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scruffy1

how crap is this government ?

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Well....

 

Black lung is very much  thing of the past, mining is so regulated these days you are likely better off working on a mine than you are walking down Pitt Street but Leo does have a problem when it comes to seeing real returns on dubious projects.

 

Cheers

 

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1 minute ago, chrisg said:

Leo does have a problem when it comes to seeing real returns on dubious projects.

 

Indeed. How many times did I say the NBN, Fibre or not, was a white elephant in an age of 3G,4G, 5G, CAT-M1, NB-IOT, LoraWAN, Sigfox, HaLow, Weightless? And those are just the wireless protocols!

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17 minutes ago, chrisg said:

"one in a thousand year flood."

 

Go tell it to the former residents of Fukushima, we are in transitional times, such comments mean nothing.

 

Transitional times for plate tectonics? I'm really going to need an explanation of THAT!

 

And yeah... Fukushima is the exception that proves the rule. How many other *normal* earthquakes has it survived until it hit the combination of a 9.1 quake and 56m tsunami?

 

The largest earthquake recorded until that time in Japan was an 8.4 in December 1854 with a 28m tsunami.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, chrisg said:

Mines post establishment actually employ very few people these days, they are just money pits.

 

Well not 100%.

 

ABS states that 37,800 people are directly employed in coal mining. Apologies, I couldn't find newer figures than 2014

 

According to this dataset, as at October 2012 there were 405 operating mines in Australia.

 

According to this list, there are 54 coal mines.

 

So it's pretty simple. On average... each coal mine employs about 700 people directly.

 

Indirectly... it's anyone's guess.... but let's be conservative... and double it. 1400. That's not a lot. Until you realise that's basically a small country town or across a series of towns where one person in a family working, means the whole family is financially secure.

 

Is it a lot? Nah. But that's lifeblood stuff out in woop woop.

 

To make my point, peruse this list of the Hunter area's biggest employers and you'll understand my point. The Hunter is by no metric, a rural location, but the second largest employer is a coal company. Then religion. Then Ausgrid. Then another coal company.

 

Coal is important and the job numbers for us city folk seem piddly. Not to country towns though.

 

.

Edited by Leonid
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1 hour ago, Leonid said:

 

The levee is designed for a one in one thousand year flood.

 

 

based on what predictions ?

 

as the atmosphere heats up it becomes considerably more dynamic than previously, the previously on which they base the 1 in a millennium events - past, not future patterns

 

i'm calling bullshit

 

once the first category 5 "tropical" cyclone takes a left curve down the east coast and drowns brisbane, or even sydney (given our recent "east coast low" events, the insurance industry will be charging everyone crazy prices for cover

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Well now, if you would care to expand ev I'll listen, but black lung went away a long time ago.

 

No one could argue that it was a tragic issue, but coal miners have not been afflicted by it for a long, long time.

 

If you think tectonic plate activity is restricted to the most active areas Leo you are sadly mistaken, I'd prefer we not take the risk rather than rue the consequences but your

 

rather Soviet que sera attitude says otherwise  🙂

 

I'd prefer you not irradiate us completely before we fully understand the implications of 4G let alone 5G but it seems we are roiling it out anyway, stupid does not quite describe the sanguine belief that "she'll be right mate, "

 

Cheers

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, scruffy1 said:

based on what predictions ?

 

Seriously you guys are beginning to sound like anti-vaxxers.

 

”based on what predictions?”

”go tell that to the people from the Fukushima exclusion zone”

 

Is “my child had an adverse reaction to vaccine X, go tell my child vaccines are safe!” next?

 

Aren’t we supposed to be smarter than that?

 

Seriously. You’re asking me questions, I open the Googles and find the answers.

 

At the beginning of this conversation I knew precisely as much as you do now about that mine (SFA). Then I had questions asked of me so I opened up an activist site claiming that indeed the mine will cause deforestation. So I looked that up and even cast an eye over the site in Google Earth - it’s a bullshit claim.

 

Do yourself a favour - there are hundreds of pages of publicly accessible tender and other government documents. Read through them or search for the info you seek. Invariably all activist talking points melt away... and then maybe adopt a position.

Edited by Leonid

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9 minutes ago, chrisg said:

If you think tectonic plate activity is restricted to the most active areas Leo you are sadly mistaken, I'd prefer we not take the risk rather than rue the consequences but your rather Soviet que sera attitude says otherwise.

 

Actually on a given month, I don’t think about plate tectonics at all as it’s somewhere between Palestinian Statehood and land rights for gay whales (where gay whales are higher) on my list of world priorities.

 

But I really do want you to explain to me how we’re in a transitional time vis-a-vis plate tectonics and nuclear site planning? Is there something that’s changing about plate tectonics that we should all know about?

13 minutes ago, chrisg said:

I'd prefer you not irradiate us completely before we fully understand the implications of 4G let alone 5G but it seems we are roiling it out anyway, stupid does not quite describe the sanguine belief that "she'll be right mate, "

 

There’s a special on for TinFoil hats at GearBest. I can order you one with a built in 60GHz wifi receiver.

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We don't need to worry about tectonic plates or weather  ... we got buildings that want to disintegrate with out a shudder ... we just let our big biz  guys go crazy with their money making schemes

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4 minutes ago, eveln said:

We don't need to worry about tectonic plates or weather  ... we got buildings that want to disintegrate with out a shudder ... we just let our big biz  guys go crazy with their money making schemes

 

This is what I expect to read in Green Left Weekly, right above the article “Are eyebrows racist? We ask three gay rabbis.”

 

Look, standards are standards and can always be improved. But at some point standards outweigh the benefits of having them.

 

An example is Sydney’s cratered night life because of the lockout laws which every expert in the trauma care industry is firmly for. Violence is down, hospital intake has more than halved on typical “out” nights. Yet the same people who stringently ask for standards of Adani to make sure nothing goes wrong, campaign for relaxed laws and standards 🙂

 

You gotta understand: we need mining. We need buildings. We need standards. We need a good environment. We also need them on time and within budgets.

 

All these things compete and you’ll never get the mix right.

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6 minutes ago, Leonid said:

You gotta understand: we need mining. We need buildings. We need standards. We need a good environment. We also need them on time and within budgets.

You gotta go visit a few different mining areas. Talk to the people that do live close by, that do work in the mines, that do try and survive with a mine in their back yard .

And then tell me how standards outweigh shite ... try looking a wee bit further than the next ten years

 

We all know mining has done amazing things for a ' progressive human race ' ... but we also know when mining is overkill. Or we should if we bothered to properly learn

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32 minutes ago, eveln said:

You gotta go visit a few different mining areas. Talk to the people that do live close by, that do work in the mines, that do try and survive with a mine in their back yard .

And then tell me how standards outweigh shite ... try looking a wee bit further than the next ten years

 

Change mines to airports and you’ll get the same story.

 

The Adani mine is 130+km away from the nearest town. The people that live “nearby” will be just fine.

 

To use Chris’s example, the Fukushima exclusion zone is much smaller than that in radius.

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2 hours ago, Leonid said:

 

Seriously you guys are beginning to sound like anti-vaxxers.

 

 

seriously you sound like a man who thinks the world isn't trying to shake off the infestation of humans that are annoying it like the parasites we are

 

if you think the weather isn't going to get more dynamic, you should consider entropy

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, scruffy1 said:

seriously you sound like a man who thinks the world isn't trying to shake off the infestation of humans that are annoying it like the parasites we are

 

We aren’t going to get off this planet without coal mines and without base-load power.

 

Every single new technology that is superior to its predecessor was designed on its predecessor. We need coal to get off coal.

 

Which brings me to your next, or rather my next point, eloquently expressed by you:

 

1 hour ago, scruffy1 said:

If you think the weather isn't going to get more dynamic, you should consider entropy

 

As it happens, I do think the weather is going to get more dynamic.

 

Which is why I have always stated that deploying wind and solar power (which are 100% weather dependent) on a planet with a fluid climate envelope and a day/night cycle and with more dynamic weather coming up, is the height of stupidity.

 

Which brings me back to the point: we need coal to get off coal. Or we need nuclear.

 

But with all the FUD thrown around here about how a hole in the ground will murder babies and give black lungs to people 130km away, while causing deforestation on grazing land, I’m starting to understand where the problem with nuclear in Australia really lies.

Edited by Leonid

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8 hours ago, eveln said:

try looking a wee bit further than the next ten years

 

You're talking about a man who thinks 'infinite' means 'very large'.  Scope is not his strong point.

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2 hours ago, Cybes said:

 

You're talking about a man who thinks 'infinite' means 'very large'.  Scope is not his strong point.

I don't know that that is so ... I do know that he and his young family don't live in a mining area (Mt.Isa for instance), and his two children don't have lead poisoning . Mind you living in inner Suburban Sydney they won't exactly be free of toxins either me thinks

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Life is always about choices including whether to live in a city or not.

 

In Australia that can be strangely suspect, moving out bush can often mean putting yourself closer to harmful environments, Mt Isa, not of itself a bad place being a good example, where I used to briefly live, Port Augusta, is another. I've lost a sister, a mother, a father and a few friends to cancer over the past few years, all of whom lived much longer than I did in the Port. It does make me wonder, especially as my brother persists in living there.

 

Perhaps not irrelevant PA is rather close to Maralinga in real terms.

 

Actually tectonic plate activity is on the rise Leo, it's a cyclical phenomena and not something that bothers me at all because I can't do a thing about it but if I were making decisions about where to put nuclear power plants I would be bearing it in mind.

 

It is somewhat crazy that Japan has a near total dependence upon nuclear energy whilst being right on a fault line, same goes for California.

 

Just why we as a race are not moving very quickly to embrace thorium based nuclear power generation and getting as far away as we can from both uranium based AND coal based generation when we have built a society that is totally reliant upon electricity is beyond me.

 

Cheers

 

 

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6 hours ago, Cybes said:

 

You're talking about a man who thinks 'infinite' means 'very large'.  Scope is not his strong point.

 

Scope’s a very strong point. Are you really arguing that we’re going to run out of energy in a thus far infinite universe because in 10^106 years it might encounter heat death, again?

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3 hours ago, eveln said:

I don't know that that is so ... I do know that he and his young family don't live in a mining area (Mt.Isa for instance), and his two children don't have lead poisoning . Mind you living in inner Suburban Sydney they won't exactly be free of toxins either me thinks

 

Please do me a solid. Open up Google Earth and search for the Adani mine.

 

It’s 130km away from any settlement larger than a farmhouse. That’s 110km larger than the Fukushima Exclusion Zone and 100km larger than the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone.

 

No black lung, no lead poisoning, no deforestation and no poisoning of rivers or the Great Artesian Basin will result from this mine if it sticks to parameters they’ve lawfully entered into agreement on.

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3 hours ago, chrisg said:

Just why we as a race are not moving very quickly to embrace thorium based nuclear power generation and getting as far away as we can from both uranium based AND coal based generation when we have built a society that is totally reliant upon electricity is beyond me.

 

Because we spend 3 days clarifying that bullshit lies from environmental activists about a particular coal mine are in fact, bullshit lies.

 

And even if we were to move to thorium, we would still need to dig up coal to feed existing plants while thorium ones came online.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Leonid said:

 

Please do me a solid. Open up Google Earth and search for the Adani mine.

 

It’s 130km away from any settlement larger than a farmhouse. That’s 110km larger than the Fukushima Exclusion Zone and 100km larger than the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone.

 

No black lung, no lead poisoning, no deforestation and no poisoning of rivers or the Great Artesian Basin will result from this mine if it sticks to parameters they’ve lawfully entered into agreement on.

I've been posting about Adani for a year or three at least. I think you should back up your Google search with some experience on the ground... I mean if you're really as certain about it all...

 

" if ", you say ?! I think even you must acknowledge that all mining ventures have faults. 

 

Pity it takes decades and decades for some to even consider a more balanced  look at our behaviour to this planet. No wonder the really smart buggers are trying so hard to get off it

 

Edited by eveln
Phone typing :(

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Adani certainly has been being debated for a long time.

 

By pure coincidence I was in a rather eclectic bookshop, Matilda's in Stirling in the Adelaide hills today and they had a book on the shelves about the controversy with the jacket blurb referring to it as possibly the stupidest mining venture ever.

 

No, I didn't buy it, tempting as it was but the shop owner commented that it is very popular.

 

The Adelaide Hills tend to be rather dominated by shall we say those of the hippie persuasion so I'm not surprised 🙂

 

Cheers

 

 

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3 hours ago, eveln said:

I've been posting about Adani for a year or three at least. I think you should back up your Google search with some experience on the ground... I mean if you're really as certain about it all...

 

Its not a google search. It’s google earth.

 

You can see that the closest settlement to it apart from a few farmhouses is 130km away.

 

I don’t know what else to tell you to make you understand: the effective exclusion zone is 100km larger in radius than Chernobyl’s.

 

3 hours ago, eveln said:

" if ", you say ?! I think even you must acknowledge that all mining ventures have faults. 

 

All ventures have faults. Do we stop building planes because they crash or because the 737MAX looks like one giant shortcut too far?

 

3 hours ago, eveln said:

Pity it takes decades and decades for some to even consider a more balanced  look at our behaviour to this planet. No wonder the really smart buggers are trying so hard to get off it

 

You’re implying that I don’t want humanity in space?

 

I’m firmly with the Musk statement that we as a species have no redundancy. We live on one planet and it takes just one asteroid to do in one day what coal hasn’t been able to do yet in 140+ years.

 

I’m also on board with Bezos’ idea re Blue Origin - moving all heavy industry to the moon.

 

And guess what power source is gonna get us to the levels where these impractical ideas become practical? Coal, Nuclear.

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🙂

 

An interesting way to look at it Leo.

 

FTR I completely agree, we are as a species one rock away from a return to the stone-age or extinction as we career through this shooting gallery called outer space.

 

Not so sure about the moon for heavy industry though, for materials yes but the micro-gravity of the Lagrange points appeals more.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

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