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scruffy1

how crap is this government ?

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🙂

 

They will be what they want to be, which in the end is usually amazing 🙂

 

Cheers

 

 

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I guess the fundamental point I'm making is that an economy of the lowest common denominator - aka "The Kimmo Economy" is an economy that achieves nothing of what people like Kimmo dream of. It's not even negotiable - it truly is absolutely nothing.

 

Thus far (and I'm not discounting future tweaks), capitalism in whatever form we've got, has been the best economy for the poor, the middle class and has greatly aided human development at the fastest rate in history.

 

Nothing from our past in terms of theory or practice has ever come close, and most radical swaps have done the reverse.

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sorry leo, but your presumption of my dislike of the ultra rich is.... presumptuous

 

your idea of what is happiness and prosperity you are welcome to; i'm not attempting to make you agree to my perspective, or even to appreciate it, but differences of opinion cannot be simply ignored, with the emphasis in being simple to do so

 

 

 

success is not having kids being a "better" clone of yourself, it's about them being happy with achieving what they see as their goals

 

i can absolutely guarantee i am not a helicopter parent, more "comet"  that crosses their orbit periodically wrt organising their lives

 

nevertheless, i spent most of their younger life being present for a large part of each day and interacting with them, and they appear to be coherent and aware ( to your dismay, even more "woke" than i would be considered by you, despite my considerably politically incorrect take on most things even if you might think otherwise)

 

 

we can agree that capitalism is the best of all systems thus far, and way away from even vaguely being perfect

for the talented and privileged it works better than for those less so; the laughable idea that hard work will overcome generational adversity is a really popular one with those who are exceptional

 

if everyone was exceptional, that would be okay - but by definition exceptional isn't the norm

 

 

 

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And once you square away the idea that a society that caters for exceptionalism is the best society for those who aren’t exceptional... well that’s when you reach the zen that allows you to comprehend statements like “there is nothing worse than war except not going to war when war is required”.

 

And uh yeah - work WILL overcome generational adversity. The problem is generational adversity affects ambition, and can play to a victim narrative and once you’re a victim (and only a victim) in your own mind, that’s all you’ll ever be.

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2 minutes ago, Leonid said:

And once you square away the idea that a society that caters for exceptionalism is the best society for those who aren’t exceptional... well that’s when you reach the zen that allows you to comprehend statements like “there is nothing worse than war except not going to war when war is required”.

 

And uh yeah - work WILL overcome generational adversity. The problem is generational adversity affects ambition, and can play to a victim narrative and once you’re a victim (and only a victim) in your own mind, that’s all you’ll ever be.

 

catering for exceptionalism doesn't mean the average punter should starve if they aren't at the head table

 

overcoming adversity requires work, overcoming generational adversity is like expecting a cripple to win a sprint after being handicapped, and the elite athlete explaining their own success as being down to training

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🙂

 

I think that I will probably always find it bemusing that the rigors of communism has produced a supra-capitalist in Leo.

 

If you take either one of them too far you wind up with the other - try a thought exercise some time on that particular thought.

 

The biggest problem that you have Leo is an absolute conviction that you are RIGHT - no pal you are not, at best 50/50 but your future would be much brighter if you accepted that and planned accordingly.

 

Right now as we are in discourse Trump is bringing down the house, hopefully not too far but the fuckwit is showing his colors.

 

You have been an ardent supporter - how do you feel now ?

 

He's abandoned the Kurds, basically given Turkey to Putin - which does happen to involve some stray nukes and all he can do is call Perosi names - what a fucking useless role-model - I just hope we survive him.

 

Time for Plan B , dump the useless piece of shit.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, scruffy1 said:

overcoming adversity requires work, overcoming generational adversity is like expecting a cripple to win a sprint after being handicapped, and the elite athlete explaining their own success as being down to training


That’s complete BS. You’re not actually handicapped by being the descendants of slaves or of Jews or of Gypsies.

 

Do you know what is crippling? Sit down money. 
 

Sit down money is the worst thing in the world because it is a payment made by innocent people (usually wracked by white guilt) for something their great-great grandparents did to someone else’s great-great grandparents.

 

That sit down money is basically payment to people who have little structural limits to their progress in this day and age on the basis of what was done to their great-great grandparents. It encourages them to sit down and wallow in victimhood.

 

That’s generational adversity.

2 hours ago, chrisg said:

I think that I will probably always find it bemusing that the rigors of communism has produced a supra-capitalist in Leo.


I’m not a super-capitalist or anything like that. I’m just anti-left wing economics for the same reason I’m anti natural medicine. Because there’s no positive result from left-wing economics or from natural medicine, no matter how good they sound and no matter how convincing the charlatans peddling them are.

 

I like capitalism. I would like to make it better. But if you’re trying to make it better by things that just don’t fucken work and never have, you’re mad.

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the difference between sit down money and poor nutrition and educational paucity as a young child should be obvious even to someone of your narrow visual field

 

if you can't accept my simile regarding athletes as having any relevance, i'll make it simpler still

 

you are actually handicapped by having poor nutrition and lack of formal education, let alone the disadvantage of lacking positive role models because you live in a ghetto of recurrently hopeless (in the real sense of that word) ancestors - given your disparaging reference to sit down money suggests you are possibly on about indigenous under achievers

 

 

for all the other less coloured trash that find it hard to shake their ancestry, i will throw a guess that your people left the communist "nest" as fast as their non-compliance made practical

 

in which case, your ability to realise inbred hopelessness is absent

 

 

the fact that you reveal you think success is each generation being "better" than their parents speaks volumes of what your parents instilled in you

 

now invert that imperative, and recognise that the seeds of failure are planted in a very similar way

 

 

suggesting people can drag themselves out of congenital adversity with hard work is as useful as telling severely depressed people to harden the fuck up

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2 hours ago, scruffy1 said:

you are actually handicapped by having poor nutrition and lack of formal education

 

That is not a generational disadvantage. That should be obvious even to someone of your narrow visual field.

 

2 hours ago, scruffy1 said:

let alone the disadvantage of lacking positive role models because you live in a ghetto of recurrently hopeless (in the real sense of that word) ancestors

 

A good friend of mine went to the States on a dancing visa - she was one of the top in her age group until she quit a few years back to work as an angel investor - she smartly did a Commerce degree in Usyd just in case dancing wasn't forever...

 

2-3 years ago she married a black guy there. Said black guy was born in a town in Texas. His surname matches some white peoples' in nearby towns as his ancestors took the names of their owners.

 

His town is 80-90% black. Poor as shit. Money is a merry-go-round, half the kids don't know their fathers, the other half don't want to know their fathers.

 

"Sit down money" entered my lexicon from him. He hates the Democrats for what they've done to black families and black ambition with sit-down money and white guilt. In his words, the Democrats have been spending decades making sure the blacks don't leave the plantation.

 

(He's not a Republican either).

 

He's gone now - their marriage lasted for a little over 2 minutes... but... interesting...

 

So yeah - that kind of informs my world view. Everyone has a sob story to tell. Lots of people have been oppressed for generations. But that's not really true for a generation or two in this day and age in the West.

 

The same for Aborigines. We (non-Aboriginal Australia) demand that Western education, life expectancy and benefits of our taxes apply to them (ie access to health, education, jobs, etc) but then we allow them to form tiny communities in the middle of nowhere, pay them to do so and then give them rights over who comes onto their land. That is sit down money. How will they ever get the benefits of Western society when we pay them to remove themselves from it and make themselves so remote and so inaccessible that it is impossible to drag Western society and its supposed benefits to them?

 

We need an honest conversation in this country about the victim olympics going on because it detracts from a solution.

 

2 hours ago, scruffy1 said:

suggesting people can drag themselves out of congenital adversity with hard work is as useful as telling severely depressed people to harden the fuck up

 

The difference between one person being depressed by a certain setback and another jumping over it is a certain level of "hardening the fuck up". Off course different humans have different reactions - which is to say that for some generational disadvantage is a trigger for success. For others it just is - it stays. For others it's an excuse to sit on their brains and perpetuate the problem.

 

Defeating depression is finding out it's cause, and dealing with it by working through it.

 

It's amazing how many things get solved by working through or just working hard. One of those things is generational disadvantage.

 

The difference between you and me is that you think that people are incapable of being better than their circumstances. And I think they can and should be - every single one of them.

Edited by Leonid

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I find my self drawn to points that both you and scruffy1 make Leonid. It's tricky cos I wouldn't mind a meeting somewhere in there of the two thought streams . Somewhere back in this discourse you mentioned the latest " bugbear " you have given you want to put on your sixth staff member, pay role tax . I posit that particular tax is a thing cos some not so fucking bright sparks decided politicians and public servants needed 'special' inducements ( generous expense accounts ) and constant increases ( to keep in line with the CPI of course ) in their salaries. This ' objective body ' ( Remuneration something or other ) that decides for our public servants including politicians that they be in dire need of a salary increase needs a really good objective look at their objectivity. And I seriously hope all those people who felt / feel our pollies are hard done by take a frigging look at the calibre and shifty lookin' deeds of these same pollies ( wrt how they've worked the system and their elected positions to pad their own beds whilst making the rest of sleep rough )

Edited by eveln

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3 hours ago, eveln said:

I find my self drawn to points that both you and scruffy1 make Leonid. It's tricky cos I wouldn't mind a meeting somewhere in there of the two thought streams . Somewhere back in this discourse you mentioned the latest " bugbear " you have given you want to put on your sixth staff member, pay role tax . I posit that particular tax is a thing cos some not so fucking bright sparks decided politicians and public servants needed 'special' inducements ( generous expense accounts ) and constant increases ( to keep in line with the CPI of course ) in their salaries. This ' objective body ' ( Remuneration something or other ) that decides for our public servants including politicians that they be in dire need of a salary increase needs a really good objective look at their objectivity. And I seriously hope all those people who felt / feel our pollies are hard done by take a frigging look at the calibre and shifty lookin' deeds of these same pollies ( wrt how they've worked the system and their elected positions to pad their own beds whilst making the rest of sleep rough )

 

The points I make are in practise in the capitalist economies all socialists love: the Scandinavian nations.

 

My opinion is as follows:

- Companies should be rewarded for employing more people, not penalised

- If you're going to have the world's highest minimum wage, you'd better have other levers at a different level to constrain living costs. You can't run high labour costs, high taxes, high immigration and low infrastructure spending. It just doesn't work. Most importantly you can't complain about millionaires and billionaires because guess what - it's actually not their fault.

- Pulling shit out of the ground is no way to maintain economic exceptionalism. Where's our startup scene?

- Why have we not tried to offer tax breaks to any industry other than Hollywood to shoot trash here? Where's our fucken space ports? Where's our rocket testing ranges?

- Every private school should be forced to have a small boarding house where 5-15 Aboriginal students live and get to attend the school. These kids should be aptitude tested for suitability - but the idea is that private schools offer the best post-grad networks, so giving these kids from FuckenNowhere, back of WA some sort of opportunity, might actually lift the shithouse standards sit down money from leftie twerps has enforced across our indigenous people. I'd argue that they were probably better off under the White Australia Policy than under the present policy where they're paid to sit at the back of the bus that we call the Economic Express. We literally replaced the White Australia Policy with a policy that keeps them down by paying them to be useless.

Edited by Leonid

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Hmm.

 

No mention of Mr Trump, who has now announced he will be hosting G7 next year at one of his properties in direct disregard of the constitution I see...

 

Before mandating that all private schools have a token attendance of Aboriginals it might just pay to ask them if they want that.

 

You seem to think Australia is partaking in some variant of Apartheid, which it most certainly is not. The lot of the Aboriginal is far from ideal it is true but other than racism no barriers exist to prevent their having as little or as much involvement in Australian society as they wish. Many of them do not want much if any involvement. Unfortunately it is not possible to legislate racism out of existence.

 

However on your objection to payroll tax I completely agree, it makes absolutely no sense at all in a country that is experiencing rising unemployment.

 

Cheers

 

 

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If it came across that way - that was not my intention. I am in no way accusing Australia of apartheid.

 

What I am accusing activists of is extreme racism. The racism of low expectations.

 

This posits that the Aborigine can never achieve anything because of past ACTUAL apartheid and therefore needs to be paid sit down money to sit on his brain in a reservation.
 

By maintaining this status quo the activist is satisfied that their white guilt is taken care of and who really cares that the effect of the money is self-imposed exile by the Aborigine who knows he’s worthless?

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Hmm,

 

It is as rather usual a tendency by most people to define a race rather than as individuals.

 

There probably are some Aboriginals that take the easy money but from personal experience I can tell you that many do not. I've had dealings with Aboriginals at many levels including high corporate, it really is that you just do not see them so much in Sydney.

 

Sydney is NOT Australia, thank Christ for that 🙂

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Leonid said:

 we allow them to form tiny communities in the middle of nowhere, pay them to do so and then give them rights over who comes onto their land. That is sit down money. How will they ever get the benefits of Western society when we pay them to remove themselves from it and make themselves so remote and so inaccessible that it is impossible to drag Western society and its supposed benefits to them?

 

you are so far off the mark

 

the small communities we "allow them to form"  are actually the pogroms where dispossessed custodians of tribal lands were moved so that private enterprise could dig up the ground they used to inhabit for the treasures underneath

 

the aborigines of northern queensland (as a prime example) were forcibly transported to allow this to happen, and left in bumfuckistan west without connection to their tribal land, or opportunity - you don't assimilate a stone-age culture to western in a single step, but you do devastate their society that easily

 

 

the "rights" over who comes on to "their" land in such a situation is non-existent

 

 

 

 

arguably they got off better than being shot, or poisoned, or killed by communicable diseases to which they had no intrinsic immunity

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Leonid said:

 

(lots of other stuff, and...)

 

The difference between you and me is that you think that people are incapable of being better than their circumstances. And I think they can and should be - every single one of them.

 

 

no

 

the difference is i understand exceptional people will always improve their lot if that's their decision, and they are the exception (the adjective is the kicker)

 

and the less capable (through inadequate education and opportunity, mental illness, poor upbringing and a myriad of other confounding life experiences) will have little hope of achieving much, without guidance and support

 

 

your approach is that " finding out its cause, and dealing with it by working through it. " will fix that

 

sadly, insight into depression doesn't stop it from continuing (would it were so easy)

and yes, working through it in terms of being better than circumstances suggests that there is a possibility for people to spontaneously bloom - that's a nice fantasy, but it's unrealistic

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54 minutes ago, scruffy1 said:

you are so far off the mark

 

And I'm afraid you can't even see it.

 

54 minutes ago, scruffy1 said:

the small communities we "allow them to form"  are actually the pogroms where dispossessed custodians of tribal lands were moved so that private enterprise could dig up the ground they used to inhabit for the treasures underneath

 

And?

 

Do you realise that if we were to suppose that pre-colonisation living is what they want, then post-colonisation benefits at such distances from actual current centres of civilisation - has a price?

 

You cannot put a hospital 700km from anywhere to service a group of 100. You just can't.

 

The past is over.

 

The only way Aborigines "get better" is by letting go of elements of the past. Every single group in the world has had to do that.

 

That means we have to find ways to entice them to NOT live in this little exile among the desert. And that starts with ending sit down money that lets them exist in those reservations in such sorry states.

 

54 minutes ago, scruffy1 said:

the aborigines of northern queensland (as a prime example) were forcibly transported to allow this to happen, and left in bumfuckistan west without connection to their tribal land, or opportunity - you don't assimilate a stone-age culture to western in a single step, but you do devastate their society that easily

 

Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to be on your indigenous/traditional/lore land to function as a human being or seek opportunities.

 

I'm not in Israel. I don't need to be in Israel to make something of myself after communism, etc.

 

I don't think I'm better than an Aborigine.

 

54 minutes ago, scruffy1 said:

and yes, working through it in terms of being better than circumstances suggests that there is a possibility for people to spontaneously bloom - that's a nice fantasy, but it's unrealistic

 

It's also the recommended cure for depression: working through it and making required changes.

 

Edited by Leonid

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So circumstance doesn't change what you can achieve but people shouldn't get "shut up sit down money" because that circumstance prevents them achieving? 

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16 minutes ago, fliptopia said:

So circumstance doesn't change what you can achieve but people shouldn't get "shut up sit down money" because that circumstance prevents them achieving? 


*sigh*
 

In one ear... out the other...

 

If you keep telling someone they’re worthless and pay them to stay worthless, then it’s unsurprising that they remain worthless. For some that’s not enough. For most it is. It’s how lots of women stay with abusive husbands.

 

If you stop paying them to stay worthless, they won’t be made to feel generationally worthless and more of them will be forced to or will want to change their circumstances...
 

Sit down money increases the likelihood of someone not changing their circumstances.

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you can see other people's experiences through your eyes leo, but you are blind to how it looks through theirs

 

as for the recommended "cure" for depression, i don't believe you have any qualification to prognosticate on that treatment

 

 

if you keep telling yourself people can do it your way, they still won't be you

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1 hour ago, Leonid said:


*sigh*
 

In one ear... out the other...

 

If you keep telling someone they’re worthless and pay them to stay worthless, then it’s unsurprising that they remain worthless. For some that’s not enough. For most it is. It’s how lots of women stay with abusive husbands.

 

If you stop paying them to stay worthless, they won’t be made to feel generationally worthless and more of them will be forced to or will want to change their circumstances...
 

Sit down money increases the likelihood of someone not changing their circumstances.

 

I just think your being very selective about what circumstances matter

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27 minutes ago, fliptopia said:

 

I just think your being very selective about what circumstances matter


I’m very selective about not making bad circumstances worse and entrenched, yes.

 

Do we differ on that?

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36 minutes ago, scruffy1 said:

you can see other people's experiences through your eyes leo, but you are blind to how it looks through theirs


Even if that were true, and it’s clearly not - the fact is at least I don’t believe a sob story (individual or ethnic) makes you inferior and incapable.

 

36 minutes ago, scruffy1 said:

as for the recommended "cure" for depression, i don't believe you have any qualification to prognosticate on that treatment


Ah that old chestnut.

 

Go to any authoritative psychology definition site you care to find.

 

Tell me how depression is cured?

 

FYI, I’m also not a climate scientist but the solution to global warming is emitting fewer GHGs collectively than we did in 1950.

 

How am I doing this far? I can tell you a whole bunch of other shit I’m totally not qualified for but that forms basic general knowledge of everyone with a somewhat functional frontal cortex.

Edited by Leonid

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9 hours ago, Leonid said:

 

The points I make are in practise in the capitalist economies all socialists love: the Scandinavian nations.

 

My opinion is as follows:

- Companies should be rewarded for employing more people, not penalised

Gosh I thought they were

9 hours ago, Leonid said:

 

- If you're going to have the world's highest minimum wage, you'd better have other levers at a different level to constrain living costs. You can't run high labour costs, high taxes, high immigration and low infrastructure spending. It just doesn't work. Most importantly you can't complain about millionaires and billionaires because guess what - it's actually not their fault.

Unless the millionairs and billionaires you mention, are our politicians I generally don't complain too much at all about them.

 

"- Pulling shit out of the ground is no way to maintain economic exceptionalism. Where's our startup scene? "

Where's our manufacturing industry that was incentivised to go offshore for cheap labor about thirty odd years ago ?

 

" - Why have we not tried to offer tax breaks to any industry other than Hollywood to shoot trash here? Where's our fucken space ports? Where's our rocket testing ranges? "

Well I reckon it's cos we pay tooo much money to our past and present pollies and our public service and in foreign investment and aid ...

 

9 hours ago, Leonid said:

 

- Every private school should be forced to have a small boarding house where 5-15 Aboriginal students live and get to attend the school. These kids should be aptitude tested for suitability - but the idea is that private schools offer the best post-grad networks, so giving these kids from FuckenNowhere, back of WA some sort of opportunity, might actually lift the shithouse standards sit down money from leftie twerps has enforced across our indigenous people. I'd argue that they were probably better off under the White Australia Policy than under the present policy where they're paid to sit at the back of the bus that we call the Economic Express. We literally replaced the White Australia Policy with a policy that keeps them down by paying them to be useless.

Can you imagine the uproar from the private school and the Gov. handouts they would want on top of existing monies ? There are already projects that have been established and are on going for the youth of out back communities, it's actually far more progressive than you might realise ... at least in this neck of the woods it is.

----

Also , re a comment you made just now Leonid. Not all aborigines will want to get on board the ' white western train ' you know. Just like not all white westerners want to get on it either.  ... just sayin' diversity is okay.

 

[ there is no reason, other than I could not seem to continue breaking the quote up, for the different layout in my post ]

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4 minutes ago, Leonid said:


I’m very selective about not making bad circumstances worse and entrenched, yes. 

 

 

a noble aim, although your methodology to achieve that outcome is monotonously flawed

 

per your protocol, the answer is fiscal, and the success is if you are leo, or something like leo, or those people that leo aspires to emulate

 

 

your expectations disregard other people's motivations, unless they accord with yours precisely - it's the major problem of the capitalist paradigm to measure monetary gain as the most important parameter, and absolutely refuse to hear that isn't a universal appraisal

 

 

as for expecting to culturally assimilate indigenous people because they have no choice - it's that very lack of choice that destroys motivation

 

"be like me or perish" is a death sentence to anyone who doesn't choose your offering

 

 

if success can only be your brand of success, please accept that it's successful for you only

 

9 minutes ago, Leonid said:


Even if that were true, and it’s clearly not - the fact is at least I don’t believe a sob story (individual or ethnic) makes you inferior and incapable.

 

 

even though it is transparently obvious to non-leo observers, you just can't buy it

 

i don't think a sob story makes anyone inferior, but i do understand it illustrates their personal view point - the one you can't seem to visualise as you don't "see" how that could possibly be

 

 

9 minutes ago, Leonid said:

Go to any authoritative psychology definition site you care to find.

 

Tell me how depression is cured?

 

 

i was educated in psychology and  psychiatry as part of training

 

 

i'll tell you depression isn't "cured"

 

it might be effectively treated, by pharmacological or non-pharmacological interventions, but your seemingly binary approach to complex issues might not feel comfortable with the paradox of individuality that extends beyond mood and encompasses motivation via rewards that you don't empathise with

 

imagine someone is motivated by something, and it's not essentially money - there's an interesting concept for you to consider

 

 

12 minutes ago, Leonid said:

FYI, I’m also not a climate scientist but the solution to global warming is emitting fewer GHGs collectively than we did in 1950.

 

How am I doing this far? I can tell you a whole bunch of other shit I’m totally not qualified for but that forms basic general knowledge of everyone with a somewhat functional frontal cortex.

 

 

 

your impressive presumption of knowledge merely reveals that you lack the finesse to appreciate that no-one actually knows much, and i'm quite happy to say i know plenty, but it isn't a lot, and i disagree with your prismatic aberration of society

 

the more certain people are that they are right, the more i accept that they confuse self-righteousness with clarity

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Leonid said:


I’m very selective about not making bad circumstances worse and entrenched, yes.

 

Do we differ on that?

 

Not on that as an over arching maxim. No. I'm thinking more that you seem to have a narrow view of what is a bad/worse circumstance. 

 

I see a person as their situation (or circumstance). You have a brain composed how ever it is with both concious thought and more primal desires/urges, a body with what it has and what you feed it and the brain is impacted by all the experiences of life. The decision you make today might not be the decision you would make tomorrow because somethings change but maybe it will be the same as often things stay reasonably the same. So that is aituation/circumstance. Your whole of physical existence. 

 

It's basically why you can't choose a belief about anything. About religion, about what would be good for breakfast, about how to get yourself in a happier situation. In fact most people's beliefs about what makes them happy constantly are at odds with with what actually makes them happy at least some of the time and in most cases a lot of the time. 

 

How does one in a circumstance where they don't believe they can do better and don't have the skills or know how to access the knowledge to unlock the skills to make their situation better go about improvement? It basically comes down to luck. Your best hope is to hear/see the right thing at the right time when you have inspiration (which is another thing you don't really choose to have)  or to give you the inspiration and maybe if the rest of your circumstance doesn't get in your way you can get somewhere. 

 

Your prescription of just working through it reminds me of the brand of Christian who tells you that you don't believe in their god because you haven't prayed enough or read the bible correctly or just gone to church enough or in the right way. They can't accept that you might have just looked at the same stuff and heard the same things and come to a different conclusion because to them it's so damn obvious that if you saw what they saw you would believe what they do. 

 

Everyone wants to believe in the true thing. Either some (lots) have to be wrong - given the number of different beliefs and opinions out there or there are a bunch of different truths or different ways going about things that lead to tglhe same result or varying results that are right for different people. 

 

/here endeth the insufferable ramble that may or may not make sense to another reader. 

Edited by fliptopia

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