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Master_Scythe

What does Linux need to steal market share?

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My simple answer to this question is that the vast majority of people who work on a PC at least some of the time in their employment(about 99% of people), use Windows. They want a consistent experience across all of their computing.

 

To me, there seems to be little advantage in using Linux. I'm one of the majority who wants to just "use" my computer. I don't want to have to pfaff about with Linux and getting it all to work for what reason - it's free?

 

No thanks, I'll pay the money for Windows, load it up and off I go?

 

There may be other advantages to Linux, but they are not so apparent as to warrant making a change and then having to wrestle with it to make stuff work, or to seek out the alternatives that will.

 

No thanks!

You didn't answer the question , which was what can Linux do to increase market share.

 

Deliver a consistent user experience.

 

Yeh Thats an issue with having various distro's , so certainly not ready for mums and dads to pluck it off the shelf , but there is a bit of uptake going on in governance and institutional infrastructure , it works as a desktop there by virtue of IT and support staff.

Edited by Waltish

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Well I'm just going to throw this out there... Linux distros on desktop will never be successful. The open source culture is its own worst enemy. What can it do? Nothing. It's fundamentally flawed. The closest you will get is ChromeOS.

I dont know if you intend it, but you come off as "google is god" between this and android. lol

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Well I'm just going to throw this out there... Linux distros on desktop will never be successful. The open source culture is its own worst enemy. What can it do? Nothing. It's fundamentally flawed. The closest you will get is ChromeOS.

I dont know if you intend it, but you come off as "google is god" between this and android. lol

 

More like desktop is dying, and the future is Web. Google seem to be the only company that gets this.

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Due to the speed limits of even some first world countries (like us) I think its a long time before the desktop takes a real blow (assuming you mean laptops too).

Things like 3D, picture heavy documents, RAW photos, sensitive data, and so on, are just too slow to become cloud and web app focused.

 

I agree with the shift being there, but to me its one big guy (google) pushing against a giant brick wall. Other companies WERE helping but have backed off. Just an IMO, but fair enough, you point at least makes sense, lol.

Edited by Master_Scythe

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Guest xyzzy frobozz

Yeh Thats an issue with having various distro's , so certainly not ready for mums and dads to pluck it off the shelf , but there is a bit of uptake going on in governance and institutional infrastructure , it works as a desktop there by virtue of IT and support staff.

That's the thing.

 

If there's ever a point in time where more employers use it, and a "Killer app" distro comes out that becomes the de-facto standard, then maybe Linux will grow market share.

 

But something I'm not all that familiar with that someone here might be able to answer - what is the rough proportion of commercial users to home users of PCs in general. My gut says that there is more, and probably many more, commercial PCs out in the wild. Therefore, to grow market share one would think that you have to capture the commercial market and from there, installation might trickle-down to the home user who becomes familiar with it at work and decides to install it at home. I think it's much more difficult for it to go the other way, and I suspect that is happening at the moment - more home Linux users as a proportion of the user base than Windows.

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Yeh Thats an issue with having various distro's , so certainly not ready for mums and dads to pluck it off the shelf , but there is a bit of uptake going on in governance and institutional infrastructure , it works as a desktop there by virtue of IT and support staff.

That's the thing.

 

If there's ever a point in time where more employers use it, and a "Killer app" distro comes out that becomes the de-facto standard, then maybe Linux will grow market share.

 

But something I'm not all that familiar with that someone here might be able to answer - what is the rough proportion of commercial users to home users of PCs in general. My gut says that there is more, and probably many more, commercial PCs out in the wild. Therefore, to grow market share one would think that you have to capture the commercial market and from there, installation might trickle-down to the home user who becomes familiar with it at work and decides to install it at home. I think it's much more difficult for it to go the other way, and I suspect that is happening at the moment - more home Linux users as a proportion of the user base than Windows.

 

Not a statistician but I think any head count would be difficult to compile, and be an estimate at best, many peeps work from home these days , some folks take work home, some homes multiple PC/ Mac.

 

Even now there are more Linux installs in the wild than are counted peeps can be given it, get it of a magazine disc install it and that doest not show up in the stats, while commercial OS's can easily count sales, of course there are some pirate installs of commercial OS's which also serves to skew the count.

 

But yah more workplace Linux environments and thereby creating familiarity and competence with Linux,as well as peeps wanting to homogenise there home and work computing environments would have to have some amount of trickle down, maybe quite a bit, I have to agree that definitely getting more Linux into the commercial space would be good for market share.

Edited by Waltish

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Forget about increasing marketshare. It needs to try and hold on to marketshare since the Gnome 3 disaster.

 

I'm contemplating moving to Mac. If I have to use one of these fancy window managers, I may as well use one that's done properly.

 

Yeah yeah there are lots of choices, but I like a window manager that's tightly integrated with the OS and just works, not half-arsed attempts like the Fedora (which I prefer for desktop) spins.

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People want to press the on button and do their stuff. The mindset of many PC/Linux people is that a quick Google search will give the answer, but people don't want to tinker. They want it to just work. Granted, Windows doesn't "Just work" all the time, but it's pretty good at holding hands when everything is pre-installed from the factory. Add in how easy it is to add extra equipment like printers and headsets and you have a winner.

 

The manufacturers have to be on board, the OEMs have to push the OS and the Linux crowd has to accept a more mainstream look and feel to the platform. I just don't think it's going to happen any time soon.

 

With that being said I really enjoy using Debian and Ubuntu as desktop OS'. I feel they have come a long long way. If I was just a Facebook, email junkie or just in need of an office package then Ubuntu would be perfectly fine. Lots of distros have come a damn long way the last few years, which is a real credit to them!

 

I would argue that most people could get by with Ubuntu as long as they didn't have a multitude of USB printers and various items they need to connect up to their Desktop/Laptop PC.

 

However when i use nearly 2 hours to get my printer working it does remind me how easy Windows really is.

Edited by smakme7757

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People want to press the on button and do their stuff. The mindset of many PC/Linux people is that a quick Google search will give the answer, but people don't want to tinker. They want it to just work. Granted, Windows doesn't "Just work" all the time, but it's pretty good at holding hands when everything is pre-installed from the factory. Add in how easy it is to add extra equipment like printers and headsets and you have a winner.

This is the key issue. I've had people on the freeBSD forums tell me, without a trace of irony or self-deprecation, that if I want my wifi card to work I should write my own driver for it.

 

You cannot sell an operating system on this premise. One of the biggest reasons ubuntu has smashed every other linux OS out of the water is down to a little tick box in their installer. You may not have noticed it. It says "install proprietary drivers".

 

If you tick it, dell computers work again. This is important.

 

Package managers are excellent. Love them. However, when a linux package manager fails, you find yourself googling tar commands and download debs that for some inexplicable reason don't like the specific version of some dependency that your OS is using, and insists on the one compiled for CentOS two years ago.

 

Linux needs next-next-done installers. It needs next-next-done installers that work, every time.

 

Because the final piece of the puzzle relates to troubleshooting installers. It's really easy, during the process of installing something mundane on linux, to fuck it up so badly that your only real option is to format the computer and start again, because reinstalling everything will be twice as fast as fixing the issue manually, and five times less frustrating. Windows (usually) puts everything relevant to a program in the folder with the program. Generally, if you have to, you can shift-delete the folder, run CCleaner, and start again. Linux shotguns different parts of the program all across the hard drive, and where it puts them changes depending on what distro you are using. It's totally possible to end up with things installed that cannot then be deinstalled, but are fucking up other things you want to do.

 

Granted, you can do that on windows as well, but generally only for big programs in really strange scenarios. I got my python install wedged trying to install stackless the other day. Easiest solution? Bulldoze it all and start again. Not really an appropriate resolution to anyone trying to maintain a consistent environment.

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He's nailed it.

 

But jesus christ nerd crowds are annoying, and you could tell that a few in there were missing the point all together when he started talking package managers.

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I actually don't know about the next next done Sir_Substance.... purely because Ubuntu has managed an 'app store' style setup. Which is a hell of a lot simpler.

But both should be available i guess.

 

 

Thinking more and more on this, what needs a whole release worth of work is familiarity.

 

Took me forever to find resolution, setting a desktop background was somewhere else again, looking at my drives and hardware was hard to do without a terminal. Its just all a little hard.

 

Now that MS has an annoying 'new way' of doing that sort of thing, they should emulate the windows 98\2000\xp 'properties' menu from the desktop. I dont know why all those things have a seperate 'app'.

 

Spend a release without adding features, but with fixing or reworking whats already there. I'm just excited because ubuntu is SO CLOSE to a contender, but untill usability is there, and pseudo familiarity out of the box (even for newbs), its going to struggle.

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Is it really a problem with GNU/Linux though, or is it a problem with educating the users? As sir_substance has mentioned, users want a next next finish installer, that will install to a default location, but it *should* work. This is a Windows mindset. Not even OSX uses a next next finish installer, granted mounting a .dmg file and dragging it into a folder called 'apps' isn't exactly hard, but it's just a different way of doing it. I like aptitude, it tells me exactly what it is going to install, i know where i will find them (which isn't usually all over the place in my experience), if it depends on other packages, and it will get that too if I say okay, and then it just downloads and installs, takes seconds. Almost as easy as mac, but just a different way of doing it. I had one or two issues with a package being missing, on some obscure software but nothing that couldn't be solved by installing it manually, but that can hardly be unexpected when the program it compatible with all linux distros, and could be several years since it was last maintained. Once installed it will usually just work though.

 

How long have most people been using windows? Since the early 90s for those of us that old. It's what most people are used to, it's updated it's looks, and it's gotten better at what it does, but it's essentially still exactly the same interface as it was 20 years ago (not including windows 8). Some people like this consistency, it's safe and comfortable. Imagine for a second the first OS you used was debian, released over 2 years before windows 95. You would look at windows with a 'seriously WTF' mindsed, you expect me to download this executable file, without knowing what it will do, and run it and it will make changes all over my computer like the registry, program files, %appdata%, and usually many other places. Is this really what users want? It's not what I want. I fucking hate that every app will just install to documents and or %appdata% because that's not where I want to keep my files.

 

This may prove to be a poor analogy, but it's like driving a car, you're used to an automatic, you put it in drive and press either stop or go. You get a new car, it's a manual, you have to learn to operate a clutch, and to change gears, you need to go into first gear, then into second, then into third etc. it is better or worse? No, just different and it gives you more control over your car, but it requires a little bit of learning to take advantage. The same could be said for linux, you have more control so you need to learn how to use it. This is essentially where I think the problem is, people are lazy and they don't want to learn how to take advantage of this new power, they just want it to work. They don't want to read the man page, they just want to next next finish and then double click icon.

 

In my job I come across so many people who have been using windows every day for many years and still barely know the first thing about it, because they are either lazy or just don't care, every time their app crashes they need someone to fix it for them. I think this is because usually windows software is poorly documented and it throws out shitty error messages that don't mean anything, then there are config files all over the place any one of which could be your problem but if you can't launch your app you can't change your preferences without finding them and editing them manually, tucked away .dll files that could be corrupt and may need to be replaced or repaired etc. etc. so many possible things can go wrong. People tell me all the time it's just 'too hard'.

 

I would consider myself about an 6 to 8/10 on the scale of 'geekiness' depending on what constitutes a 10, so I don't claim to be the average joe, but the average joe doesn't know what version of windows came pre-installed on his laptop or how to use it, if it came with linux he would still have no fucking clue so it wouldn't matter to him either way, except that his work might use windows or his friends might use windows, so that's what he knows. You're all probably around my geek level or thereabouts, so you may not realize that the average mainstream user barely knows how to change their wallpaper or resolution in windows, so it doesn't matter what OS they use, they learned how to do it in windows so they could learn with something else too. They don't know how to set up an exchange profile in their outlook, or god forbid they need to open the command prompt for the first time in their life, or any other task we do day in day out without even thinking.

 

I myself have been using Windows since 1996 when I got my first PC, I only made the change to linux around 1 year ago, my desktop still maintains a windows install but only because I can't get all of the software I use on linux. In this year, I have grown from 0 to 7 linux devices in my house, not including my desktop as I think it still sees more time running Win7. At first I was confused as hell, I was going to websites trying to fine the 'installer' files to download, rather than the repo for my package manager, then I also didn't know what dpkg or aptitude was either, but I have put in the effort to learn and it has paid off, I couldn't be happier.

 

So, with my little spiel out of the way, what do I think linux needs to become more mainstream?

 

User education. Schools need to start using it, and teaching it, it's free so that means about $120 x number of PCs could be spent elsewhere, it's fully functional out of the box in many cases, it runs on all sorts of hardware, which will again save money (it's not just about money though, but think about these savings alone in your state and think about what the education dept. could do with that extra money at their disposal), and it can easily be deployed to an entire network with something like puppet, and I could go on. If you don't use M$ office at school, you use Libre, maybe you won't need Office at home, and can also use Libre. This starts to breed the kind of familiarity people have with windows and it will grow. I can't think of any good reason to use windows only in schools, except because it's what people are used to. There are always exceptions of course, but don't say that kids need to use windows at school to get a job, that's a load of crap, kids these days are so much more tech savvy than I was and most people were at that age, I've seen 2 year olds who can operate an iphone. I'm not suggesting they learn the intricacies of the shell, but clicking on a libre icon is no different than clicking on a word icon.

 

I do agree with some of the points made in the video above, especially about linux developers constantly re-inventing the wheel and changing things too often. Bryan makes a good point about desktop environments, there are many of them, but they are all largely the same. It would be nice to get some centralization without losing the freedom. Same could be said about a single package manager across all distros, it would take a lot of work to make it happen, but it can be done and there isn't really any advantage to having many of them right? One good one that does everything the others do would suffice, people can always use some obscure alternative package if required. I feel like aptitude does a great job here, yum does essentially the same thing, it's just adding more confusion to a new user, but it's not a deal breaker for most. It's just one more thing to learn which comes back to educating the users, and it's only really relevant if you're switching from debian to fedora or vice versa, and by then you are usually up to speed on basics of a package manager, it's essentially the same. If you're not sure just use the man pages, which tell you most of what you need to know.

 

More support from hardware vendors and big software companies. I have a canon printer I bought about 3 years ago, there are NO linux drivers available. This is because Canon suck, and I won't buy one of their products again. With more support for common hardware, more users might come across. These days its' pretty good, that printer is the only piece of hardware across all 7 devices I own running linux which has not just worked. Steam is doing a great job here bringing games to linux, one of the only reasons myself and a lot of others still use windows. I look forward to the next few years and seeing how this pans out.

 

Lastly it just needs time, within a few more years I think we will see a huge change and hopefully, we will see a rise in linux in the mainstream. Unless ubuntu fucks up majorly which some would argue they have done over and over again the last few years... it could be the next 'windows' - it's really down to the users to adopt it in my opinion, and the developers will go to where the users are.

 

Hopefully this wasn't too much of a rant. I started replying a few hours ago, then got distracted and just finished up my post but may have lost my original point along the way.

Edited by p0is0n

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If the linux alternate method worked, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Package managers do have graphical front ends users can use, but there's a problem.

 

Not everything is on the ubuntu package manager. The ongoing issue with linux has always been this:

 

The instant you try to do something non-standard, you'll find yourself at the command line.

 

I had a big spiel below this explaining how lots of things aren't on the package system and so forth, which I've just deleted because it boils down to that.

 

Adding new sites to the package manager requires the command line. Installing debs requires the command line.

 

Apt is shit. Everything command line is shit. It's literally the most user-unfriendly method of interacting with the computer possible. This is 2013, and if you think general users who just want to read their email are going to wade through a command line to do so, you're empirically, objectively, provably wrong.

 

"This is because Canon suck, and I won't buy one of their products again."

 

Lots of businesses own multiple $20000 Canon plotter printers. Do you expect them to just throw them away? You're crazy!

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stuff

Good effort, but nearly everything you said proves why Linux isn't ready for mainstream.

 

This may prove to be a poor analogy, but it's like driving a car, you're used to an automatic, you put it in drive and press either stop or go. You get a new car, it's a manual, you have to learn to operate a clutch, and to change gears, you need to go into first gear, then into second, then into third etc. it is better or worse? No, just different and it gives you more control over your car, but it requires a little bit of learning to take advantage. The same could be said for linux, you have more control so you need to learn how to use it. This is essentially where I think the problem is, people are lazy and they don't want to learn how to take advantage of this new power, they just want it to work. They don't want to read the man page, they just want to next next finish and then double click icon.

First you say "No, just different", but in the next breath say "more control".

 

The point of automatic transmission is that the micro-management tasks of operating the motor vehicle are offloaded from the driver, who can then focus on actually driving, navigating, avoiding obstacles, and so forth. They don't care if the revs are "just right", they care about following road rules, and getting to the destination. The selection of gear may as well be "moose", for all the relevance it has.

 

People that choose automatic transmission aren't lazy, nor are people that don't care to flick through jargon-filled man pages and wrestle with lengthy terminal commands.

 

In my job I come across so many people who have been using windows every day for many years and still barely know the first thing about it, because they are either lazy or just don't care, every time their app crashes they need someone to fix it for them. I think this is because usually windows software is poorly documented and it throws out shitty error messages that don't mean anything, then there are config files all over the place any one of which could be your problem but if you can't launch your app you can't change your preferences without finding them and editing them manually, tucked away .dll files that could be corrupt and may need to be replaced or repaired etc. etc. so many possible things can go wrong. People tell me all the time it's just 'too hard'.

Hang on.

 

It's your job to fix computers, but people are "lazy or just don't care" because they call on you?

 

Hmm...

 

I don't think a solicitor would think you were "lazy or just don't care" if you didn't try to settle a real estate transaction by yourself, but instead called him to do it for you in the first instance. You're not expected to know property law, just like a solicitor shouldn't be expected to read a man page, or even know what one is.

 

The computer is a means to an end. When it stops working, you stop being productive, no matter which OS you're using. The reason it stops working is irrelevant to the person using it.

 

User education. Schools need to start using it, and teaching it,

Why do they "need to"? What's the benefit over what they're doing now? (Think to Bryan's presentation, what's the real actual benefit of apt over yum?)

 

it's free so that means about $120 x number of PCs could be spent elsewhere,

Wrong for a few reasons.

 

Schools are generally covered by the government's Software Assurance agreement with Microsoft. Windows and Office are practically free. In addition, the Software Assurance agreement provides support. Microsoft is on-hand in case an OS patch kills something.

 

Ubuntu can be downloaded and installed free of charge. This comes with no warranties, no support (other than forum-loads of unmoderated noise), nothing. Companies like RedHat offer "Software Assurance" style agreements for open source software, but they sure as hell are not free, in fact they're quite pricey.

 

I can't think of any good reason to use windows only in schools, except because it's what people are used to.

Availability of IT support staff?

Availability of 3rd party software?

Existing skillset and staff retraining costs?

 

Hopefully this wasn't too much of a rant. I started replying a few hours ago, then got distracted and just finished up my post but may have lost my original point along the way.

Part of your point seems to be "It's good if you're a computer person" which is true.

 

But you also seem to be saying that people are lazy for not wanting to be "computer people", which is exactly the viewpoint keeping desktop Linux in the domain of nerds.

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But you also seem to be saying that people are lazy for not wanting to be "computer people", which is exactly the viewpoint keeping desktop Linux in the domain of nerds.

That's a more elegant way of saying what I was trying to say, but it goes further then that. For example, CAD designers are computer people, but they don't want to do any of that stuff either.

 

Even as a software engineer, I don't want to play with that crap. When I just want to do my job, I want things to just work.

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Sorry Sir_Substance I disagree.

If the linux alternate method worked, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Package managers do have graphical front ends users can use, but there's a problem.

The linux method does work - it's just not a great fit for some people. Just as Windows or OSX are not right for everyone.

Not everything is on the ubuntu package manager. The ongoing issue with linux has always been this:

 

The instant you try to do something non-standard, you'll find yourself at the command line.

 

I had a big spiel below this explaining how lots of things aren't on the package system and so forth, which I've just deleted because it boils down to that.

 

Adding new sites to the package manager requires the command line. Installing debs requires the command line.

Wrong!

There are graphical tools to install .deb packages - gdebi for example

You can add repos via the synaptic, cli not required - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories/Ubuntu

I do however recognise that the further you go from mainstream apps the more likely you are to need the command line at some point. Thing is - the further you are from mainstream the more likely you are comfortable with a CLI.

I detest the standard Windows app installers I often encounter these days, almost everything is packing payloads of browser toolbars or other crapware that you need to ensure you opt out of. Or is asking to change your browser settings or trying to change your defaults. - JUST INSTALL THIS PROGRAM AND DON"T FUCK WITH THE REST OF MY SYSTEM OR INSTALL ANY OTHER CRAPWARE DAMMIT..

I much prefer the linux way of installing: on my ArchLinux netbook:" # pacman -S program " will get the job done with no mucking about. It will download the file, test it for integrity, determine if there are any unfilled dependencies, if necessary it will resolve those dependencies by downloading and installing those also.

That is quicker and simpler than any GUI, works well and is very efficient - irrespective of your opinion of the CLI.

Apt is shit. Everything command line is shit. It's literally the most user-unfriendly method of interacting with the computer possible. This is 2013, and if you think general users who just want to read their email are going to wade through a command line to do so, you're empirically, objectively, provably wrong.

That's your opinion and you are quite quite entitled to it, I for one find the command line a very valuable tool and one I hate being without.

"This is because Canon suck, and I won't buy one of their products again."

 

Lots of businesses own multiple $20000 Canon plotter printers. Do you expect them to just throw them away? You're crazy!

Thats p0is0n's opinion and he's entitled to it too. He's not referring to $20000 plotters, if you're buying hardware at that level you'll be doing your homework regarding drivers and compatibility with your systems and existing workflow. He's referring to canon failing to make CUPS drivers that work properly in both OSX and Linux for a domestic printer.

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For some reason it won't let me log in with my other account, it's been fucked since it was 'renamed'...

 

I may have been a bit all over the place in that post, not sure I can articulate what I mean well but will try again, with less words.

 

Apt is shit. Everything command line is shit. It's literally the most user-unfriendly method of interacting with the computer possible. This is 2013, and if you think general users who just want to read their email are going to wade through a command line to do so, you're empirically, objectively, provably wrong.

 

"This is because Canon suck, and I won't buy one of their products again."

 

Lots of businesses own multiple $20000 Canon plotter printers. Do you expect them to just throw them away? You're crazy!

I don't understand your point here, in order to read email, you don't need to use the command line, if you're a regular joe, you don't need to use the command line. If you're just trying to read email, you won't run into any of the issues with obscure packages that aren't in the repos and as such, will never need to touch the command line.

 

I still think it's quicker and easier to type 'special + t' to open a terminal, then 'apt-get install whatever' than it is to open software center, search for what you want, click some stuff, agree to something etc. it takes at least 5 times longer. It's about options, you have the option to use any package manager you want. If you don't know, the default does a decent job for the average joe.

 

Where did I say that business users using business grade equipment should throw them away, nowhere, I just said that I personally won't be buying canon again as their low end linux support is non existent so it causes me headaches when I need to print. I have probably got more experience in this area than you, given I work with large malfunction and business machines regularly as part of my job, unless you also do the same. I know what does and doesn't work, and once a network port is added to a printer, it's a different game. Doesn't make me and more likely to buy a canon with my next purchase though, if the equivalent HP or lexmark etc. has linux support.

 

Hang on.

 

It's your job to fix computers, but people are "lazy or just don't care" because they call on you?

 

Hmm...

 

I don't think a solicitor would think you were "lazy or just don't care" if you didn't try to settle a real estate transaction by yourself, but instead called him to do it for you in the first instance. You're not expected to know property law, just like a solicitor shouldn't be expected to read a man page, or even know what one is.

 

The computer is a means to an end. When it stops working, you stop being productive, no matter which OS you're using. The reason it stops working is irrelevant to the person using it.

I am not trying to say they are lazy for calling a professional to fix their issue, it's my job I do it gladly, but if you are calling me to do extremely simple tasks you should just know how to do as someone who uses a PC every day, it's what I call lazy. For example I get asked to help people share calendars all the time, all they need to do is right click and share it with the user they wish, but that's "too hard" because they are lazy, it's not hard at all. It actually takes more time to write an email asking for someone to do it, then to just do it yourself. People are just getting lazier and lazier as computers do more and more work for them. In some ways this is good, it saves us time, but in other ways it's bad, as people are less self reliant when there is every resource in the world available to them.

 

I had an issue with my car a few months ago, it was misfiring regularly and so I took the intake manifold off to get to the plugs, and upon removing the plugs I found that some of them were bad, so I just replaced the lot. The coils tested fine so I just put it back together and it's been running fine since. I was quoted $900 by an auto elec to check and replace all plugs and coils on my car, it took me about an hour and I learned something. I'm not a mechanic, if it was a gearbox issue, I would have taken it to a trans shop but I considered this a simple task and so I put in the effort and just saved myself some time, and now I am better off because I gained knowledge.

 

Why do they "need to"? What's the benefit over what they're doing now? (Think to Bryan's presentation, what's the real actual benefit of apt over yum?)

I suppose they don't need to, but it would be a nice option to have, see below though.

 

Wrong for a few reasons.

 

Schools are generally covered by the government's Software Assurance agreement with Microsoft. Windows and Office are practically free. In addition, the Software Assurance agreement provides support. Microsoft is on-hand in case an OS patch kills something.

 

Ubuntu can be downloaded and installed free of charge. This comes with no warranties, no support (other than forum-loads of unmoderated noise), nothing. Companies like RedHat offer "Software Assurance" style agreements for open source software, but they sure as hell are not free, in fact they're quite pricey.

I'll concede this point, I wasn't aware schools got so much for free from Microsoft, I guess this has helped with windows market share significantly. Something similar from canonical might help increase ubuntu market share then? My point was more that people just use what they are used to, so if they got used to ubuntu it would probably be their preference at home too, which would also help to increase market share. The average user doesn't really care what their OS is, as long as facebook and email work etc.

 

I don't know the exact answer, but I think that education will play a big part. The only reason we don't need to educate windows users further is because they are already so familiar with it, but it would have had to happen at some stage, probably in school using free windows from microsoft :)

Edited by p0is(+)n

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Here's a mental excercise: In a race by three users, Install firefox on Windows , Ubuntu using synaptic , Ubuntu using Apt

Assume a user competent with that particular method of installing software.

 

In general terms:

On the Windows system you'll need to open a browser, find and navigate to the download page, download the installer, open the folder it was downloaded into, extract if compressed, then run the 'next, next, finished' installer.

 

Using Synaptic, you'll open Synaptic, search for Firefox, select Firefox and click install - typing your password along the way.

 

Using CLI you'll open a terminal (like p0is0n I use a 'special + t' key combo) then type 'sudo apt-get install firefox', then enter your password.

 

Now Ask yourself:

Which user has the advantage? What is the simplest to use? What is the simplest to explain on a web forum to a newb?

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I had an issue with my car a few months ago, it was misfiring regularly and so I took the intake manifold off to get to the plugs, and upon removing the plugs I found that some of them were bad, so I just replaced the lot.

What's a manifold? What's a plug? Why would you guess at those being the cause?

 

I personally know, but one shouldn't be expected to, simply to drive the car.

 

The coils tested fine so I just put it back together and it's been running fine since. I was quoted $900 by an auto elec to check and replace all plugs and coils on my car, it took me about an hour and I learned something. I'm not a mechanic, if it was a gearbox issue, I would have taken it to a trans shop but I considered this a simple task and so I put in the effort and just saved myself some time, and now I am better off because I gained knowledge.

That's all fine if you have the time, and more importantly the inclination. Most people would just drop the car off at the dealer on the way to work, and let trained people worry about it.

 

I'll concede this point, I wasn't aware schools got so much for free from Microsoft, I guess this has helped with windows market share significantly.

It's not really "free". The volume is just large enough that the per-seat costs are negligible.

 

Something similar from canonical might help increase ubuntu market share then? My point was more that people just use what they are used to, so if they got used to ubuntu it would probably be their preference at home too, which would also help to increase market share. The average user doesn't really care what their OS is, as long as facebook and email work etc.

They'll care when they can't install that family tree program to see what Uncle John's been working on.

 

I don't know the exact answer, but I think that education will play a big part. The only reason we don't need to educate windows users further is because they are already so familiar with it, but it would have had to happen at some stage, probably in school using free windows from microsoft :)

Lots of people smarter than you or I have been asking the same questions, and thinking the same thoughts, I'm sure.

 

If there was a simple answer, Desktop Linux wouldn't still be a curiosity outside nerd circles.

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I had an issue with my car a few months ago, it was misfiring regularly and so I took the intake manifold off to get to the plugs, and upon removing the plugs I found that some of them were bad, so I just replaced the lot.

What's a manifold? What's a plug? Why would you guess at those being the cause?

 

I personally know, but one shouldn't be expected to, simply to drive the car.

 

The coils tested fine so I just put it back together and it's been running fine since. I was quoted $900 by an auto elec to check and replace all plugs and coils on my car, it took me about an hour and I learned something. I'm not a mechanic, if it was a gearbox issue, I would have taken it to a trans shop but I considered this a simple task and so I put in the effort and just saved myself some time, and now I am better off because I gained knowledge.

That's all fine if you have the time, and more importantly the inclination. Most people would just drop the car off at the dealer on the way to work, and let trained people worry about it.

Without getting too far off topic, I do know what a spark plug is, but I didn't know what an intake manifold was at the time, and i had to google how to use my torque wrench as i had never used one before, but I just followed a Gregorys type manual (not unlike a man page) and did what it suggested. I am not suggesting everyone does this, or should be able to, but it's what I am getting at when I say you can put in a small amount of effort and not only learn something but also solve your own problems. I wish a lot more people shared this attitude, but I also realize I am a bit of a tinkerer so what seems like an exciting challenge to me may seem like a daunting pain in the ass to someone else.

 

Will let this thread get back on track now. :)

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The majority of the business world uses Windows

The majority of the consumer world uses Windows

The majority of the of the entire world uses Windows

 

Windows is the king of compatibility because everyone uses Windows and Windows gets the job done, so why should people use an alternative?

 

That's why it's so hard for Linux to break thorough.

 

Even if Linux waps 100% comatible with everything and it didn't have any issues at all it would still suffer. People who don't give a shit about IT just want to use something they know how to use and get their work done.

 

I moved my wife over to Ubuntu and even though everything worked fine she had to learn to use it which was something she didn't want to do.

 

Just look at the backlash from Windows 8. People absolutely hate change.

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People don't hate change, they hate poor change. The iPhone was massive change and people lapped that shit up like it was a malaria healing deity.

 

I've yet to use any Linux based desktop distro that wasn't a UI/UX regression from Windows or MacOS. Linux distros are so terrible that in the space of my computing degree I've see a heavily PC/Linux based cohort turn into heavy Mac/MacOS user base. Linux simply sucks for getting shit done without falling into a command line trap. If computing students don't want it, you can't expect regular users to either.

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You're right substance.

I found many a program I wanted from a differenr repo. SPent like an hour looking for a way to "click the repo" but had to resort to command line.

I now see there is a GUI way to do it, but its piss poor to find. Why didnt my OS\browser pick up it was a "link" and allow me to add from the page? Why did I have to open another program to follow the link within another.

 

 

As for the car analogy, most people would just drop it off at the shop; yes.

But if I have to do this every time I need CLI in Linux, I'd be returning my car under the LEMON LAW for being in the shop too much.

 

I have a similar bone to pick with MacOS in regards to keychains, but to be honest, keychains and "itunes" (store, etc) are the only bonbes I have to pick, and I'm sure there would be a way to disable the both of them if I owned one.

 

One other windows advantage is 'repairing'. Im yet to see a Linux distro I've broken thats been able to fix itself without a reinstall. Windows however does this all the time :)

 

 

I'm playing devils advocate here a bit, because I believe Ubuntu is ready for the Elderly, people who use PURELY a web browser or PURELY an office suite. Hell, even graphics designers if you like GIMP, but for a home user who does 'a bit of everything' walls... walls everywhere. Not impassable walls, just ones that need a CLI hammer to break through.

 

People don't hate change, they hate poor change. The iPhone was massive change and people lapped that shit up like it was a malaria healing deity.

No, face it, people hat change. WHen its a 'good change' its easier to swallow. The reason the iPhone worked was because the older 'dumb phones' were at the end of their tether. Everyone knew them all, nothing exciting about them. the iPhone itself ive never really heard a good thing said about; Its only the apps that ive heard people compliment (ok thats an exaggeration) but you have to admit, the 'cool things the app can do' won the iphone, not the fact the iphone was new.

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