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DOTA 2: out of Beta

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I've played a tinsee-tiny bit of DOTA. I played a little more LoL. I know enough that I enjoy these games.

 

Reading reviews of DOTA2 shows a game of massive potential.

 

I'm game to give it a go. So. Onto Steam to download.

 

However, what I'd really like is to find some friends I can learn with. (May play with/against in future. But for now. LEARN!)

 

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I've been having a go here and there since they added in the tutorial. It seems a fairly decent tutorial, though I don't really like the WC3ish first few steps that don't really feel like a MOBA at all. I would of thought they'd slap some human vs bots in there too before the human vs human step of it, but I guess they don't really want people falling into the LoL comfort zone of only ever playing against bots.

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Tried Heroes. Didn't like it overly much. Felt like 'pay to win'.

 

The thing I do like about DOTA2 is their marketing model.

Nothing you purchase influences gameplay.

No purchasble heroes. You get all heroes from day dot.

No purchasble items which have an ingame effect beyond cosmetic.

 

The sell cosmetic items and the like. They also sell tickets to watch the big international tournaments and get commentators in.

 

So. You could say my opinion is:

All of these DOTA-esque games are the same, I just prefer the marketing model of DOTA2.

 

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Ive played seriously since 2004.

 

I put a minimum 4 hours into practicing every day since then, only missing days for very special events. (or IRL stuff, I'm not like a WoW addict, life still comes first :P)

 

If you want some tips, I can give you some. My girlfriend needs to practice more too; she's been doing tutorials and bot matches for about 4 months now, so she's almost ready for public games; low tier mind you.

So I might be able to arrange some voice chat games for tutoring multiple people at once.

 

The biggest things to learn are:

1. the expected 'jobs' of the hero you like.

So say, Axe will be expected to initiate, KOTL will be expected to ward and get a Pipe, etc

I dont follow many conventions personally, but thats because an unexpected strat by an experienced player can really shake up the enemy team.

 

2. The enemies skills.

There are times when being on 5HP isnt a time to run for your life. For example, as Huskar, at below 10% HP, you have 98% magic resist. So nothing can kill you if they're a caster. You'll likely auto attack them to death before they realise and auto attck back rather than cast.

Or if Dazzle drops shallow grave on you, and you wont escape. fight on.

Or if You KNOW you're going to die, go out swinging, not running.

 

3. Which skills can help your team, even though they seem a buff\debuff.

For example, bloodseeker dumps extra damage on you. This is good on someone like, well, himself, or Huskar, or Baratharum (spirit breaker, now).

HOWEVER it also silences for the entire duration. So you can drop extra damage on casters or stunners and watch them flail about with 30dmg auto attacks whilt they die.

 

4. Positioning.

Learning tower ranges, what trees hide you from sight, and what dont (land height), which trees to 'eat' (heal) to make secret paths behind enemies.

Standing where AOE spells wont stop the whole team.

 

 

 

You dont really need to know it all before playing, but you do need to 'get the jist' of it.

The DOTA community is an abusive prick of a group. They troll, they abuse, they hold no punches at all.

And most are completely retarded when it comes to planning; so if you've died 5 times, because the support failed at their job (mentioned above), its YOUR fault for dying, not their fault when you expected a heal mid fight.

 

 

The difference between DOTA and LoL is that lol is VERY locked in. A tank hero cant become a caster, a caster cant tank well, and so on.

In DOTA, after 10 minutes, you can build unexpected heroes.

 

I play AXE mainly. When he comes at you with a Dagon5, Shivas Guard, Necromicon, and Urn of Shadows, you're suddenly wondering where the fuck 7 or so spells just came from, when the only person nearby is the main tank\melee initiator. lol.

 

hurry up and finish, work! I'm in the mood to hunt some noobs now.... lol.

Edited by Master_Scythe

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hehehe. I actually spent a bit of time reading and trying to learn.

I started by looking at Purge's walkthroughs. He admits he is not a pro, but his lessons are easy to understand and give you the basics required to at least have a good chance in a noob game.

I then picked a few heroes. Lion, Tidehunter, and Windrunner. I then watched lots of pros play those games to see how they did it. I tried not to stick too much with 1 player and their playstyle. I felt it would be worthwhile getting tips for about 10 players than 1 player.

 

So, I'm now in tutorial mode and working my way through. I'm using it as "Control familiarity training" at the moment. I still need to learn the items. Really learn them. I have a rough idea, but still a long way to go.

 

However, one thing I do want to bounce off you.

I often do something like get 2-3 ironwoods (Or whatever they are called). The 63gold +1 all attribute items early on. (As well as tango and healing salve. And courier normally)

 

One thing I rarely see in the plays of the game is what the pros do when they start with this. Do they upgrade them to something else? Do they sell them? How the hell do they sell them so quickly? It's like BAM gone. Am I missing them travelling past a store/secret shop or something?

 

So yeah.

 

Enjoying game, but I feel that I have a long way to go with controls. I will often spend about 15 - 20 seconds in store trying to work out what next, then another 5 moving the item to courier and getting courier to run/fly at me.

 

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^ This.

 

Also, learn how to last hit & deny. Don't get caught out of position or over extend. Especially if you don't know where the enemy is. If you have room, always carry a TP Scroll.

 

I've only put about 160 off hours into it but regularly play with some pretty decent guys. I know what I'm supposed to do, but often have a hard time putting it all together in the heat of the moment.

 

I prefer to play carries. Drow Ranger, Outworld Destroyer, Riki, Phantom Lancer, Skeleton King. If not, then I'll play initiators, like Sand King or Tide Hunter.

 

Add me on Steam if you like.

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Been practicing last hit and deny like nothing else. :P

 

I tend to get about 50% LH and about 30% Deny against bot in tutorial. Aware that it's different vs human. But I guess it means I'm getting there.

 

However, I still do the noob thing occassionally and use a skill for the hitting. But I suppose it's because I'm trying to push too early. It works, but because it takes so long against a bot, I'm guessing it would be suicide against a human. Need to turtle more.

 

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Ironwoods go into a Mekanism (headress of rejuv + Buckler) but thats about all.

 

It depends on the hero you have, whether or not they're worth buying. In a bot game, I'd say no.

For example, say you're playing Rikimaru (Stealth Assassin), and you lane with... say... alchemist (longest Lv1 stun in game).

 

You would learn backstab first. (passive: bonus dmg based on agility)

The plan would be to charge alchemists stun off screen, throw it as you run in, and hit for early game big dmg.

 

So in this scenario, you'd go:

Slippers of Agility (150)

Slippers of Agility (150)

Healing Salve (100)

Tango (90)

Ironwood (53) <- not 63 like you said.

 

HOWEVER, with the same hero, with say, Omniknight in lane, you'd get blink first, for burst dmg, and omninight can then 'purify' (heal) you, doing AOE damage to things around you.

This will leave you in a dangerous spot once this has happened, so in this scenario, you'd get:

 

Buckler (250)

Slippers of Agility (150)

Tango (90)

Tango (90)

Clarity (50)

 

You'd give the clarity to Omniknight for the heals, and rely on tangos to keep you healed while he regens. He has no mana early game.

The buckler will become a Poor mans Shield with your next slippers (available at side shop), and so on and so forth.

 

 

 

As for where they're selling unexpectedly....Side shop? or people usually just dump the on the ground.

Could also be handing them to the courier as it drops stuff off, and having the courier sell them?

 

Been practicing last hit and deny like nothing else. :P

 

I tend to get about 50% LH and about 30% Deny against bot in tutorial. Aware that it's different vs human. But I guess it means I'm getting there.

 

However, I still do the noob thing occassionally and use a skill for the hitting. But I suppose it's because I'm trying to push too early. It works, but because it takes so long against a bot, I'm guessing it would be suicide against a human. Need to turtle more.

 

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Phantom assassin shold always use her Dagger for last hits.

If you're a melee hero, forget denies when you're new, they'll lose you WAYYYY too much HP to be worth it.

get a ranged to do it, or just call for early game ganks.

 

 

EDIT: One big thing, if you get focused by a tower, you can force attack ANY friendly creep and the tower agro will drop. Doesnt matter if the creep isnt denyable, so it looks like your hero does nothing. It will drop the agro.

Edited by Master_Scythe

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Yeah. 53. Typo'd. I remembered the +3 is 150 and that 3 x Ironwoods are 159.

 

I suppose it's just a different strategy. I see many pros go with your build idea. I've also seen them go the 2 - 3 ironwoods. I guess I prefer the spread because it means I can build a slightly different way if the situation demands.

 

However, 90% of it is because I don't know how items upgrade yet. As such, I can't pre-plan very well. I do know about the 'click the item in the upgrade tab and see what is required and buy from that', but that doesn't help me start of game, because many of the first items are out of budget.

 

I just try to keep in lane and last hitting as long as possible to get the XP and gold up. As far as beginner strategies go, it's not too bad. Better than trying to run back to base all the time to heal/mana up.

 

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Tried Heroes. Didn't like it overly much. Felt like 'pay to win'.

 

The thing I do like about DOTA2 is their marketing model.

Nothing you purchase influences gameplay.

No purchasble heroes. You get all heroes from day dot.

No purchasble items which have an ingame effect beyond cosmetic.

 

The sell cosmetic items and the like. They also sell tickets to watch the big international tournaments and get commentators in.

 

So. You could say my opinion is:

All of these DOTA-esque games are the same, I just prefer the marketing model of DOTA2.

 

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wait, what in HoN gives you an advantage if you spend money on it? I cant think of 1 thing that is pay to win.

The only thing for sale are announcers and alternate skins. Ya cant buy heroes or power ups or anything. Nothing you can buy influences game play in your favour

 

I think you may be thinking of a different game

Edited by xnatex

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Has it alway been like that?

 

I just have this memory of heroes you needed to buy.

 

I do know that LoL and DOTA1 had that, which is why I stopped playing them. Might help to know that HoN was the first of these I tried and learnt a valuable lesson about trolls.

 

HoN, I played about 3 - 4 games and knew it pissed me off. Then I made the mistake of asking a question in the forum I believe was my main issue. That's a way to say "F#$K THIS!" and not go back. Appropriate forum. Newbie question which I had tried about 5 or 6 different searches for and couldn't find. Can't remember question. I remember the "LEARN TO SEARCH NOOBZOR!" replies. Replied once with a "I'm still too new to know the correct search terms."

 

I know DOTA and LoL have the same issue. I just learnt not to deal with it in first place.

 

Newbie forums are for people which have played at least 100 hrs. Not less.

 

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DOTA1 didnt.

 

DOTA1 was identical to DOTA2 in how it played. No way to jack up a win.

 

LoL allowed you to 'buy a hero' and buy upgrades for it. HON didnt, and nether did DOTA. ever.

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Has it alway been like that?

 

I just have this memory of heroes you needed to buy.

 

I do know that LoL and DOTA1 had that, which is why I stopped playing them. Might help to know that HoN was the first of these I tried and learnt a valuable lesson about trolls.

 

HoN, I played about 3 - 4 games and knew it pissed me off. Then I made the mistake of asking a question in the forum I believe was my main issue. That's a way to say "F#$K THIS!" and not go back. Appropriate forum. Newbie question which I had tried about 5 or 6 different searches for and couldn't find. Can't remember question. I remember the "LEARN TO SEARCH NOOBZOR!" replies. Replied once with a "I'm still too new to know the correct search terms."

 

I know DOTA and LoL have the same issue. I just learnt not to deal with it in first place.

 

Newbie forums are for people which have played at least 100 hrs. Not less.

 

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There used to be an option to buy a hero before it got released to the general public. You would get a few weeks on that hero before everyone else but thats been gone for a while now. Even that is hardly pay to win cuz its just usually 1 hero at a time that eventually everyone can use anyway after the "early access" period runs out

Edited by xnatex

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Pretty sure when HoN came out, accounts were about $20 and you paid to unlock heroes.

 

In LoL you paid for skins, there are no pay to win upgrades as suggested. There are runes and masteries which are unlocked as your summoner level increases, but these can't be purchased with riot points. The newest heroes always seem a little bit OP for a few weeks, so they make a lot of sales, but the heroes are rotated weekly so you don't need to buy anyone.

 

DotA you can just have any hero any game, the balance comes more from player skill than anything, as it's much easier to get/maintain a lead than in LoL for example.

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That's probably what I was thinking of, and probably did NOT understand. I saw heroes you could buy and all these people lashing out on them. I probably didn't have a concept then of "Early access" heroes. Makes sense now..

 

As for DOTA. I played about 1 game of it. Don't know why it didn't hook me. It probably should have. (Please keep in mind that this is YEARS ago. I've passed a lot of water since then). I have a memory of seeing question marks on various hero spots and being confused as all buggery by it. It's a game that felt polished, and I felt like that because I came in so late I'd never have a chance.

 

LoL I actually stuck out for a while. Enough to earn enough points to 'buy' GangPlank (My favourite hero at the time). Played him, and got 'ok' at him. Advanced noob level. But then it just started to wear thin. Every other week a new hero was released. Sometimes OP'd and scaled back. Sometimes weak as, and scaled up, and everything was always in a state of flux.

 

I'm enjoying DOTA2 because although it's "Identical" it feels like I'm getting in at ground level. Always a pleasant feeling. Perhaps once the honeymoon wears off, I'll be good enough that I can enjoy it against trolls regardless.

 

/end ramble.

 

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Just watched a high level match. Good grief! That was crazy. It was neck and neck until level 10. Pretty much no first bloods. Then suddenly 1 death and it was like watching a collapse. Was all it took. 1 hero making a mistake, at the end the highest level radiance was equal to the lowest level dire. The highest level dire had 6 levels above that.

 

I didn't even get to see the mistake. It happened somewhere else and it was just BOOM! Done.

 

Cool. :P

 

BTW. I could *probably* work this out myself. One thing I saw happen quite a few times is lots of 'aborted attacks'. The only way to describe it was the hero drew back, drew back, drew back, drew back *release* last hit.

 

I've seen this a few times.

 

How do you do this? So it was one attack initiated about 5 or 6 times and then suddenly released for Last Hit. Looks like a handy skill to have.

 

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They're spamming S to stop the attack animation finishing. It's sort of an more elegant way of last hitting rather then running around like a headless chicken till the last second.

 

LoL isn't really pay 2 win, it's more pay 2 get out of a giant grind. Everything there is locked behind a time wall. Heroes, rune pages, runes, summoners level etc. All things you need to play the game, but don't have to buy if you're happy wasting weeks grinding.

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Pretty sure when HoN came out, accounts were about $20 and you paid to unlock heroes.

Nah, when it came out and you paid $20 you got a full account and all heroes. If you wanted to play for free you could get a rotating roster of free heroes and had to earn the rest either through ingame silver or gold. It was similar to the LoL system but it didnt last too long and they just gave everything for free.

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They're spamming S to stop the attack animation finishing.

Animation cancelling - pro strat :)

 

I think the best thing to do AccessDenied is to play all the heroes a couple of times and find a set that you like.

 

If you like dishing out bulk DPS then go for Carries. If you like to smash creep waves and towers, choose a Pusher. If you like doing mass damage choose a Nuker. If you love to help the team, choose support.

 

Once you have your 4 - 8 heroes you like. Learn what their role in the game is. What they should be doing and when, but most importantly, why. There is a huge amount of meta game in DotA. So much goes on in the backgound, when you peel back the layers, it get very complex.

 

Anyway. Once you've know the purpose of your favourite heroes, learn their standard skill and item order. Look at some guide online (try DotaFire? - I think that's what it's called). Although the standard suggested ingame items are usually a good start. Once you het a handle on all this, you can start to learn how to play your hero. The combination of skills / spell uses and positioning that will help you come out on top.

 

You'll also learn which lane you should start off in, and what allied heroes you should stick with to complement your heroes skill set.

 

I wouldn't worry to much about playing bot games or training matches. Just jump on a play some pubs. You'll soon get the idea of what's going on. If you're not sure where you should be or what to buy in the game, just ask your team. There is usually at least one person who will be willing to provide some advice. Ingame voice comms make it a lot easier too :)

Edited by Electr0

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Yeah. I'm doing the tutorials at the moment. Deciding to do the lot (And there are a lot). But I'm making sure I never play the same hero twice whilst doing this to get a feel. I seem to be a magnet for melee heroes. I'm much better at ranged though. Doing the tutorial for mid lane push (Just destroy the 2 towers in mid lane), I took about 1/2 hr with melees (Tide hunter, dragon knight and a few others that I can't remember names of), then about 10 - 15 minutes with ranged (Sniper and Lion). Sniper I was fantastic with. The enemy bot hero didn't stand a chance. Would appear, get harrassed whilst I kept getting last hits, then if he tried to push, he died.

 

Was great fun..

 

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I wouldn't worry to much about playing bot games or training matches. Just jump on a play some pubs.

I dunno. Depends if you've made yourself a Toll account for steam. Last thing you want is losses on your permanent profile because you didnt train hard enough before beginning IMO.

 

(Tide hunter, dragon knight and a few others that I can't remember names of), then about 10 - 15 minutes with ranged (Sniper and Lion). Sniper I was fantastic with. The enemy bot hero didn't stand a chance. Would appear, get harrassed whilst I kept getting last hits, then if he tried to push, he died.

 

Was great fun..

 

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This is a trap to watch out for and something bots dont do. out-of-role ganking.

Sniper, for example, dies a LOT for a new player. As i mentioned, I play AXE a lot, and even I can gank a sniper if he shits me off just by buying a bottle of smoke.

 

Sniper becomes a hard carry, OR an effect carry (mana drain, slow, microstuns, etc). but he needs his team to protect him almost contantly, untill you get Shadow Blade and even then, if you have an inviz hero on your team, they'll have warded.

 

Tidehunter is actually a FANTASTIC noob hero, and incredibly useful to the team.

His Krakken shell ensures DoT's you take are lessened, he can take a hit, farms easily with Anchor Smash, and between Gush and Ravage, is immensely useful in team fights.

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Sniper I would put in a dual lane personally. But that's just me.

 

But was lots of fun to play.

 

Tide hunter is my favourite melee so far.

 

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