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martyr

Spying on the neighbours

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The whole spying situation is something that I assumed was going on in the background between all governments, but when it becomes apparent to the party being spied on that its happening I can imagine the anger and its an awkward situation. Hopefully this doesn't have any long term damage on the relationship between Indonesia and Australia. Do you think that Abbot's stance so far of "Everyone was doing it" is adequate? Do you think that its reasonable for governments to be trying to listen in on the conversations of other government officials?

 

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/1...tp-apologise-pm

 

I could be wrong, but in another show of excellence in journalism/editing - in a move that rivals china's photoshopping efforts it looks like ninemsn used a photo of the pm with president Yudhoyono with a black hat that looks like it was drawn in using MS Paint. Pretty sure black hat is a symbol of spying... so is this a stuff up where an opportunistic journalist just grabbed the first photo they could find or is it more deliberate? I'll be shocked if that is a real hat, it just doesn't look right in the lighting of the photo.

Edited by martyr

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Spying happens. We spy on Americans, they spy on us. How do you think we were able to customize the F1-11's so much? US didn't release all the data we needed so we 'stole' the data. US knew we were doing it, and used it as an exercise to improve their counterspying capabilities. (Lots of stories/books/articles about this)

 

However, it has become an 'issue' because of the political climate. Indonesia is not a big fan of us at the moment. To just refuse our requests would be bad diplomacy, unless they had a reason. This all was happening during Rudd's time. So it's not purely Tony's fault. I would not be surprised if Indonesia knew about it during Rudd's time. However, it wasn't politically/diplomatically expediant to release it at the time. Think of it as them using a 'get out of jail free card'.

 

AD

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I agree with the front page of The Age this morning - we do it because we don't trust them. We have been doing it for ages and they have known for ages. The fact that it's out in the public domain means they have another piece to play in the game of diplomacy.

 

As for Abbott, I'm not sure what more he can say. He can't deny it and he can't say that they will stop because they wont...

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Oh I don't blame Abbott - I'd heard that they had traced it back to 2009 or something, but just wondered whether his statements on it were enough right now.

 

AD, it certainly gives Indonesia a one-up on us at the moment. Do you think it will blow over after a couple of months or do you think it might damage our ability to negotiate with Indonesia into the future.

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Indeed. A big over-reaction from the Indonesians, who once again show themselves to be petulant diplomatic amateurs.

 

Like an angry child they are seizing upon this to extract unconditional coddling. The feigned offence they are showing, complete with over-emotional statements from high rankers who should know better, just demonstrates once again that the ideal relationship they desire with us is one in which Australia is expected to be deferential to their serial disrespect of our nation, while jerking us around and leveraging our 'valued relationship' to keep on acting like a proud child who is too driven by ego to actually communicate rationally.

 

I am returning two cans of indo-caught tuna to Coles tonight in protest :)

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Heh,

 

It will blow over, we can't really say it but they spy on us as well.

 

Indonesia gets spied on by lots of countries and spies back, Malaysia and Singapore in particular. If anyone thinks we have a boat-people problem they should look at the nightly traffic from Indonesia into Malaysia. It's not refugees from elsewhere though, it's Indonesians looking for a better life. Most get caught and sent back but some get past and are sort of accepted in society after a while, usually as domestic help same as Mexicans in the US.

 

Spying is in many ways just common-sense and allies spy on each other as much or more so than they do on potential enemies.

 

Cheers

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Australia should seriously think about its border more so now. And stop these War games they have with Indonesia full stop. Indonesia wants to bully Australia around and the greens and lefties are playing into their hands.

 

My Father told me the Indonesians where worse than the japs after WW2 Executing and slaughtering anyone still in their territories regardless of where they came from. History tells many stories about neighbours ,so who can we trust?

 

Schapelle Corby will be next they will make her sentence longer and crack down harder on all those heading for Bali.

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Cut off their foreign aid, which in itself has been a joke for years.

 

Giving them Billions as they cry poor, yet can still somehow afford Su-27 class aircraft for their Air Force while the neighbours slum it out with F/A-18s.

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Eh,

 

It's all just politics, I very much doubt it will affect Bali, it might be part of Indonesia but that's more an accident, not even the same religion and the Island survives on tourism. The bombs damned near killed the place it's really only just recovering.

 

Cancelling the military exercises would be very unwise, that's how you re-build bridges.

 

Your dad is quite correct though code, they have a pretty bloody history, life is cheap up there.

 

Dunno about those SU-27s Ry, Russian aircraft are pretty cheap, but they barely fly them anyway, always just sitting on the ground as with most of their little air force toys.

 

Cheers

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Guest xyzzy frobozz

Actually this is a pretty big deal, and it deserves to be.

 

Can you imagine the outrage in Australia if we found out that Indonesia had tapped the Prime Minister's phone?

 

There is espionage that is more or less expected - gathering electronic data and so forth, and then there is tapping the phone of a head of government. This may or may not happen daily in global affairs, but when you get caught you don't just brush it off.

 

Indonesia has every right to be mightily pissed off about this. To say "It goes on" just isn't good enough. We should be apologising very sincerely and assuring Indonesia that it won't happen again. This was an act that was unfriendly at best and that is very arguably hostile. As I said, this may or may not happen daily, but you don't get caught and, if you do, you certainly don't insult the target by being any less than fully contrite.

 

This is a seriously damaging episode. SBY has been a very friendly president when it comes to relations with Australia. We have just given all of the ammunition anyone needs for this to become an issue. SBY is a fairly moderate leader, and the coming elections in Indonesia sees a number of Nationalist candidates vying for the presidency. It would not be hard to see a prospective nationalist candidate taking a very hard and unfriendly line on Australia and winning votes accordingly.

 

A very sorry affair poorly handled by the government.

Edited by xyzzy frobozz

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I think the real issue is how an American security contractor was able to access these documents. There was a systematic fuck up somewhere along the line, and Indonesia is milking it for all it's worth.

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Guest xyzzy frobozz

softcockness..

 

Fuck indonesia, point everything we have at them.

 

Point what at them? A military of 50,000 that can't even stop boats?

 

Good luck with that Custer.

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I dunno xyz, from this pretty good article there has been no real tapping, just tracking, and quite frankly if a head of state or an important official wants to make a call that he doesn't want overheard he should not be making such a call on an unencrypted commercial 3G handset. Those calls should be either on a secure landline or an encrypted sat phone.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-18/aust...-reveal/5098860

 

Perhaps we shouldn't be listening but it's Signals job to listen and when it's basically being broadcast in the clear...

 

I don't really think Indonesia is that naive about comsec, and can't really see that anything serious has been learned.

 

Cheers

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Guest xyzzy frobozz

I dunno xyz, from this pretty good article there has been no real tapping, just tracking, and quite frankly if a head of state or an important official wants to make a call that he doesn't want overheard he should not be making such a call on an unencrypted commercial 3G handset. Those calls should be either on a secure landline or an encrypted sat phone.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-18/aust...-reveal/5098860

 

Perhaps we shouldn't be listening but it's Signals job to listen and when it's basically being broadcast in the clear...

 

I don't really think Indonesia is that naive about comsec, and can't really see that anything serious has been learned.

It wasn't just his phone, it was his wife's phone and the phones of most of his staff.

 

Saying that "It's Signals job" (regardless of the fact that it was an ASIO operation) isn't good enough. They got caught. Remember the fuss over fake Australian passports forged by Mossad? Australia expelled a number of Israel's diplomatic staff without the sort of smoking gun evidence that Indonesia now has in it's possession. It should also be pointed out that it wasn't Indonesia who uncovered this, but the Australian media through the Snowden releases, so saying as AD did that it somehow suits their agenda is ridiculous. Given that the info came from the Snowden releases, the Australian Government should have been working in the background with Indonesia before the story broke. The smirking "everyone-does-it-we're-not-going-to-discuss-intelligence-matters" platitudes are just the insult to the injury.

 

We would be doing exactly the same things as they're doing - recalling our ambassador, issuing angry statements and reviewing our relationship. What the hell does anyone expect them to do? Send us cake?

 

The only people we have hurt in all of this is ourselves and those in Indonesia, such as SBY himself, who advocate friendlier and stronger relations with Australia. This is a diplomatic and strategic own goal.

Edited by xyzzy frobozz

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That I totally agree with, but what are the odds it happens with mobiles in the hands of important people worldwide?

 

The tapping scandal in the UK showed how much of it goes on by the media, the technology is very convenient, even those who should know better can be guilty of thinking it doesn't matter and no one will be listening, but anyone can with a scanner within range and able to tune to the necessary frequencies although sorting out the calls you want is non-trivial. Very doable though.

 

It's why terrorists do not trust mobiles at all.

 

Cheers

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Guest xyzzy frobozz

The tapping scandal in the UK showed how much of it goes on by the media, the technology is very convenient, even those who should know better can be guilty of thinking it doesn't matter and no one will be listening, but anyone can with a scanner within range and able to tune to the necessary frequencies although sorting out the calls you want is non-trivial. Very doable though.

Fine.

 

But don't get caught, and expect diplomatic ramifications if you do.

 

I really don't get how the Indonesians can be expected to be wearing any of the blame, or how anyone should think that they shouldn't be pissed off about it.

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softcockness..

 

Fuck indonesia, point everything we have at them.

 

Point what at them? A military of 50,000 that can't even stop boats?

 

Good luck with that Custer.

 

What of it?

 

The tapping scandal in the UK showed how much of it goes on by the media, the technology is very convenient, even those who should know better can be guilty of thinking it doesn't matter and no one will be listening, but anyone can with a scanner within range and able to tune to the necessary frequencies although sorting out the calls you want is non-trivial. Very doable though.

Fine.

 

But don't get caught, and expect diplomatic ramifications if you do.

 

I really don't get how the Indonesians can be expected to be wearing any of the blame, or how anyone should think that they shouldn't be pissed off about it.

 

 

Who is blaming the indonesians? Why should we care if they are pissed off?

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Guest xyzzy frobozz

softcockness..

 

Fuck indonesia, point everything we have at them.

 

Point what at them? A military of 50,000 that can't even stop boats?

 

Good luck with that Custer.

 

What of it?

 

The tapping scandal in the UK showed how much of it goes on by the media, the technology is very convenient, even those who should know better can be guilty of thinking it doesn't matter and no one will be listening, but anyone can with a scanner within range and able to tune to the necessary frequencies although sorting out the calls you want is non-trivial. Very doable though.

Fine.

 

But don't get caught, and expect diplomatic ramifications if you do.

 

I really don't get how the Indonesians can be expected to be wearing any of the blame, or how anyone should think that they shouldn't be pissed off about it.

 

 

Who is blaming the indonesians? Why should we care if they are pissed off?

 

You shouldn't hack people's accounts fajw, and if you're going to troll you should make it less obvious.

Edited by xyzzy frobozz

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The tapping scandal in the UK showed how much of it goes on by the media, the technology is very convenient, even those who should know better can be guilty of thinking it doesn't matter and no one will be listening, but anyone can with a scanner within range and able to tune to the necessary frequencies although sorting out the calls you want is non-trivial. Very doable though.

Fine.

 

But don't get caught, and expect diplomatic ramifications if you do.

 

I really don't get how the Indonesians can be expected to be wearing any of the blame, or how anyone should think that they shouldn't be pissed off about it.

 

Yep, makes you wonder if there is not more going on, like NSA fiddling the situation, I would not put it past them.

 

They have every right to make all the noises, but would find it hard to say they don't do the same - schoolyard back and forth but the two things that need understanding is everyone does it and getting caught is not permissible, although I doubt ASIO are going to get much of a rap over it - sadly they are not exactly the smartest bunch in the intel world.

 

Cheers

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haha,

 

I can assure you I am not fajw, although he seems to be looking on intently.

 

But seriously.. what of? our military and border interests? and why should we care what indonesia feels?

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remember this ; Trust is earned not given or bought

 

Maybe both side should start at the bottom and learn the hard way to earn respect and trust.

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Betzie, there are a multitude of reasons:

 

They are our neighbour in a region where we are a little bit odd-one out, pays to be friends

 

They are a Muslim nation, there are terrorists in their midst, we don't want the place going hard-line

 

They do have a far larger population than us and a far larger military, I don't think we want a war, even if they would not be likely to win it

 

We have reasonable relations with them overall, a deal of trade and tourism

 

We most certainly do not want an enemy on our doorstep

 

They have a lot of friends regional and global who would very likely back them if they decided to cut us off

 

We share a chunk of water with them that is oil-rich, we want to share it, not fight over it

 

There are a lot of Australian citizens living in Indonesia

 

There are more but simply put it is high time that nations stopped having these squabbles there are much more pressing global problems to deal with.

 

I can accept that the situation itself is not unusual but I do agree with XYZ it is polite to apologise, not get angsty and accept we were caught with our hand in the t ill by whatever means that happened.

 

Wars have started over less, that is the last thing we want. I'd would not say it is likely but your attitude is pretty ignorant.

 

Cheers

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Guest xyzzy frobozz

But seriously.. what of? our military and border interests? and why should we care what indonesia feels?

Chris has answered most of them but, in a nutshell, because it's in Australia's best interest to have a good relationship with Indonesia.

 

What other reason do you need? Why should we not care what Indonesia thinks?

Edited by xyzzy frobozz

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Wars have started over less, that is the last thing we want. I'd would not say it is likely but your attitude is pretty ignorant.

 

Cheers

I'm not ignorant to the reasons chris, just conveying that we should care more about our own sovereignty than we care about indonesias...

 

 

 

But seriously.. what of? our military and border interests? and why should we care what indonesia feels?

Chris has answered most of them, but why shouldn't we care about what Indonesia feels?

 

 

We should, within reason.

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