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Caelum

NBN - Is it too expensive?

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2 hours ago, Caelum said:

Mostly regarding study (video is a massive part of schooling these days) and entertainment

Tell me about it. What with FHD laptops provided by schools, needing FHD video at the huge bandwidth range of 5-8Mbps, you clearly need 100Mbps connections in every home.

Mate, we have a client running 400 F/HD security feeds over a 1Gbps TPG connection in a large shopping centre (the cameras have motion detection, so not all are transmitting all the time - maybe half to 2/3rds depending on the time, and bugger all at night).

2 hours ago, Caelum said:

You can fit *best case*, assuming future technologies are awesome, 1MHz-80,000GHz in a shared wireless medium

And just like CWDM in fibre, you can use lower-power transmitters to encompass fewer devices, and strategically place them to re-use spectrum without interference.

We have solved this for stadiums.

I've put this up before, but last year's SuperBowl, average 4G speeds for the fastest network (Verizon) were 30/10Mbps. There's 70,000 seats. That's a lot of density around a 100m x 100m field (or thereabouts).

If we can solve for stadiums, we can solve for a country where the highest population density in any area is 16,000 people in a square km.

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My time has come...

I rent a little flat underneath a house. The owner lives upstairs.

When I moved in back in 2012, I paid for HFC installation for Bigpond cable (which is what my current connection is)

However, I'm told that we only have one free NTD per address, and I'm hoping that because I'm the only customer on the HFC, that I can get it.

But when the landlady wants to migrate her Optus connection, she'll have to pay for an additional NTD ($300)

To be honest, I just want my own internet connection, and not have to share. Multiple customers could use the Telstra HFC simply by using a splitter and adding a new modem, so why is NBN different?

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6 hours ago, Leonid said:

We have solved this for stadiums.

 

Yep, i've done stadium jobs too. Not 4G in that case, but high density Wi-Fi. 

And yes, DAS systems and Microcells can definitely help in that regard. That doesn't mean there isn't noise, just that we can control it enough (usually only just) for it to work at its limits. 

Stadiums do have the advantage of basically being a big faraday cage though, so you can design them with almost an expectation of nothing buy background noise levels in the area, compared to the big wide world outside, like suburb/city scale infrastructure has to deal with. 

 

6 hours ago, Leonid said:

Tell me about it. What with FHD laptops provided by schools, needing FHD video at the huge bandwidth range of 5-8Mbps, you clearly need 100Mbps connections in every home.

No, not every home. eg, if i wasn't a heavy user (due to both personal and work requirements) i wouldn't need 100mbit. But 35Mbit is limiting what i'm able to do, particularly in my case due to the only 7MBit upload speed. 

So sure, lets say FHD video is 5-8MBit as you claim (super high compression there), and a kid needs to upload a video to either youtube or the schools online systems, then your internet is effectively unusable (in my example) until such video is uploaded. That's if you've got one kid. Sadly, there are many breeders in this world, so some families have more than one kid. Crazy, can't see why myself... but can't help some people. 

 

 

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5-8Mbps isn’t high compression. $150 basic security cameras do it on-chip 🙂

In addition, any home router will allocate traffic allowance to others if a YouTube upload is ongoing. That’s because it’s not multiple connections like torrenting is - and as such it’s quite ok.

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With adsl my wife's phone backing up video via Google photos used to kill our connection both ways til it was done. That is 1Mbps upload though. Just saying that typical cheap routers don't always manage bandwidth that well. 

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4 hours ago, Leonid said:

5-8Mbps isn’t high compression. $150 basic security cameras do it on-chip 🙂

 

Yep i've got plenty of those too. They're fucking high compression. 

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10 hours ago, smadge1 said:

My time has come...

I rent a little flat underneath a house. The owner lives upstairs.

When I moved in back in 2012, I paid for HFC installation for Bigpond cable (which is what my current connection is)

However, I'm told that we only have one free NTD per address, and I'm hoping that because I'm the only customer on the HFC, that I can get it.

But when the landlady wants to migrate her Optus connection, she'll have to pay for an additional NTD ($300)

To be honest, I just want my own internet connection, and not have to share. Multiple customers could use the Telstra HFC simply by using a splitter and adding a new modem, so why is NBN different?

Not  a situation I've seen, but NBN is wholesale so your carrier is the one to talk to.

I can't really see why it would be an issue but NBN in their FAQs are very vague about your having your own connection.

Seems analogous to cabling up a high-rise on a mini-scale, one connection in, sell ti out discretely to each business in the building.

I'd talk to your carrier but would be interested in what they come back with.

Cheers

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On 27/02/2019 at 4:42 PM, Leonid said:

Actually shorter copper is our solution.

In every test, running VDSL2 yields better performance than ADSL2+ over identical copper lengths.

Hell maybe the next NBN upgrade is VDSL3 with FTTC... or you know... wireless 🙂

That was a lot of work to come around and agree with what was said.

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9 hours ago, Caelum said:

Yep i've got plenty of those too. They're fucking high compression. 

Not any more. HEVC/h.265 can get you to half that.

There's a few in the industry with support, but it's fairly expensive still... and AV1 may make it redundant due to patent issues in h.265 and because AV1 is a further (up to) 20% higher compressed... don't know of any surveillance company with hardware on-chip AV1 encoding.

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Off and on we play around with security CCTV via a company that specialises in it in Perth.

Certainly a lot of activity in that area not just on compression but smarter means to burst detail on demand etc - big field with a lot to come I'd guess, H.265 is after all pretty old.

Been some years now but I was involved with video compression based on Cellular Automata Transforms for a while. It faltered through lack of funds but the original developer in the states is still working on it.

Cheers

 

 

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Posted (edited)

WTF

 

https://www.channelnews.com.au/government-to-fine-non-nbn-users-with-broadband-tax/

 

The Federal Government has reintroduced plans to tax non-NBN operated fixed-line services to fund future costs of the network alongside a bill that establishes the NBN Co as the default fixed-line operator in Australia.

Users of NBN-equivalent fixed-line services, both business and residential, will be smacked with a $7.10 monthly fee for the crime of not using the National Broadband Network.

 

 

Edited by Jeruselem

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57 minutes ago, Jeruselem said:

WTF

 

https://www.channelnews.com.au/government-to-fine-non-nbn-users-with-broadband-tax/

 

The Federal Government has reintroduced plans to tax non-NBN operated fixed-line services to fund future costs of the network alongside a bill that establishes the NBN Co as the default fixed-line operator in Australia.

Users of NBN-equivalent fixed-line services, both business and residential, will be smacked with a $7.10 monthly fee for the crime of not using the National Broadband Network.

 

 

A) this shouldn't at all be a surprise, it's been mooted for a while now

B) Fair bump.  Was this not worth a thread of its own?

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Yeah, it's because you CAN elect not to take up NBN right up until they cut you off as part of reducing support for the ageing copper.

 

I had a little note on it when I first moved in here but the copper was of no particular interest to me since I use mobile for all voice, So, had to accept HFC which is ok but retarded, they may as well have pulled fibre really.

 

The half-assed intent is to get all voice off the legacy copper but they wont ante up for FTTH or even FTTC.

 

Very, very short-sighted to the point of myopia but given how much the National Debt has blown out with Covid it is likely all we will get for decades.

 

I can't say I like the implications of 5G or whatever comes next but it maybe our best option

 

Cheers

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48 minutes ago, Nich... said:

A) this shouldn't at all be a surprise, it's been mooted for a while now

B) Fair bump.  Was this not worth a thread of its own?

 

The topic could have gone into another thread (government one) but it's all tied up with the NBN anyway.

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2 minutes ago, Jeruselem said:

 

The topic could have gone into another thread (government one) but it's all tied up with the NBN anyway.

There are more than 5 threads on Atomic.

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Might suck a bit for TransACT users.

Some services are sufficiently good that there's no point at all transferring.  I've encountered speeds anywhere from a pretty shitty ~ 17 mbps up to high 70s.

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To be it's a kick in the head for those on fixed services where you can't use or get NBN or NBN just sucks where they are.

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On 5/12/2020 at 2:34 PM, Jeruselem said:

To be it's a kick in the head for those on fixed services where you can't use or get NBN or NBN just sucks where they are.

 

It's worse than that. I work in a small ISP, that specialises in a few areas only. One of those is aged care villages/facilities (We primarily don't play in the retail sector at all, except for this).

We installed our equipment before NBNCo began operating services in the area, providing residents high speed internet access for (very) reasonable costs. Typically around 60% the cost of a comparable NBN plan. 

Because our technologies we use are similar (or in some cases identical) to what NBN provide, either through POTS phone lines (VDSL), Coax cables(HFC), or even Fibre optic cables(GPON), we're technically a provider of NBN-equivalent fixed line services, and will have to pay the fee. That means our service prices have to go up, without any benefit to the residents. 

NBN, in those areas, have over-built their services in parallel to our own pre-existing services. So our choices become: Change the technology we're using so it's not NBN-equivalent (and don't pay the fee), or we increase our price. It feels like if we increased our prices, we're giving in to NBN, which only costs the residents more (we can't absorb such an amount if we want to stay in profit). If we change tech, depending on what/how we did it, it may decrease the performance or reliability of the services we provide. Noting, that we provide not just internet services, but also phone services (which includes a local-to-facility service between residents and their admin offices/services such as security gate control systems). 

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Yeah Cael,

 

Have to admit I do not miss being out of the ISP scene all together now, those cost analyses had a habit of doing my head in.

 

From what I can read of the intent there is no option to "forgive" with aged care facilities which is somewhat criminal.

 

I really do not understand where the government thinks it is going with NBN although to be fair this Government has inherited the mess not created it but having to resort to this, which is almost blackmail, suggests the bloody thing is a loser that can't even break even.

 

What IT OUGHT to be is a service so compelling that people would be crying out to get it, in many cases anything but.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

They don't want to drop the NBN access charges because it would affect the value of entire NBN so the fuckwits tax people who don't use it.

Typical government conservatives thinking.

Edited by Jeruselem

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1 hour ago, Jeruselem said:

They don't want to drop the NBN access charges because it would affect the value of entire NBN so the fuckwits tax people who don't use it.

Typical government conservatives thinking.

🙂

 

They never costed the reality of doing the NBN in their half-assed fashion, if they had have they would not have had it be the lunacy it is and be , via upkeep cost, as expensive as it is.

 

I'm on HFC until I move and thinking seriously about where I move to so researching the fibre rollout maps but they seem to have difficulty actually updating them. Ironically I could well be better served moving to a lower density area outside the city proper. Upside - that would suit me fine  🙂

 

Cheers

 

 

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Posted (edited)

NBN and their stupid marketing terms

https://www.itnews.com.au/news/nbn-co-rebrands-up-to-gigabit-as-ultrafast-defined-as-500mbps-to-1gbps-539421

 

100/20 = Home Fast (also applies to slower connections)

250/25 = Home Superfast

1000/50 = Home Ultrafast (reality it's 500-1000 Mbps)

 

So

12/1 = Home F Slow

25/5 = Home Kinda Adequate

Edited by Jeruselem

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On 14/05/2020 at 7:07 PM, Jeruselem said:

They don't want to drop the NBN access charges because it would affect the value of entire NBN so the fuckwits tax people who don't use it.

Typical government conservatives thinking.

'Taxing people who don't use it' is how rural parts of Australia typically get enough funding, cross-subsidised by urban dwellers.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nich... said:

'Taxing people who don't use it' is how rural parts of Australia typically get enough funding, cross-subsidised by urban dwellers.

 

Some rural towns have had get in an alternative ISP (non-NBN) for their Internet fixed lines, which of course end up paying this tax.

Edited by Jeruselem

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1 hour ago, Jeruselem said:

 

Some rural towns have had get in an alternative ISP (non-NBN) for their Internet fixed lines, which of course end up paying this tax.

Yeah, that's the aspect I'm really unhappy with.  Companies rolling out services to fill black spots because NBN wrote off a community to Satellite or ADSL.

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