 chip'. THe OS would be HUGE, patch ridden, with hundredw of 'micro versions'. Some core files arent actually patchable while in use (even at boot). Sometimes, such as the case from 32bit to 64bit, its easier to go to a new OS, better designed than to try and staple on a new 'patch'.

 

and finally a question; why so much love for XP? Why do you think its 'popular'? Its only popular because it had a long run. If it was purely stability and software support, they'd have NEVER upgraded from Win2k. Generally speaking all XP apps run fine on Win2k, hell, most even on NT 4.0. Only the gaming industry demanded XP for better DirectX support and memory management.

 

 

Finally, your statement

I don't really give a rats ass about Microsoft. Nor any other big business for that matter.

is all well and good.

Don't use their products. Can I come use your lawnmower? Not pay to borrow it? Damage it? and expect you to repair it, and not care if I did it in the first place?

I'm no fan of 'big business' either. But there is a limit.

Little joey down the road pirating Windows is a moral 'meh' to me personally, he can do what he wants. However when a decision makes or breaks a company, and thousands of other companies that depend on them, I can respect their decision. Patching old shit isnt always the best.

Otherwise we'd all be driving around in Model T's with 'Type R' badges, spinner rims, One recaro seat, and a supercharger on the original low compression motor. What? Patching is always the solution right?

 

 

 

ps. you're right, the tone in this thread is quite negative and acidic, but thats because while we're offering solid reasons for microsofts practices, you refuse to compromise on your stance. Its frustrating, is all. Why ask, if you already know? Why try to teach, if you know its going to be against the norm? Just an observation.

 

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Well, have modified the RAM timings (never needed to do this before, so it's entirely alien and new to me - and I don't mind admitting intimidating). Couldn't find the north bridge memory controller voltage option, memory controller voltage (memory agent) as per description from Corsair. Anyone have an idea where they are and what they are called in the current Gigabyte UEFI bios?

 

And, the testing with the modified settings as per Corsair (10/11/10/30, 1.65v for dram voltage, command rate 2T, memory set to 13.33 multiplier (i.e. 1333mhz)) isn't good - errors almost immediately, and errors where it wasn't erroring before. Not encouraging. I've opened a support ticket with Gigabyte last night, but haven't heard anything back from them. Modified that ticket just now to include the above question. I'll give them another 24 hours before I say enough is enough and return the RAM as faulty to the supplier. Which reminds me, I need to check Umart's RMA process. I don't want to stuff around, I simply want to return the RAM as faulty and get a replacement set (different ram). Anyone got experience with Umart's customer service/rma process?

 

Dave

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Well, have modified the RAM timings (never needed to do this before, so it's entirely alien and new to me - and I don't mind admitting intimidating). Couldn't find the north bridge memory controller voltage option, memory controller voltage (memory agent) as per description from Corsair. Anyone have an idea where they are and what they are called in the current Gigabyte UEFI bios?

 

And, the testing with the modified settings as per Corsair (10/11/10/30, 1.65v for dram voltage, command rate 2T, memory set to 13.33 multiplier (i.e. 1333mhz)) isn't good - errors almost immediately, and errors where it wasn't erroring before. Not encouraging. I've opened a support ticket with Gigabyte last night, but haven't heard anything back from them. Modified that ticket just now to include the above question. I'll give them another 24 hours before I say enough is enough and return the RAM as faulty to the supplier. Which reminds me, I need to check Umart's RMA process. I don't want to stuff around, I simply want to return the RAM as faulty and get a replacement set (different ram). Anyone got experience with Umart's customer service/rma process?

 

Dave

Not sure why you have been stuffing around ! If one fault is picked up in a stick with memtest, the stick is faulty. If you tested one stick at a time as you were advised to do, you should have discovered which sticks were faulty in about one hour. You then return the faulty sticks simple really.,

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Once again bullet points.

 

Memtest found errors, the ram is faulty, replace it. no exceptions. Its FUCKED.

 

Windows X64 was completely stable, just as stable as XP 32bit.

I dont know what you're on about. Also MOST people had 64 compatible systems. What WASNT compatible early on was peripherals. printers, scaners, etc.

 

Microsoft NEVER garners support for hardware, its not their field. You should be attacking the big name peripherals guys. HP, Canon, and ATI. They just didn't step up and so lost out on early 64bit adoption. Nothing MS did wrong. and when they realised lots of RAM was now the norm, they made windows 7 with better memory management. Somethign you coudlnt patch XP to do, as its built into the kernel.

 

Linux and office, I don't know what you're smoking, but the Microsoft Office suite has been the MOST compatible of all WINE apps. Its been, in my experience, completely flawless under WINE for many many years. So your microsoft office point IMO has no ground to stand on.

 

 

You can't call microsoft greedy. 10 years, for $100ish bucks is IMO great value. (you build your own PCs so you use OEM of course). not only that, but now that everyone basically HAS TO go to x64, they CONTINUE to use their staffs time and effort on security patches. How generous is that?! They could have completely dumped it when 7 came out. Now we have 8, and we STILL get support. What do you expect for $100 over 10 years, what for you makes it good value?!?

 

As for running XP, and you have no problems with VM, install a light weight linux on your spare drive, and VM XP on that. There, redundancy and XP like you want. But if you can get a copy of XP Longhorn, the drivers are there now. Its the minimum you SHOULD run. Even for redundancy.

 

 

As for umart, I hope you're not in Brisbane. Ive had to return 3 things, and all 3 times it resulted in being called a liar, asked to leave, and once an off duty cop who was buying stuff informed them of my consumer rights. Ive never been in and out in less than 2 hours for an RMA with them.

 

This is the opposite for most states, but in SE QLD, the MSY staff, especially morningside are geeks like us, they understand. Stock is lower, but prices and service is better

 

Good luck with the RMA.

Edited by Master_Scythe

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Yea Master_Scythe, I was a long standing customer at umart Brisbane and spent big money there over the years. They no longer get my business either, and now that we have an MSY up my way I no longer have to travel to MSY in Brisbane.

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I had issues once with ram, I double it from 2 x 2 to 4 x 2. bsod. popped into bios, pressed f10 and made sure my board was readign the ram correctly. checked that the auto numbers came up as per the packet. launched. no problem.

 

if you get BSOD in win 7, get the code and google (or your preferred find engine) it. very informative stuff those codes.

 

why not compatability mode for old applications in Win 7. It has been my experience that win 7 64bit has been more stable and has better management and reporting of errors than win xp.

 

lastly of the win XP market segment. my work still run XP, it uses a global load set. which means over 100,000 units run xp and will do for a few months but will then roll on to Win 7. all the old boxes will go on greys online with vista installs. means I get to say good by to IE7 at work.

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I had issues once with ram, I double it from 2 x 2 to 4 x 2. bsod. popped into bios, pressed f10 and made sure my board was readign the ram correctly. checked that the auto numbers came up as per the packet. launched. no problem.

 

if you get BSOD in win 7, get the code and google (or your preferred find engine) it. very informative stuff those codes.

 

why not compatability mode for old applications in Win 7. It has been my experience that win 7 64bit has been more stable and has better management and reporting of errors than win xp.

 

lastly of the win XP market segment. my work still run XP, it uses a global load set. which means over 100,000 units run xp and will do for a few months but will then roll on to Win 7. all the old boxes will go on greys online with vista installs. means I get to say good by to IE7 at work.

IE 7 ! /shudders. Slowly it will go to the hell it so richly deserves !

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Just an update, I returned the original RAM (Umart gave me no problems) and got some slightly slower Corsair RAM (1600) instead. Tests perfectly fine in the new machine, not a single error. Haven't done much more with the system o/s wise.

 

Dave

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1 more update - I have abandoned trying to get Windows XP 32 bit running in AHCI mode - it just is not do-able. Installs OK in IDE mode, but even then installing the drivers and rebooting and changing bios from IDE to AHCI gives you a BSOD. Since new motherboards stupidly lack support for a FDD, and Windows XP doesn't support USB sticks during install, it's a nogoer. Furthermore, I have tried to slipstream both SP3 and the 32 bit drivers for the C606 and Marvell chipsets for this motherboard without luck - it seems I get the infamous unable to find iastorA.sys error, despite loading the 32 bit drivers for AHCI via slipstreaming. It seems that I am not alone in this issue, and a few people have tried and given up. 1 German guy managed to get it going with a v3 irst driver that was modified by another user on the same forums, but the download links are all dead. It's simply not worth the hassle. From what I've been able to research, it seems that Intel does not support AHCI drivers for Windows XP 32 bit (but does for 64 bit) - stupid. That's like saying modern CPUs should be 64 bit only, and the modern operating systems should not support 32 bit applications. It's nice to see manufacturers remove our ability to exercise our rights to install software that we paid for. Furthermore reason for hating the proprietary computing systems that abound today.

 

I'll go with Debian Squeeze on the 120gb SSD and Windows 7 on the 240GB SSD and have to live with that. I may do a virtualisation of XP on the Windows 7 platform at a later date, but it detracts from my original goals.

 

That's it for my rant, thanks everyone for your help.

 

Dave

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Yes ! How dare MS have a 12 year old operating system that wont support modern hardware ! You would think they planned it that hey ?

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it seems that Intel does not support AHCI drivers for Windows XP 32 bit (but does for 64 bit) - stupid.

Actually they do I have had several PCs running XP with AHCI with no dramas. Most where done with the F6 floppy on install method but a couple of post install changes where done with the registry hack method.

It's just your mobo does not appear to have XP AHCI drivers at all so if you want modern hardware to run you have to use a modern OS.

 

 

 

Yes ! How dare MS have a 12 year old operating system that wont support modern hardware ! You would think they planned it that hey ?

Now now bowiee stop talking sense. :P

And I am still puzzled over the VM resistance.

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And I am still puzzled over the VM resistance.

XP would only be a fall back system, not intended for daily usage.

And some legacy stuff.

 

If you can get stuff like SW:KOTOR from 2003 running under W7 with compatability set to XP SP1.... I can only think Melkor has found native to show more stability than compatability or VM.

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And I am still puzzled over the VM resistance.

XP would only be a fall back system, not intended for daily usage.

And some legacy stuff.

 

If you can get stuff like SW:KOTOR from 2003 running under W7 with compatability set to XP SP1.... I can only think Melkor has found native to show more stability than compatability or VM.

 

Well I have had no stability issues with VMWare player, heck with the VM tools it even has native VGA acceleration for gaming.

I also don't get the

I have some legacy stuff that I would prefer to run natively inside XP, and not in a VM

because the software is running natively in a VM because you install your OS in to the VM. A VM is not an emulation layer like Wine.

As for fallback what for FFS? If the other OS carks it then use a live CD to access your files or restore from a recent disk image or backup. Persisting with trying to get an old and outdated OS to run on modern and unsupported hardware is not only an exercise in frustration it is plain bloody stupid IMO.

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you can put ahci support into an nlite install if its REALLY that important.

Well, the driver disk from Gigabyte explicitly says 32 bit folders for ahci, so I would have presumed that it was supported. I think some of the earlier versions of the driver from Intel were 32 bit, but then Intel changed its mind. I've come across several other people trying to get 32 bit XP installed on x79/c606 chipsets, so I'm not the only one. And yes, I tried nlite slipstreaming to no avail. Cool tool though (I'd never played with it before). I kept getting the iastorA.sys error during install. Said motherboard doesn't support a floppy disk drive, and XP doesn't support USB during install.

 

I've actually given up on XP - it's silly that one can't choose to install their operating system, but I'm over it.

 

Dave

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And I am still puzzled over the VM resistance.

XP would only be a fall back system, not intended for daily usage.

And some legacy stuff.

 

If you can get stuff like SW:KOTOR from 2003 running under W7 with compatability set to XP SP1.... I can only think Melkor has found native to show more stability than compatability or VM.

 

Yes, true. I do like Doom 95 (hey, I"m from that era!!!) and Daggerfall from time to time. I'm not adverse to VMs either - I do actually use them. It's just nice to have a secondary physical operating system to go back to in event of a hardware failure with your primary drive o/s etc. Virtualisation itself is not a great form of redundancy from my experience, especially if a result of a hardware failure. I use vSphere and ESXi 5 and veeam 6 day to day in my work btw.

 

I have another issue now, one that is perplexing but will post that in the Linux section. I was working on it late last night, on a tired brain, so will have another quick look at that problem tonight when I get home from work.

 

Dave

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