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how crap is this government ?

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43 minutes ago, Leonid said:

Frankly, we need the cheap labour

I'm sorry.

I thought we had wage regulation in this country. I mean seriously. Talk about corrupt behaviour.

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9 hours ago, eveln said:

I'm sorry.

I thought we had wage regulation in this country. I mean seriously. Talk about corrupt behaviour.

 

Cheap Labour != Illegal Labour.

 

I repeat again. We need cheap labour in this country.

10 hours ago, Nich... said:

You want us to side with Australia but are ok for our politicians to not side with our purported aims

 

Eh?

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1 hour ago, Leonid said:

Cheap Labour != Illegal Labour.

 

I repeat again. We need cheap labour in this country.

We only continue to need it cos the system is corrupted from the top down... so's by the time it gets to the farmer ( or the like ) they are forced to break the 'rules' ... 'bout time we tried a new approach don'tcha reckon ?

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referring back to Adani : just read a quick piece about a fire that swept through a Bangladeshi slum wiping out fifteen thousand ( 15000 ) dwellings  ...given the exchange rate, what would a few hundred thousand dollars do to have made those peoples homes more fire retardant ?

If the people behind Adani do actually have the Billions of dollars they purport to have, then I say " fucken shame on them "

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-18/bangladesh-slum-fire-destroys-thousands-of-homes/11425234

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, eveln said:

We only continue to need it cos the system is corrupted from the top down... so's by the time it gets to the farmer ( or the like ) they are forced to break the 'rules' ... 'bout time we tried a new approach don'tcha reckon ?

 

No.

 

Also we need it because we need people to shovel shit, pick fruit and clean toilets.

 

None of this requires significant brain power or special skills. It requires minimal functionality in your pre-frontal cortex.

 

As such, it is properly categorised as cheap labour and should never change as being a requirement.

Edited by Leonid

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1 hour ago, Leonid said:

 

Also we need it because we need people to shovel shit, pick fruit and clean toilets.

 

None of this requires significant brain power or special skills. It requires minimal functionality in your pre-frontal cortex.

 

As such, it is properly categorised as cheap labour and should never change as being a requirement. 

Or.

Our superior beings could devise ways of making these menial tasks ( that keep us ALL freer from disease, and thus prolongs our life) disappear . 

Truth be told, our superior beings actually need these people with their appropriate work skills to always exist, it makes the superior feel ;)

 

Really though, your thinking here is what, imo, helps to hold us all back

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🙂

 

Automation allows  for total shit shoveling, automated fruit pickers are replacing fruit picking, automated toilets self -- clean on the streets of Perth and the Japanese have had them in their homes for decades.

 

I think you might be a little out of date....   🙂

 

The tasks that fall to the uneducated man are being so rapidly replaced by tech that soon there will be precious little left.

 

A simple example - when did you last see a trench-digger ?

 

They vanished as a class of worker decades ago.

 

One of the few manual jobs that is going to be a while before it vanishes is tending verges and golf courses, both of which a friend of mine did for years until he retired recently.

 

He's not uneducated ,he just likes the work 🙂

 

Cheers

 

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Posted (edited)

nmd

Edited by eveln
chrisg got in between

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Automated fruit picking just means you move the pickers to somewhere else in the production chain: pickers are able to directly look at the health of the plants as they go and not pick bad fruit for collection but not leave it on the plant to risk disease.  Automate that and someone has to go do the checks manually on the plans, and the checks on the picked fruit to make sure comparable grades are being binned properly.

Anyway, the next time QLD floods, i guess we can expect the deputy PM to not advocate for farmers up there.  I mean, when they have to sell the farms from going bankfrupt, it'll just mean cheap labour for other farms, right.

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we don't need farms do we ? I mean we can just import everything ... we already are pretty well on the way to that anyway .

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1 hour ago, eveln said:

Or.

Our superior beings could devise ways of making these menial tasks ( that keep us ALL freer from disease, and thus prolongs our life) disappear . 

 

 

We are not all created equal

not everyone has the capability of being a nuclear scientist

 

What are those who have low IQs supposed to contribute to society?

(or do we test everyone at 5yo and cull the bottom 10%? )

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We need farms more than ever but we seem to fail to recognise that.

 

I do agree on fruit pickers Nich, for now, but AI just gets smarter by the day, it will not be long before there will be no need for human intervention, fruit will be reliably sorted and graded automatically. Further, fruit picking has always been a seasonal trade, typically done by backpackers, not sure I'd expect them to be especially proficient at grading fruit in the main.

 

Re Adani Ev, the fact is they are a corporation and corporations have no soul, they are driven completely by investors and stock price.

 

It is not unlikely that Adani had money in that shoddy building that burned down.

 

Bangladesh is in a near impossible situation of extreme poverty, massive corruption and in the end almost unable to govern itself.

 

The safety regulations barely exist, shoddy buildings are everywhere and that shows absolutely no sign of changing.

 

It is also in an almost unprecedented event a predominately Islamic nation that, after splitting from Pakistan, it used to be called "East Pakistan" regarded favorably by predominately Hindu India. But I doubt to the same degree that India, a chaotic nation itself, would first think, even if it entertained the thought, of looking after itself first.

 

The mentality of most all of these nations is  not founded on self sacrifice, it is founded upon looking after yourself first, last, and always. Ghandi was a decided anomaly and was assassinated as a consequence.

 

I utterly and totally agree with you that we should not have such people anywhere near our resources, but since the government of the day has approved the contract there is not much we can do beyond mutter about it.

 

Coal from the Adani mine will mostly end up in China, so what we should be doing is not worrying about some firetraps in Dahka but putting pressure on China to burn coal in a far, far, cleaner manner.

 

It is actually a lot simpler than some people would have you believe. You can scrub out and carbon-sink CO2 from coal emissions quite effectively, the Port Augusta power stations did so for decades. They do not exist any more because in one respect Morrison is quite correct, we are moving to renewable at as fast a rate as we can.

 

The PA stations were decommissioned and knocked down some years back now, no more brown coal being burned.

 

That cost a lot of jobs, at the mines, on the railroad, at the stations, but we did it and fuck all people seem to notice.

 

Now we are struggling to get funding for a major solar plant in PA. Having lived there I can tell you it would be a VERY good location for one and the skills to run the power conversion exist in the town. At the moment.

 

Personally I think it will get funded, one way or another, but it is not certain, not by any means. At the moment it is off the table, needs a white knight.

 

Morrison could do worse than to kick in a few hundred mil to get it back on track.

 

Part of the problem there is of course that little South Australia usually lacks a big enough voice in Canberra.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Nich... said:

Automated fruit picking just means you move the pickers to somewhere else in the production chain:

Nope doesn't happen. I grew spuds and swedes for fresh market and the last year I grew spuds for that company they had installed brand new equipment to automatically grade the produce as it went through the factory. So instead of a dozen people grading the veges you had one bod keeping half an eye on the line in case the machine missed a bad spud or it actually broke. Packing was pretty automated too so nowhere else in the production chain for them to go.

On the picking side, spuds still need a tractor operator and at least two people on the harvester, but that's waaaaaaay down from the dozens farmers used to employ to hand pick the spuds after the tractor mounted spud lifter had been through.

Swedes where still hand picked when we did them (crew of about a dozen on a 13 acre paddock) but now are all machine harvested and graded apparently.

As for the smartarse unskilled labour comments by some, they might consider it unskilled but from doing some myself and working with other pickers etc it is actually a skilled job, just a different skill set to sitting on your arse in an office.

A good example is the Swedes. A new picker or slacker would do 2 half tonne boxes a day if lucky. Someone with a bit of skill and knowledge could do 3 or 4 boxes a day and the swedes in the box would be trimmed better.

So don't blather on to me about "unskilled" labour.

 

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Oh, wasn't implying everyone kept their jobs.  I'm not sure what brand new harvesting machines do for berries, but I haven't seen them - still lots of work done by hand, and if there is a machine, it's grading by hand on it.

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🙂

 

Actually f that was directed at me Ali, I wasn't, I just know more than enough backpackers to know they are just looking for the next amount of money to move on to the next temp job.

 

It's a life style that I'm a tad too old for, but the idea is attractive 🙂

 

Cheers

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, TheManFromPOST said:

 

We are not all created equal

not everyone has the capability of being a nuclear scientist

Sure.

Quote

 

What are those who have low IQs supposed to contribute to society?

gee I don't know ... I'm sure there are other things necessary to a human's existence other than a high IQ ... but sure, I might be biased there

Quote

(or do we test everyone at 5yo and cull the bottom 10%? )

There are those that would consider that a viable course, if not perhaps they could offer massages or cut ones ingrowns

Edited by eveln
both this and my last few posts need to be treated as potent sarcasm

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Posted (edited)

In my business we have an informal policy of “no monkeys”.

 

We don’t hire people who have IT certifications, degrees. We hire people on the basis of ambition and potential, even if they know fuck all.

 

And we pay them well. I don’t have a single employee earning under six figures. Not one.

 

Here’s the logic.

 

I could hire 8 guys to jump a metre each or one guy who can jump 8m. The latter costs me $170k fully burdened and I respect him or I could hire 8 on $65k and want to punch their lights out because I gotta babysit them.

 

To put that into perspective, I would hire @twinair in a heartbeat despite the fact that he knows far less about my core technical requirements than I need. The ability to think is far far more important than tech skills, and even more importantly - if I’m going to pay someone in the high hundred $k, I want a commercial head on a broad set of shoulders. 

 

The problem is, that one bloke who can jump 8m is hard to find. The mediocrity in my field is amazing. So I gotta turf a lot of candidates before I pick one.

 

The second problem is that I need monkeys for my business to succeed.

 

Monkeys are easy to identify in my field. Three MCSEs but can’t tell me SMB TCP ports? Monkey. Use an android phone because you like to tinker? Probably a monkey. Can tell me the clock frequency of a current CPU by mode number? Monkey. Play computer games? Monkey.

 

But as I said, I need monkeys.

 

I can’t walk into a company of 300 skulls and say “I don’t do desktop support” if they want desktop support - because they’ll go straight to Brennan IT or some such joint that does have a baboon division. And I’ll lose the opportunity of delivering of what I do actually want to deliver.

 

So I do two things. I partner with an organisation that supplies me with monkeys and I try to optimise my systems to automate that which monkeys do.

 

But I can’t get rid of them - all I do is push them further down the chain. There’s no AI out there that can tell a user that they haven’t checked the monitor cable if the user has said they’ve already checked it. I need a monkey to get into his vehicle and drive out there.

 

So @eveln here’s what I don’t understand:

 

In the space of a page you’ve gone from defending low paid monkeys to suggesting we automate them away because you don’t want monkeys.

 

Think of the social consequences of making dumbarses unemployable because a robot can do their job? How are you gonna give people with genetic disabilities like Down Syndrome jobs when they’re largely not capable of anything too intellectually strenuous?

 

You wanna protect workers? Support cheap labour - that’s an option. AI is driven by cost-cutting. If keeping monkeys employed is cheaper the drift to AI is arrested.

 

Another way is to pressure government to make hiring workers cheaper. Because of fully burdened cost imposts, for every dollar you earn, the employer pays 30c in additional costs. Insurances, payroll taxes (which are fucken highway robbery), etc.

 

Edited by Leonid

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45 minutes ago, Leonid said:

suggesting we automate them away because you don’t want monkeys.

if you can't see sarcasm from someone you might have been reading with off and on for nearly a decade then I'd have to say you be too self involved / important, whatever

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5 minutes ago, eveln said:

if you can't see sarcasm from someone you might have been reading with off and on for nearly a decade then I'd have to say you be too self involved / important, whatever

 

Im just trying to square away your objections to cheap labour with the intelligent person I’ve conversed with over the years.

 

For the life of me I can’t work out why you object to it.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Leonid said:

For the life of me I can’t work out why you object to it.

Perhaps you could make a start by not calling manual labour "monkeys". I'm sure both the human and the monkey is offended by your type cast.

Why should someone be paid less for doing a job you feel is beneath your expertise ? We are not in Japan, so just now all the hands  on tasks are done by hands ... you said it yourself earlier cheap labour = illegal labour. Why on earth would I endorse that ?

 

 

Also, if everyone was as smart or smarter than you, you would not have a business , so it might pay you to get some humility sometime soon-ish

Edited by eveln

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What even is cheap labour in this country?  It's really rare to find a chef who is paid above the award minimum for someone who is freshly qualified.  Fruit picking rates probably wouldn't be so bad if a lot of areas then charged astronomical rates for housing to those seasonal workers.

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Manual labour is monkey work. It’s 100% repetitive and not creative. Creativity comes from higher up the chain.

 

Not all who do monkey work are monkeys. Some people just enjoy monkey work. I used to do demo for a few months. I fucken loved breaking down walls.

 

16 minutes ago, eveln said:

Why should someone be paid less for doing a job you feel is beneath your expertise?

 

Because they can’t do my job and I can do theirs. I just don’t want to because it’s boring is batshit and is monkey work.

 

18 minutes ago, eveln said:

you said it yourself earlier cheap labour = illegal labour. Why on earth would I endorse that ?

 

I feel like you should go and re-read what I wrote.

 

i wrote that cheap labour != illegal labour. 

 

The exclamation before the equals sign is worldwide pseudo code for “does not equal”. I’m not advocating illegal labour.

 

19 minutes ago, eveln said:

Also, if everyone was as smart or smarter than you, you would not have a business , so it might pay you to get some humility sometime soon-ish

 

By definition intelligence and smartness in our species is a bell curve.

 

There is always someone dumber and someone smarter than you so there will always be those who have the brains to establish a business (or never want to because that shit is life-ruining) and those that don’t (just don’t have a marketable skill, personality or capability).

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Not all monkey work is low paid.

Remote areas, shitty climates and jobs with physical risk can sometimes pay triple what a shelf-packer gets.

 

Watch Deadliest Catch on the TV?  Sometimes those guys make about $10K every 8 or 9 days - fair enough sometimes it's 28 hours straight then 6 hours to eat and sleep, but it's more money than 99% of the rest of us.

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47 minutes ago, Leonid said:

 

i wrote that cheap labour != illegal labour. 

 

The exclamation before the equals sign is worldwide pseudo code for “does not equal”. I’m not advocating illegal labour.

rightio . I was a bit bemused tbh

49 minutes ago, Leonid said:

 

Because they can’t do my job and I can do theirs. I just don’t want to because it’s boring is batshit and is monkey work.

just because it's boring as batshit for you does not make it a less worthwhile job. And as such does not require or entitle you to pay next to nothing for the services of someone doing the task for you

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Given some assumptions about Leo's income, eveln, you probably make next to nothing in comparison.  Unless you'd be happy to pay a lot more for coffee and food because those employees were getting paid what Leo gets paid.

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